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Thread: Seleucid Army

  1. #1
    Member Member Anakuj's Avatar
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    Default Seleucid Army

    Greetings Europa Barbarorum Team!

    I found this E-Book sometimes ago, but I don't know how accurate is it. I don't belive really in the author's seleucid legions after I got to know your army composition and your opinion about the Easter "Imitation Legions". It would be great if you can watch it, and share your opinion.

    Thank You!

    And there is a book, what I'm talking about: [link removed. Copyrighted material - Foot]
    Last edited by Foot; 02-16-2008 at 23:26.



    Ongoing campaigns:
    XGM: Seleucid Empire.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Seleucid Army

    Some time ago I posted about a pic I saw of seleucid Chariot with 4 horses.
    I asked if it's pic is historicly accurate and if it does can it be on EB.
    I was ignored, so I thought "maybe that pic wasn't historicly accurate", but YET AGAIN I see this pic in that e-book...
    I mean, Fourth Age has Chariots with 4 horses, it can't be THAT hard to make...
    So is it really historicly inaccurate?






  3. #3
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seleucid Army

    The Assyrians were already using four-horse chariots. Beats me what the configuration was on the scythed thingys, but given that they didn't carry four plus crew they oughta have gotten away with less traction if necessary.

    But if you're referring to RTW models, I'm under the impression trying to work in a four-horse team ranked low enough in Priority and high enough in Pain In The Ass to not be bothered with.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  4. #4

    Default Re: Seleucid Army

    But if you're referring to RTW models, I'm under the impression trying to work in a four-horse team ranked low enough in Priority and high enough in Pain In The Ass to not be bothered with.
    Well, that makes EB a bit less historicly accurate...
    Can't the EB team ask the Fourth Age team for their models?
    Last edited by Leviathan DarklyCute; 02-16-2008 at 16:56.






  5. #5

    Default Re: Seleucid Army

    The point/problem is: EB is as good as done with RTW, and especially so on the GFX department.
    - Tellos Athenaios
    CUF tool - XIDX - PACK tool - SD tool - EVT tool - EB Install Guide - How to track down loading CTD's - EB 1.1 Maps thread


    “ὁ δ᾽ ἠλίθιος ὣσπερ πρόβατον βῆ βῆ λέγων βαδίζει” – Kratinos in Dionysalexandros.

  6. #6
    Krusader's Nemesis Member abou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seleucid Army

    Anakuj, while it is appreciated that you are sharing information, this book is most certainly copyrighted and not free for distribution. As such, it would be appreciated if you edited your post and took this down.
    Last edited by abou; 02-16-2008 at 22:33.

  7. #7
    Member Member Anakuj's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seleucid Army

    Dear abou!

    I know, I will do that (at 10:00 Sunday morning), I just would like to know Your opinion about this book, and it's statements referring to the later Seleucid Army.
    You are the Experts of the subject, I just ask a "It is a worth read" or "It is inaccurate" kind of answer. Thats all.

    Thank You!



    Ongoing campaigns:
    XGM: Seleucid Empire.
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  8. #8
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seleucid Army

    I have removed the book myself. If you wish for a review of the book I'm sure a quick google search will bring up many, and there is no reason to link to copyrighted material if you wanted to bring it to our attention.

    @Leviathan: Indeed, EB does lack in the "historically accurate" department for this very reason. In fact, due to constraints on time, difficulty, hardcodes and the like, EB overall has little to do with being historically correct and we recommend, instead, a time-machine for the perfect "historically accurate" experience. They can be found at all good retailers in the "objects that don't exist" section.

    Foot
    EBII Mod Leader
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Seleucid Army

    Well, thank you Foot for answering so unsarcasticly
    Perhaps I should try to create the chariot by myself using models that already exist in other mods...






  10. #10
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seleucid Army

    I always deal in kind. I answer questions phrased with respect and decency with respect and decency, and ... well, you get the rest.

    As for creating your own, you are more than welcome. Adding another modder to the world is a great thing.

    Foot
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Seleucid Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathan DarklyCute
    Some time ago I posted about a pic I saw of seleucid Chariot with 4 horses.
    I asked if it's pic is historicly accurate and if it does can it be on EB.
    I was ignored, so I thought "maybe that pic wasn't historicly accurate", but YET AGAIN I see this pic in that e-book...
    I mean, Fourth Age has Chariots with 4 horses, it can't be THAT hard to make...
    So is it really historicly inaccurate?
    Have a look at Roma Surrectum, this is the new scythed chariots for 2.0
    In the words of Marcvs Avrelivs;
    Live each day as if it were your last

    Ο ΠΟΛΕΜΟΣ ΚΑΤΑ ΤΗΣ ΣΕΛΕΥΚΕΙΑΣ - A Makedonike AAR
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=97530

  12. #12
    Wannabe Member The General's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seleucid Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaivs
    Have a look at Roma Surrectum, this is the new scythed chariots for 2.0
    Wouldn't you need awfully huge and cumbersome scythes for them to have any effect on the "targets"... As, y'know, with four horsies that more likely the opponents would just get trampled by the horsies, thus effectively making the scythes of the scythed chariots a little useless, no...?
    I has two balloons!

  13. #13

    Default Re: Seleucid Army

    Yeah but the spinny things make my wheels look cool.

  14. #14
    Member Member Anakuj's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seleucid Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Foot
    I have removed the book myself. If you wish for a review of the book I'm sure a quick google search will bring up many, and there is no reason to link to copyrighted material if you wanted to bring it to our attention.

    Foot

    Hello Foot!

    I googled it, and I found this one:
    [link removed - copyrighted material. Guys, seriously, having an ebook does not stop the copyright from lasting for 75 years after the authors death. Unless you pay for it, it is illegal.]

    I am not sure is it legal or not, if it isn't, please delete it. I have this book in paper-form too, so I can write out some parts of the text (I think, it is absolutly legal), because this Asclepiodotan maniple/legion sounds very strange. So it would be good to hear your opinion.

    Thank You!
    Last edited by Foot; 02-18-2008 at 19:06.



    Ongoing campaigns:
    XGM: Seleucid Empire.
    Finished Campaigns:
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    Failed:
    Not yet fortunately!

  15. #15
    Urwendur Ūrībźl Senior Member Mouzafphaerre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seleucid Army

    .
    I doubt it's legal (hosted on rapid etc.) but thanks all the same. I managed to download it before Foot kicks again.
    .
    Ja mata Tosa Inu-sama, Hore Tore, Adrian II, Sigurd, Fragony

    Mouzafphaerre is known elsewhere as Urwendil/Urwendur/Kibilturg...
    .

  16. #16
    Wannabe Member The General's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seleucid Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Mouzafphaerre
    .
    I doubt it's legal (hosted on rapid etc.) but thanks all the same. I managed to download it before Foot kicks again.
    .
    Bad, bad Mouzafphaerre... Tsk tsk!
    I has two balloons!

  17. #17
    Urwendur Ūrībźl Senior Member Mouzafphaerre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seleucid Army

    .

    .
    Ja mata Tosa Inu-sama, Hore Tore, Adrian II, Sigurd, Fragony

    Mouzafphaerre is known elsewhere as Urwendil/Urwendur/Kibilturg...
    .

  18. #18
    Member Member TWFanatic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seleucid Army

    Wha???? Are google books illegal?
    It would be a violation of my code as a gentleman to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person.-Veeblefester
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  19. #19
    Urwendur Ūrībźl Senior Member Mouzafphaerre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seleucid Army

    .
    The link wasn't to Google Books mate.
    .
    Ja mata Tosa Inu-sama, Hore Tore, Adrian II, Sigurd, Fragony

    Mouzafphaerre is known elsewhere as Urwendil/Urwendur/Kibilturg...
    .

  20. #20
    Krusader's Nemesis Member abou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seleucid Army

    The thing with Sekunda is that he is either admired or viewed as a laughing-stock. Some academic criticisms of his work really hammer him, but as he is more accessible to the average reader he is more widely known - hence imitation legionnaires in RTW.

    Coming from the anti-imitation camp (after all, what would a hostage Antiochos IV have seen in a city where no military presence is allowed other than triumphs and ovations?) the one good thing I will say is that there are images of artifacts that are difficult to find elsewhere. An example of this being the armored elephant statuette.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Seleucid Army

    Quote Originally Posted by abou
    The thing with Sekunda is that he is either admired or viewed as a laughing-stock. Some academic criticisms of his work really hammer him, but as he is more accessible to the average reader he is more widely known - hence imitation legionnaires in RTW.
    I've never known academic critiques of his work to be all that harsh on him, but you have to keep in mind that compared to his other "academic" publications (e.g. conference papers, journal articles), this was intended for a wider audience. These two Montvert titles were sort of the few remnants of a much larger work that he managed to publish before Montvert publishing sunk in the late '90s, apparently along with any hopes of publishing the larger book. The other fragment of that larger work which he managed to publish was "Hellenistic Infantry Reform in the 160's BC," which is the cleaner, more streamlined and more academic synthesis of the two Montvert titles, only without the nice McBride plates and illustrations.

    And the imitation legionaries are by no means attributable to Sekunda, except maybe their appearance, but the rest comes straight from Polybius.

    Sekunda is by far the best and most productive academic author focusing on Hellenistic arms and armour, and he recently began a colloquium for Hellenistic warfare which has been a few years in running now. I don't agree with a lot of his ideas (for instance, his strict adherence to identification of uniforms and "regimental emblems"), but he brings lots of new information to the table whenever he publishes something and usually presents interesting and well-informed theories.

    Coming from the anti-imitation camp (after all, what would a hostage Antiochos IV have seen in a city where no military presence is allowed other than triumphs and ovations?) the one good thing I will say is that there are images of artifacts that are difficult to find elsewhere. An example of this being the armored elephant statuette.
    You do realize that high-profile political hostages were not literally held only in Rome, right? They quite often had a lot of freedom to move around with friendly Romans, and there is no doubt that Antiochus was warmly received in Rome- he even had a house built for him at public expense! He would have had plenty of opportunity to see Roman troops in the Italian countryside, and so the whole idea of imitation legionaries is not implausible at all.

  22. #22
    Member Member TWFanatic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seleucid Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Mouzafphaerre
    .
    The link wasn't to Google Books mate.
    .
    But here's what Foot had to say about ebooks:

    Unless you pay for it, it is illegal.
    Therefore, Google books are illegal.

    The all-knowing foot is never wrong!
    Last edited by TWFanatic; 02-20-2008 at 04:04.
    It would be a violation of my code as a gentleman to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person.-Veeblefester
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    ΔΟΣ ΜΟΙ ΠΑ ΣΤΩ ΚΑΙ ΤΑΝ ΓΑΝ ΚΙΝΑΣΩ--Give me a place to stand and I will move the earth.-Archimedes on his work with levers
    Click here for my Phalanx/Aquilifer mod

  23. #23

    Default Re: Seleucid Army

    If its on Google Books, then its availabe for free distribution. Thats why its on Google Books in the first place. Do you honestly think a company like Google would let copyrighted material on their sites? They would get sued before you could even open the ebook. Hence, Google books are not illegal in anyway shape or form. The proper references are there, and the copyright owners are clearly stated.
    In the words of Marcvs Avrelivs;
    Live each day as if it were your last

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  24. #24
    Member Member Anakuj's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seleucid Army

    Quote Originally Posted by abou
    The thing with Sekunda is that he is either admired or viewed as a laughing-stock. Some academic criticisms of his work really hammer him, but as he is more accessible to the average reader he is more widely known - hence imitation legionnaires in RTW.

    Coming from the anti-imitation camp (after all, what would a hostage Antiochos IV have seen in a city where no military presence is allowed other than triumphs and ovations?) the one good thing I will say is that there are images of artifacts that are difficult to find elsewhere. An example of this being the armored elephant statuette.
    Thank You, really thank You abou!

    You are the first one, who answered my question, but you are the 20th poster!

    There is only one questin left (for me): can we say that your Thureophoroi/Thorakitai units are the ""seleukid legions"" of Sekunda, influenced a little bit by romans in formations-tactics/organisation (not in their looks, of corse)?

    Thank you
    Last edited by Anakuj; 02-20-2008 at 16:39.



    Ongoing campaigns:
    XGM: Seleucid Empire.
    Finished Campaigns:
    Vanilla RTW: Brutii (short).
    Failed:
    Not yet fortunately!

  25. #25
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seleucid Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Anakuj
    There is only one questin left (for me): can we say that your Thureophoroi/Thorakitai units are the ""seleukid legions"" of Sekunda, influenced a little bit by romans in formations-tactics/organisation (not in their looks, of corse)?
    AFAIK, they were developed before meeting the romans in battle. Parallel development of infantry formations is not impossible.

    Foot
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