New Ptolemaic units ?

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Barry Soteiro 13:14 02-18-2008

We will see those new ptolemaic units in EB2 maybe ?

1) Felt cataphract : maybe an upgrade of kleruchal cavalry

?

2) Jewish heavy infantry kleruchs ?

3) Elite Nubian : Bow + Obsidian Mace

Watchman 14:53 02-18-2008

Obsidian, being for most intents and purposes glass, oughta kind of suck as a mace-head material. I do recall having seen references to Nubian basalt maces though...

Foot 14:54 02-18-2008

So in the wrong forum. Moved.

Foot

antisocialmunky 19:23 02-18-2008

Originally Posted by Watchman:
basalt maces

Owww.

Watchman 19:40 02-18-2008

Kinda low tech granted, but that doesn't really matter much with maces which are after all rather... uncomplicated weapons.

MeinPanzer 09:40 02-19-2008

Originally Posted by Gertrude:
We will see those new ptolemaic units in EB2 maybe ?

1) Felt cataphract : maybe an upgrade of kleruchal cavalry ?

I hope not. "Felt" cataphracts (if what they were armoured with even was felt; that comes down to the meaning of "stolas") were used once in exceptional circumstances, almost certainly to protect against poisoned arrows, and even then only the vanguard of the cavalry unit, 100 out of 300 men, were equipped with this kind of defense. Historically, these have about as much right to be a unit as flaming pigs.

Originally Posted by :
2) Jewish heavy infantry kleruchs ?

Based on what historical evidence? I don't think we know how Jewish klerouchoi were armed (though maybe Paul can correct me on this).

Originally Posted by :
3) Elite Nubian : Bow + Obsidian Mace

What makes you think that an "elite" Nubian archer unit existed, or that their weaponry was made of anything other than wood and bronze or iron?

paullus 19:58 02-19-2008

Jewish klerouchoi, where we can tell, were incorporated into other Hellenistic units. So you already have heavily armed Ioudaioi in your Ptolemaic armies, they're just in Hellenistic units.

edit: and what is this about felt-kataphraktoi in ptolemaic armies indicated by the word spole/spolas?

MeinPanzer 21:38 02-19-2008

Originally Posted by paullus:
edit: and what is this about felt-kataphraktoi in ptolemaic armies indicated by the word spole/spolas?

It's not spolas, it's "stolas piletas." This is the relevant passage from Agatharchides' "On the Erythraean Sea" (numbers refer to fragments):

Originally Posted by :
19. In military action the Aithiopians employ long bows but short
arrows. Instead of an iron arrowhead, one made of stone that is oval
in shape is securely attached with cords made of sinew to the tip of
the reed shaft. Their arrows are extremely sharp and smeared with
lethal poison.

20. For the war against the Aithiopians Ptolemy recruited 500
cavalrymen from Greece. To those who were to fight in the front
ranks and to be the vanguard – they were a hundred in number – he
assigned the following form of equipment. For he distributed to them
and their horses garments of felt (or perhaps quilted garments? stolas piletas), which those of that country call kasas, that conceal the whole body except for the
eyes.

My mistake on the numbers- the total number of cavalrymen was 500, not 300.

This refers to Ptolemy II's war against the Aithiopians to open the elephant hunting grounds between c.275 and 265 BC.

marodeur 01:45 02-20-2008

Wanna see cataphract-guys with stolas!

paullus 15:56 02-20-2008

that those of the country call kasas? interesting. sorry for misreading spolas. stolas piletas could be anything from a relatively simple felt blanket to reflect heat (and poison arrows), or perhaps a heavier, even quilted garment.

the latter sounds more likely, since its for the front and rear rankers, and so seems designed to stop missile attacks, without encumbering the horse as much as heavy mail would have done. it sounds like that sort of arming of cavalry may have continued past the original invasion, if Agatharchides could cite that they're called kasas. he may be implying, by reference to a succesful past, that horse should armored that way for a new invasion of the south.

if we end up with 9-10 open unit slots for EB2 (read: not likely) perhaps I can get these guys considered, but I kinda agree with MP that there's little to commend them any more than flaming pigs and such.

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