Chavez- at it again

[rvg]

His cause is just though. The same can't be said about Exxon Mobile.

Exxon is in it for the money. Chavez is in it for the money and the power. Hello, pot, I am kettle.

[Ice]

A global recession which... China is going to be completely immune from - don't believe me, it's the IMF that said it. China's GDP growth is going to be completely unaffected, predicted at 10% growth this year.

What's this got to do with the US refining Venezuelan heavy crude?

What's this have to do with the fact global oil prices will still fall during a recession?

[Ice]

Exxon Mobile is a thoroughly corrupt company, in that they have no reservations for paying off corrupt state officials to get their way.

It's about time they got smacked. It's well deserved.

Except they aren't really getting smacked, now are they?

Seems the opposite is happening.

[Tribesman]

Except they aren't really getting smacked, now are they?

That depends on the outcome of the courtcase , I cannot really see a court finding in their favour since they chose to pull out of the deal , most of the others accepted the deal .
Exxons pull out was more to do with the changes to its tax bill , which it would have a very very hard time pushing through the courts .
So in short Exxons attempts are a rather lame effort at applying pressure .
Now several people have been going on about how it is the US that refines Venezuelas oil , what proportion of those US refineries that process Venezuelas oil are actually owned by Venezuela itself ?

[Xiahou]

Now several people have been going on about how it is the US that refines Venezuelas oil , what proportion of those US refineries that process Venezuelas oil are actually owned by Venezuela itself ?

Not many if Exxon wins in court.

Besides, whoever owns them- they're still in the US. Is Hugo going to ship oil to the US to be refined only to load it back onto tankers and ship it all to another country? I think not.

[Tribesman]

Not many if Exxon wins in court.

Thats a very very big IF

So if they do by some miracle win and sieze refineries set up for the heavy crude what are they gonna do with them ?
Perhaps Exxon can sell them to get the money(large amounts of money) that they owe the American tax payer .

Is Hugo going to ship oil to the US to be refined only to load it back onto tankers and ship it all to another country? I think not.

What you mean like transhipments via refineries sorta like all the oil companies do ?
Hmmmmm...transhipments , there is something in that word that is sorta suggestive of them floating thingies.....errrr...ships perhaps .
Now Venezuela wouldn't have been doing something like a massive increase in its floaty things for carrying oil products would it ?
Tankers I think they is called .

As I said...

He may be an idiot , but he isn't completely stupid , he plans ahead .

So new ports , new terminals , new pipelines , new refineries , new contracts and errr..... new oil tankers .
Do you sorta get the slight impression that he saw this coming ?

[Xiahou]

Here's some more info .

"For the market this means that the probability of Exxon winning an arbitration against PdVSA is high," said Alberto Ramos, an analyst with Goldman Sachs in New York.

PdVSA claims to produce 3.2 million barrels of crude a day, but the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries and other industry associations put its production closer to 2.4 million barrels a day.

PdVSA officials claim the company is on track to raise production, but its latest moves appear to reflect concern about its production capacity.

In recent days PdVSA has struck new agreements with Total, Statoil and Royal Dutch Shell PLC (RDSA) in a bid to expand production in mature fields across the country. Still, PdVSA has problems with aging oil infrastructure, and continues to struggle to secure needed oil rigs.

Yup, sounds like they're in great shape.

And you've got to love Chavez's response:

"Exxon Mobil is an imperialist bandit," Chavez said Sunday during his radio and television show. "If (Exxon) really freezes us...if you hurt us...We won't send any oil to the United States."

Yes, that's right- he's taking the spoiled brat approach- threatening to take his ball and go home.
Too bad for him that he can't make good on the threat:

Few believe the president will cut off the Andean country's main business partner, especially since most of the refineries outside Venezuela capable of processing its extra-heavy crude are located on U.S. soil.

Tribes may believe that Chavez is going to ship his crude to the US for it to be refined, load it back onto tankers, ship it back to South America, pump it across pipelines, load it back onto tankers, and ship it to Asia- but most people (including those who actually know the industry) realize that's completely unworkable.

[Beirut]

Even if China and India need to build new plants to process Venezuela`s oil, Hugo can offset their costs by selling them oil at less than market price, still pull in a tidy profit, and maybe trade some (lots of) oil for weapons.

If Hugo has a steady stream of Chinese flag supertankers in port under a fifty-year contract, and a whack of new fighters and SAMs parked at Chavez International, he`s going to be the new Castro and his administration could well last past several US presidents. Latin and South America might see this guy as Che incarnate, fostering strong and defiant anti-US sentiment across the south, and the US might not want to bomb or invade a country full of Chinese engineers (and military advisors) at the same time as they owe China their first born in past due interest payments. Also, China could say ''You mess with Venezuela and threaten our oil imports and Taipei is going to be a smoking ruin by lunch.''

Even if the physical and monetary outcome of a deal like this was less than intended, even if it tanked completely, it would have a devastating psychological impact on US power in the region.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Even if China and India need to build new plants to process Venezuela`s oil, Hugo can offset their costs by selling them oil at less than market price, still pull in a tidy profit, and maybe trade some (lots of) oil for weapons.

If Hugo has a steady stream of Chinese flag supertankers in port under a fifty-year contract, and a whack of new fighters and SAMs parked at Chavez International, he`s going to be the new Castro and his administration could well last past several US presidents. Latin and South America might see this guy as Che incarnate, fostering strong and defiant anti-US sentiment across the south, and the US might not want to bomb or invade a country full of Chinese engineers (and military advisors) at the same time as they owe China their first born in past due interest payments. Also, China could say ''You mess with Venezuela and threaten our oil imports and Taipei is going to be a smoking ruin by lunch.''

Even if the physical and monetary outcome of a deal like this was less than intended, even if it tanked completely, it would have a devastating psychological impact on US power in the region.

Right, because the U.S. is just a clipped-wing country full of dancing nancies... oh wait - that's Canada. South of the border, we'll find a way to deal with any threats without totally caving.

[Beirut]

Right, because the U.S. is just a clipped-wing country full of dancing nancies... oh wait - that's Canada. South of the border, we'll find a way to deal with any threats without totally caving.

Of course we`re good dancers, it`s how we get the chicks.

So if Hugo dances with China, and they hug oh so tightly, just how would a South of the Border gentleman cut in?

[Caius]

Hugo scaped from the mental hospital. That explains everything.

[TevashSzat]

IMO, Chavez won't last very long. His support with the people is already waning and could be seen in his failed constitutional amendment which would've allowed him to extend his term as president.

[CountArach]

IMO, Chavez won't last very long. His support with the people is already waning and could be seen in his failed constitutional amendment which would've allowed him to extend his term as president.

Actually all of the polling data on approval ratings that I have seen from various polling companies show him still way higher than most western leaders. I didn't read one that was below 60%.

[Idaho]

Chavez is what he is. He's a populist and a demagogue.

However he is overturning over one hundred years of US colonialism in south america - and the US doesn't like it when one of the pets down south starts actually asking for a fair slice of the pie - or heaven forfend - plays a bit of business hard ball.

The US had this in the post for a long time.

[KukriKhan]

One other factor to consider is that Exxon is not just some guy in a suit with a Snidely Whiplash twirly moustache, it's a corporation that gets its funding from Barclays, Vangard, JPMorgan Chase, Goldman Sachs, and the like. Who are those guys?

Managers of (among other things) US pension plans - that supposed 15% we save from our paychecks for retirement - because Soc. Security is gonna be gone by 2018.

So, in essense, Exxon-R-us.

The Simon Legree's running those companies are gonna do fine. If anybody has to lose money, it'll be the pension plans.

I wonder if Chavez considers this at all; or if it's just "If it's American it's teh evil."

[Ironside]

One other factor to consider is that Exxon is not just some guy in a suit with a Snidely Whiplash twirly moustache, it's a corporation that gets its funding from Barclays, Vangard, JPMorgan Chase, Goldman Sachs, and the like. Who are those guys?

Managers of (among other things) US pension plans - that supposed 15% we save from our paychecks for retirement - because Soc. Security is gonna be gone by 2018.

So, in essense, Exxon-R-us.

The Simon Legree's running those companies are gonna do fine. If anybody has to lose money, it'll be the pension plans.

I wonder if Chavez considers this at all; or if it's just "If it's American it's teh evil."

Would you then actually consider to pay more for Exxon oil? To ensure that the company's wellbeing isn't in danger, making it certain that the pension plans will go well.

[KukriKhan]

Would you then actually consider to pay more for Exxon oil? To ensure that the company's wellbeing isn't in danger, making it certain that the pension plans will go well.

That sounds a bit like an artificial prop-up tactic, but...

it seems we US gas-consumers pay about 50% less at the pump than most of the western world. I wouldn't mind paying up to about $6 per gallon (twice what I paid yesterday), IF I knew that the extra money was going into research and development of new energy sources, and not just lining the pockets of CEO's and money managers (or worse yet: politicians).

[Ice]

That sounds a bit like an artificial prop-up tactic, but...

it seems we US gas-consumers pay about 50% less at the pump than most of the western world. I wouldn't mind paying up to about $6 per gallon (twice what I paid yesterday), IF I knew that the extra money was going into research and development of new energy sources, and not just lining the pockets of CEO's and money managers (or worse yet: politicians).

That's wishful thinking.

Anyway, I'd rather she alternative energy through government sponsored tax break and SMALL grants, rather than basically a sin tax.

[Vladimir]

That's wishful thinking.

Anyway, I'd rather she alternative energy through government sponsored tax break and SMALL grants, rather than basically a sin tax.

You don't need $6 gas to do that. It will cause little more than short term pain. Oil prices are near or above the threshold where other forms of energy become profitable.

[Idaho]

I wonder if Chavez considers this at all; or if it's just "If it's American it's teh evil."

What Chavez says in these statements, and the real game are two different things.

He is trying to keep the maximum money from Venezualan oil in the country. Exxon is trying to take the maximum amount out of the country. On the one side you have a country which previously had a small wealthy US-backed elite - kept in power and comfortable providing they carried on supervising the export of wealth. Now you have someone who is turning that around. The US don't like it, the old elite hate it, and the poor of the country are getting a bigger slice of the pie.

Oh yeah - and a massive rich US company is going to take a whipper

[Tribesman]

Yup, sounds like they're in great shape.

Interesting , you bold this part ...

Still, PdVSA has problems with aging oil infrastructure, and continues to struggle to secure needed oil rigs.

Now tell me which of those compamies listed does not also have that problem ? how many worldwide do not have that problem ?
Hey Xiahou if you want to focus on a passage and put the emphasis on one part of that passage then it might be a good idea if you actually thought first , since highlighting one companies problems to show how bad it is doesn't work when all the other companies have the same problem .

Tribes may believe that Chavez is going to ship his crude to the US for it to be refined, load it back onto tankers, ship it back to South America, pump it across pipelines, load it back onto tankers, and ship it to Asia- but most people (including those who actually know the industry) realize that's completely unworkable.

Well I must say , despite some pretty strenous earlier efforts on your part , that this certainly surpasses them all as the biggest pile of nonsense you have ever written on this forum .
Congratulations .

[Xiahou]

Oh yeah - and a massive rich US company is going to take a whipper

If anything, the asset freeze that's been granted indicates there may be merit in Exxon's case. I'd expect them to win.

[Caius]

Actually all of the polling data on approval ratings that I have seen from various polling companies show him still way higher than most western leaders. I didn't read one that was below 60%.

How on Earth that can happen?

[Tribesman]

If anything, the asset freeze that's been granted indicates there may be merit in Exxon's case.

You mean that it managed to make it past the "barely capable of serious arguement" benchmark neccesary to secure an order .

How on Earth that can happen?

Its quite simple really Caius .
It can happen because some of his policies are actually not bad and some are quite good .
Large parts of the population have been screwed badly by former regimes , it is elements of those former regimes that form the main opposition , so when the choice is someone who may turn out bad and someone you know for sure is corrupt and is going to screw you over again at the first chance the probability is that the one who may turn out to be bad will be more popular than the one you already know is bad .
If the opposition wasn't so much of a bunch of idiots then perhaps Chavez wouldn't be able to get so much support in Venezuela .

[Idaho]

If anything, the asset freeze that's been granted indicates there may be merit in Exxon's case. I'd expect them to win.

Heheheh. There are many things in this world that I agree with, many things I understand, and even a fair few I can empathise with at a distance. But cheerleading for powerful multinational corporations is not one of them

[Proletariat]

I'll cheer them all day, when you consider that their competition is mostly made up of state run Oilocracies who answer to no one and oppress their own populations, Exxon isn't that high on my list of companies that just have to go.

[Goofball]

Chavez is an idiot.

[Tribesman]

I'll cheer them all day, when you consider that their competition is mostly made up of state run Oilocracies who answer to no one and oppress their own populations

Wheras Exxon just gives money to brutal dictatorships who oppress their populations , because its good for business ....so they must be OK to cheer really .

[Marshal Murat]

Alea iacta est

[CountArach]

Alea iacta est

So much for sabre rattling.