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  1. #1
    Member Member Radier's Avatar
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    Default Skándzá

    Hi, I was wondering if someone knew the english name of the peoples living in modern Sweden 272 bc. I suppose the information is roughly uncertain, but are there any roman or greek sources which give us some names at all?

    In most of the germanic settlements you can easily guess the tribes name by the word after "Gáwjám". What does Skandzawarjoz translate in english? Or Gotanoz? Is the latter by any chance the Gots, more known from the migrating period a couple of hundred years later?

    Shed light on this, those who dare, thanks.
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    Βασιλευς και Αυτοκρατωρ Αρχης Member Centurio Nixalsverdrus's Avatar
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    Default AW: Skándzá

    Well, I don't know. I think that the Romans and Greeks were not aware of the existence of Scandinavia in 272BC. Afaik they encountered Germans for the first time directly prior to the battle of Noreia around 113BC. I think Skandzawarjoz means "Skanza warriors", and the Gotanoz are just the Goths.

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    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Skándzá

    Radier,

    Not that I know anything, but please see 'Philemon, Xenophon Lampsacenus,' and 'Pytheas.' I think Gaius Julius Solinus referred to Xenophon Lampsacenus, as well, I think Pytheas dates to the 4th century BC. Not sure about Philemon, he's a greek, but may be as late as Aug?

    From Caius Plinius Secundus' NATURALIS HISTORIAE, Book 4, citing the 4th century BC report of Xenophon Lampsacenus...

    [Chapter 13]

    [Line 95]
    Philemon Morimarusam a Cimbris vocari, hoc est mortuum mare, inde usque ad promunturium Rusbeas, ultra deinde Cronium. Xenophon Lampsacenus a litore Scytharum tridui navigatione insulam esse inmensae magnitudinis Balciam tradit, eandem Pytheas Basiliam nominat. feruntur et Oeonae, in quibus ovis avium et avenis incolae vivant, aliae, in quibus equinis pedibus homines nascantur, Hippopodes appellati, Phanesiorum aliae, in quibus nuda alioqui corpora praegrandes ipsorum aures tota contegant.

    Rendering
    Philemon claims the Cimbri's word Morimarusam, means the Dead Sea, there upwards towards the Rusbeas promontory, opposite of Cronium. There, Xenophon Lampsacenus sailed three days along the coast of Scytharum (error as it should be Scatinavum) to obtain a measurement of the distance to the Balciam Isle. Pytheas mentioned the very same names, the Basiliam and Oeonae isles, on whose wild coasts dwell sheep and wild-oats, according to the populace they produce a device called Hippopodes (horseshoe?) for the feet of their houses, from Phanesiorum, another report that someone stripped an ancient entombed corpse that was entirely over laid in gold.

    [Line 96]
    Incipit deinde clarior aperiri fama ab gente Inguaeonum, quae est prima in Germania. mons Saevo ibi, inmensus nec Ripaeis iugis minor, inmanem ad Cimbrorum usque promunturium efficit sinum, qui Codanus vocatur, refertus insulis, quarum clarissima est Scatinavia, inconpertae magnitudinis, portionem tantum eius, quod notum sit, Hillevionum gente quingentis incolente pagis: quare alterum orbem terrarum eam appellant. nec minor est opinione Aeningia.

    Rendering
    Now to clearly begin recounting the fame of the nations of Inguaeonum (followers of Ing?), which are the closest of Germany. Recently, the area between Mount Saevo and Ripaeis has not been continuously surveyed. All the way up to the promontory of Cimbrorum where the facing tide has caused a bowl shaped curve, that is called Codanus (The Tail). This is a place crowded with islands, that are distinct from Sweden, where except for that which is known, is a region of undefined magnitude, as likewise is much of its shape. In this district dwell the Hillevionum nation of 500 cantons, where formerly not as subordinates acquired land in this territory from those believed to be the Aeningia.

    -------------
    The information in Line 96 may date to the late 1st century BC or early 1st century AD, yet some of the descriptive part may have come from the Xenophon Lampsacenus report.

    This may or may not answer the 1st part of your question? I think not, but this I believe, is all there is.
    Last edited by cmacq; 02-11-2008 at 05:44.
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    Default Re: Skándzá

    Thank you cmacq for the translations. My latin is a bit rusty.

    I wonder what the word Scatinavum means...
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    Default Re: Skándzá

    Well, unfortunately due to time/work limitations with coding, ect. in EB1 (the map is finalized), so I have no part in the names of Germanic provinces or settlements. I believe SaFe and Thiudareiks worked on that, but I could be wrong.

    the Sviones were the tribe which Sweden became named after- the capital is northward, near Uppsala... at the time, Skandinavia was split into more sub-kingdoms than Anglo-Saxon England (read the Heimskringla - great read).

    The Gaut/Geat inhabit southern Sweden between the lakes and get absorbed like the Picts by the Scots.

    The Danes are living on the furthest southern tip of Sweden: Skāne (Scania), their homeland for a long time before slowly conquering / jumping the Danish islands over to Jutland, where whatever remnnants were left after migration from the flooding during the beginning of the mini-Ice Age, those West Germanic (versus their East Norse dialect] Jutes and Anglo-Saxo-Frieslanders who were absorbed all the way to Schleswig-Holstein where the Dane border 'Denmark' was coined by Karl the Great - 'great' that is at mudering defenseless pagans

    Otherwise, as CMACQ elaborates, the name Ultima Thule and Skandza come from travel tales of Puni-Greco-Roman
    Last edited by blitzkrieg80; 02-10-2008 at 19:17.
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  6. #6
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Skándzá

    Quote Originally Posted by Radier
    My latin is a bit rusty. I wonder what the word Scatinavum means...
    My reconstruction...

    based on the use of Scatinavia in line 96.

    Maybe Scatinaum or ...Scatinavm or Scatinavium (I think meaning, 'of the Scatini, Scani,' or 'Skāne' via blitz) would be a better rendering?
    Not sure how Scytharum found its way into line 95, but the error must have occured somewhat early on?

    There is one additional source of early info. on the subject. but I don't think it would be of any help to you?

    Ὁμήρου Ὀδύσσεια
    Homer's ODYSSEY

    BOOK 11
    τῆς δὲ πανημερίης τέταθ᾽ ἱστία ποντοπορούσης δύσετό τ᾽ ἠέλιος σκιόωντό τε πᾶσαι ἀγυιαί. ἡ δ᾽ ἐς πείραθ᾽ ἵκανε βαθυρρόου Ὠκεανοῖο. ἔνθα δὲ Κιμμερίων ἀνδρῶν δῆμός τε πόλις τε, ἠέρι καὶ νεφέλῃ κεκαλυμμένοι· οὐδέ ποτ᾽ αὐτοὺς ἠέλιος φαέθων καταδέρκεται ἀκτίνεσσιν, οὔθ᾽ ὁπότ᾽ ἂν στείχῃσι πρὸς οὐρανὸν ἀστερόεντα, οὔθ᾽ ὅτ᾽ ἂν ἂψ ἐπὶ γαῖαν ἀπ᾽ οὐρανόθεν προτράπηται, ἀλλ᾽ ἐπὶ νὺξ ὀλοὴ τέταται δειλοῖσι βροτοῖσι. νῆα μὲν ἔνθ᾽ ἐλθόντες ἐκέλσαμεν, ἐκ δὲ τὰ μῆλα εἱλόμεθ᾽· αὐτοὶ δ᾽ αὖτε παρὰ ῥόον Ὠκεανοῖο ᾔομεν, ὄφρ᾽ ἐς χῶρον ἀφικόμεθ᾽, ὃν φράσε Κίρκη.

    Rendering
    Each day the sail stretched out, to make us race the sea in stride, and out-run the shadow of the sun, as we sped across an endless way. In short measure, by this means, we came to the wave-filled ocean-stream, and to the Cimbri kith, kin, and town, all wrapped in a mist that never parts, to let the sun shine on. This budged not when starry heaven comes around, neither rising from the ground, nor when urged, sinks back down. Likewise by design, thrust in deathly darkness, cower mortal men, bound aboard a driven craft, that as goats are grasped in hand, yanked aside the ocean’s flow, and run aground ... all as Circe had fore-said.

    --------------------------------
    I tried to make it sound a bit like a poem. Its a story about the East Greeks sailing from the western Mediterranean to Denmark, as the 'Κιμμερίων' or Kimmeri are the later Κιμβρὀν, and the Latin Cimbri. Most likely the context was not the Late Bronze Age, as the poem implies, but rather the time of Homer in the 8th century BC. However, it may refer to Late Bronze Age contacts with Denmark with the later Cimbri added for some other ethnos. The point is that Homer knew of the Kimmeri/Cimbri in Denmark in the 8th century BC, but again its not Sweden.

    There also is a citation of a Punic lost text that dates, I think, to about the 4th century BC, but it contains even less info therein.

    I report, you decide.

    Also...

    there is a school that holds that Thule was Iceland, but later usurped as Sweden. I remember translating a Latin text, several years ago, about a Roman expedition that was sent, but forced to return early due to high seas. sorry for the spelling.
    Last edited by cmacq; 02-11-2008 at 06:16.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

    Herein events and rations daily birth the labors of freedom.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Skándzá

    Quote Originally Posted by cmacq
    there is a school that holds that Thule was Iceland, but later usurped as Sweden. I remember translating a Latin text, several years ago, about a Roman expedition that was sent, but forced to return early due to high seas. sorry for the spelling.
    And I've read somewhere it'd be Norway...

    You, or any one else have any idea/opinion on the matter? I'm such a newbie, mnergh.
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