Excommunication/Crusades

[PrestigeX]

Maybe I don't know what i'm doing in the game,
but i find being excommunicated and or going on crusades is pointless.

1st of all, Crusading armies do get cheap recruitment and better land-travel, but even when I take Antioch or Jerusalem or any of the other settlements near by, it always results in a Civil Revolt. OR it takes so long for the army to get there that the army loses its hope and disbands..Also crusading sergeants/knights cant easily be re-trained so it doesn't matter about their experience (where as some of my other units i keep almost the whole game and make it up to Silver and Gold ranks)

2nd.. f---k excommunication, i'd rather take out my enemies before they get too strong, and take more provinces so i can get more money. Even when I do get excommunicated, it doesn't seem to make any difference compared to not being... I still get attacked by all my neighbours regardless of my standing with the pope. I played on Hard has HRE and consistantly was getting excommunicated but i know if i hadn't I would have let Milan/France get too strong.

I want to play as Egypt or turkey, are their Jihads better?

[irishron2004]

Excommunicate me, I dig out the cheat book and next stop Rome.

[Jedi Bruno]

All you got to do put a diplomat a Rome and donate 50 florins for 20 turns and every turn you give the your map information as a gift. Voilá! You can slaughter everyone and the pope will not even care...

Or if the Pope is really annoying you, attack Rome, butcher everyone there, kill that old boring man, wait for elections and give rome to the next pope, he will just love you..

[Askthepizzaguy]

It's a not atypical reaction to crusades. All that effort and distance to hold on to a province which isnt even the same religion, and with distance and religious penalties, it's pointless to try to hold it, right?

As for excommunication, when your empire is small and mostly castles, excommunications dont matter.

However.

Much like spies and diplomats and assassins and princesses and merchants, these things may not appear to have much value or effect on the game.

Here's the deal on crusades:

You can use them to build MASSIVE multiple stack armies. Send off everyone you can on a crusade and take entire empires by force! Send also a stream of priests to do mass conversions.

Double or triple the size of your empire in 10-15 turns.

So these things do have a point.

And excommunication greatly affects your cities, especially with distance from your capital. Excommunication really impacts far-flung empires. Mass revolts and so forth can demolish your economy and leave you with far less territory, as well as rebel cities with huge powerful garrisons to retake.

If you've conquered say.... 6 or more empires, the glory bonuses will offset much of that, but still... better public order from being part of the community rather than excommunicated means you can get higher public order and taxes in your massive empire. Perfect for fighting the Mongols.

Merchants, for example. Earn maybe 20-60 florins per turn near your empire. WHO CARES???

A rank 3-4 merchant an empire away sitting on silk or gold or sugar... that can bank you 400 florins per turn or more. Several merchants are worth more than a city or two. Why not add that kind of income to your empire, if you're planning to turtle?

Diplomacy can net you 7000-15000 florins per empire, if you play your cards right. And that kind of income can grant you the power to recruit 2 or 3 stacks of troops. A little bit of a difference maker.

Spies and Assassins can make a difference to economic-based turtles. Instead of fielding large armies, you can knock off city after city by demolishing public order buildings and killing good governors, while using spies to cause revolts.

You can knock off their last few family members with your veteran spies if you are careful. At the very least you can severely weaken your enemies and conquer them much more easily. And avoid excommunication at the same time.

Princesses can engage in diplomacy, raise their charms, and marry your enemy's top unwed general... thereby weakening thier family and strengthening yours. Princesses are just like diplomats but they can cement alliances with the AI, making it less likely to be betrayed by them.

They can steal generals of course, and with a few mercenaries, the general can lay waste to their former army escort and turn the balance of power in your favor.

By marrying a general on crusade, the crusading army loses their commander and the army DISBANDS.

There are many, many subtleties to the game which can be exploited if you learn how to use them.

Personally, I just raise as many troops and generals as possible and then I conquer EVERYTHING as fast as possible. But to each his own!

I'm the last person you'd think would advocate the proper usage of agents, crusades, and avoiding excommunication, but I know about alternative strategies.

For more info on avoiding troop loss to desertion, there are many other threads involving crusades. But here's a tip>

Move as fast in a "line of flight" direction towards the target as possible. Use ships if helpful, and then move on land and hire another boat and continue the journey. Do not dally unless you plan on taking a city and leaving a sizeable garrison on your way to the target.

See my Link in my sig for an example of what INSANE crusading can do.

[Grombeard]

If -as a european faction- you conquer a city in the holy lands, it's better to always exterminate the people there, to keep them quiet long enough for you to build up churches and pump out priests who convert the holy lands to catholicism. When the religious unrest is gone you should be able to hold that city with an average garrison without haveing to worry about revolts. Sure, there's the distance to capitel thing too, but in my experience it's mostly the religion that causes trouble.

[ReiseReise]

Don't forget about the chivalry bonus for crusades. Send 3 or for 4 young generals on a crusade and you will have some instant high-chivalry governers. Bring them back home and put them in your biggest cities and you will have massive population growth and happiness even with maximum taxes. Or put one of them in a castle and it will be at Fortress size in no time.

I don't mind not being able to retrain the crusade mercenaries. I hire as many of them as possible and then use a couple of the spears to defend the target if it is likely to be attacked (2 crusader sergeants and 4 militias can defeat almost any attacker, add in a dismounted knight and a couple archers and it will be an absolute slaughter.) The rest of the spears and knights are used to annihilate the militia armies of the surrounding area, most of them will die but who cares, it is the price you pay for territory. Fanatics are sent on suicide mission to smash into enemy lines before my good troops engage, or through the gates in sieges. Pilgrims are used to push rams. In 10 turns you will be able to go on another crusade anyway, pick one that is near the target of the first crusade, you are already in the area and can replenish your mercs to do it all over again.

The only benefit of jihads is that if you choose to do one it is a done deal, there is no pope to deny your request.

I highly recommend you check out pizzaguy's threads to see what crusading can do. Long campaign in 8 turns. EIGHT turns. Every region of the map conquered in 28 turns. SirRethCir did it first in 9 turns and they are both trying to do it faster. (Edit: I was mistaken, I thought ATPG had already done it in 8) Before people started exploiting crusades to the maximum like this I think the record was about 16 turns, so the crusades do make a huge difference.

[Askthepizzaguy]

If -as a european faction- you conquer a city in the holy lands, it's better to always exterminate the people there, to keep them quiet long enough for you to build up churches and pump out priests who convert the holy lands to catholicism. When the religious unrest is gone you should be able to hold that city with an average garrison without haveing to worry about revolts. Sure, there's the distance to capitel thing too, but in my experience it's mostly the religion that causes trouble.

Better? Better get a bucket, I'm going to throw up!

Actually, It's NOT NECCESSARY to exterminate the holy lands!!!

Do as I say, not as I do. I exterminate so I can hold the lands for a few short turns until the entire map is mine. However, for most of you who want to ROLEPLAY this game and TURTLE for fun, DONT EXTERMINATE!

You can simply take 6 or 8 empires for your own, and the Glory bonuses will assist you in holding the Holy Lands. Imagine keeping Cairo, Alexandria, Jerusalem, and Antioch at maximum population!

Besides, isn't sacking more profitable? And if you're going to be chivalrous, why exterminate or sack when you can occupy and convert?

While you're taking lands that are already your religion, send a spy or two and a mess of priests into the lands you wish to convert. Look for heretics to smash, and convert the populace one province at a time with 5 or more priests. Then once you DO conquer them, they are already loyal.

This is especially important as an Orthodox or Muslim faction.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Don't forget about the chivalry bonus for crusades. Send 3 or for 4 young generals on a crusade and you will have some instant high-chivalry governers. Bring them back home and put them in your biggest cities and you will have massive population growth and happiness even with maximum taxes. Or put one of them in a castle and it will be at Fortress size in no time.

I don't mind not being able to retrain the crusade mercenaries. I hire as many of them as possible and then use a couple of the spears to defend the target if it is likely to be attacked (2 crusader sergeants and 4 militias can defeat almost any attacker, add in a dismounted knight and a couple archers and it will be an absolute slaughter.) The rest of the spears and knights are used to annihilate the militia armies of the surrounding area, most of them will die but who cares, it is the price you pay for territory. Fanatics are sent on suicide mission to smash into enemy lines before my good troops engage, or through the gates in sieges. Pilgrims are used to push rams. In 10 turns you will be able to go on another crusade anyway, pick one that is near the target of the first crusade, you are already in the area and can replenish your mercs to do it all over again.

The only benefit of jihads is that if you choose to do one it is a done deal, there is no pope to deny your request.

I highly recommend you check out pizzaguy's threads to see what crusading can do. Long campaign in 8 turns. EIGHT turns. Every region of the map conquered in 28 turns. Rethicir (sp?) did it first in 9 turns and they are both trying to do it in 7. Before people started exploiting crusades to the maximum like this I think the record was about 16 turns, so the crusades do make a huge difference.

I caution you, the 8 turns is a tenative goal, not an accomplishment.

I've managed 10 turns, working on 9, when SirRethCir informed me of his method for taking Catholic cities while on crusade. A blatant, cheap exploit of a game error. (ingenious, if dastardly). Now 8 turns is possible. Check back for updates.

[glyphz]

Crusades/Jihads are definitely an M2TW mechanic that should be taken advantage of. Early on you dont get spearmen of 7A/14D for around 200 florins. Pilgrims and Rel. Fanatics are great garrisons if not arrow fodder.
Movement bonuses, esp. on ship (click boat on campaign map, click fleet tab, and highlight all ship icons, NOW you have unlimited (i think) movement. Crusading army in Iberia reached thecoastal shores of the Holy Lands in 1 turn). Plus, if your relation w/ the Pope is great you can target a city of your liking (Granade, Tunis, or Vilnius, it's just too bad you cant target Novgorod or Constantinople, hope they fix that).

I tend to avoid excommunication if possible, even if it can be manageable, too bad the HRE (1 of my fav. factions) has to take Rome. i've yet to try buying it from them, after giving them at least 3 more provinces and hope they change capital.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Crusades/Jihads are definitely an M2TW mechanic that should be taken advantage of. Early on you dont get spearmen of 7A/14D for around 200 florins. Pilgrims and Rel. Fanatics are great garrisons if not arrow fodder.
Movement bonuses, esp. on ship (click boat on campaign map, click fleet tab, and highlight all ship icons, NOW you have unlimited (i think) movement. Crusading army in Iberia reached thecoastal shores of the Holy Lands in 1 turn). Plus, if your relation w/ the Pope is great you can target a city of your liking (Granade, Tunis, or Vilnius, it's just too bad you cant target Novgorod or Constantinople, hope they fix that).

I tend to avoid excommunication if possible, even if it can be manageable, too bad the HRE (1 of my fav. factions) has to take Rome. i've yet to try buying it from them, after giving them at least 3 more provinces and hope they change capital.

As the HRE I took Rome and built plenty of priests. I killed the Pope and his successor and his successor and his successor and his successor and his successor and so on until my 2 or 3 cardinals elected a Pope loyal to my cause. Then I got un-excomminicated by him. I still held Rome, too.

Got excomminicated 3 times, took Rome to get my first excommunication, and never gave it back. Still did two crusades and took all provinces by turn 28.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Like glyphz said, you get better units than are otherwise available in the early game for dirt cheap. Your entire army gets FREE upkeep, a huge boost to your economy in the early game. The typical Crusading targets are excellent cities to own, such as Antioch and Jerusalem. You get high chiv Generals that if placed in a Castle settlement will soon make your factions top-end units available. And to top it all off you get great relations with the Pope, so you can attack your neighbours on your home front.

Seriosly, do not underestimate the power of Crusading.

Jihads are pretty much the same idea, except they are easier to call since you don't need Papal permission.

[glyphz]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As the HRE I took Rome and built plenty of priests. I killed the Pope and his successor and his successor and his successor and his successor and his successor and so on until my 2 or 3 cardinals elected a Pope loyal to my cause. Then I got un-excomminicated by him. I still held Rome, too.

Got excomminicated 3 times, took Rome to get my first excommunication, and never gave it back. Still did two crusades and took all provinces by turn 28.

I like to play as a good Christian, but i should realize not to go too far as to let the guy w/ the big white hat control much of the campaign. I guess it is better to take Rome for myself, rather than thru diplomacy and ruin the spread of my faction colors on the campaignmap with bleach white spots.
Then comes my 2nd problem:reputation. One of my top priorities now is to not betray alliances. I'll have to find another way of getting top relations with the pope (for crusades and leeway in attacking Christian neighbors) w/o forging an alliance, until i get Rome for myself . If all else fails... EXCommunication it is! Bring it on.
...
(*gulps* whispers a silent prayer in secret)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Like glyphz said, you get better units than are otherwise available in the early game for dirt cheap. Your entire army gets FREE upkeep, a huge boost to your economy in the early game. The typical Crusading targets are excellent cities to own, such as Antioch and Jerusalem. You get high chiv Generals that if placed in a Castle settlement will soon make your factions top-end units available. And to top it all off you get great relations with the Pope, so you can attack your neighbours on your home front.

Seriosly, do not underestimate the power of Crusading.


Jihads are pretty much the same idea, except they are easier to call since you don't need Papal permission.

Indeed!
Also, as some have suggested in other threads, plan when you'll be taking the crusade target. Just a turn before, turn all other generals, w/ troops nearby, into crusading stacks , with the exception of dread generals that you would like to stay "dreaded." (if in a settlement, take him out w/ garrison, join crusade, then go back in the settlement).

Final crusade turn, no desertions should have taken place yet. With many armies joining the crusade prior, you get a ton of free florins due to free upkeep.
Conquer your crusade target w/ your main army (take advantage of crusade movement for roaming generals before doing so). Troops outside your main crusader armies get experience bonus, and your generals gain chivalry, the more generals in your main crusade army the better.
New territories, + public order, free exp, free chivalry points and/or command & piety, added boost to your treasury. What is not like??

[Grombeard]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Better? Better get a bucket, I'm going to throw up!

Actually, It's NOT NECCESSARY to exterminate the holy lands!!!

Do as I say, not as I do. I exterminate so I can hold the lands for a few short turns until the entire map is mine. However, for most of you who want to ROLEPLAY this game and TURTLE for fun, DONT EXTERMINATE!

You can simply take 6 or 8 empires for your own, and the Glory bonuses will assist you in holding the Holy Lands. Imagine keeping Cairo, Alexandria, Jerusalem, and Antioch at maximum population!

Besides, isn't sacking more profitable? And if you're going to be chivalrous, why exterminate or sack when you can occupy and convert?

While you're taking lands that are already your religion, send a spy or two and a mess of priests into the lands you wish to convert. Look for heretics to smash, and convert the populace one province at a time with 5 or more priests. Then once you DO conquer them, they are already loyal.

This is especially important as an Orthodox or Muslim faction.

*hands a bucket to pizzaguy*

If you have priests around and a lot of time, sure, that's the way to go. But if you come into the holy lands first time with a crusade (that's what the complaint was about) and you don't have priests around, extermination is a fast and safe way to get high public order and have your soldiers free for fighting or new conquests.

Maybe my first post really sounded too much like you HAVE to do it every time but that's not what i was trying to say.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

*hands a bucket to pizzaguy*

In his best French accent:

Gaston, another bucket for monsieur. And fetch ze cleaning woman. And perhaps a hose.

[ReiseReise]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

In his best French accent:

Gaston, another bucket for monsieur. And fetch ze cleaning woman. And perhaps a hose.

Pardon, but ze cleaning lady is busy, perhaps ze hose will do ze cleaning pour vous instead?

[Askthepizzaguy]

For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, here's an excerpt from Monty Python's The Meaning of Life.

Bon Appetit!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

MAÎTRE D:
Ah, good afternoon, sir, and how are we today?
MR. CREOSOTE:
Better.
MAÎTRE D:
Better?
MR. CREOSOTE:
Better get a bucket. I'm going to throw up.
MAÎTRE D:
Uh, Gaston! A bucket for monsieur. There you are, monsieur.

[snap]
[goosh]
Merci, Gaston.
MR. CREOSOTE:
I haven't finished.
MAÎTRE D:
Oh! Pardon. Gaston! A thousand pardons, monsieur.
MR. CREOSOTE:
Uhh.
[goosh]
MAÎTRE D:
Now, zis afternoon, we have monsieur's favourite: ze jugged hare. Ze hare is very high, and ze sauce is very rich with truffles, anchovies, Grand Marnier, bacon, and cream. Thank you, Gaston.
MR. CREOSOTE:
There's still more.
MAÎTRE D:
Oh! Allow me. A new bucket for monsieur,...
[goosh]
...and ze cleaning woman,... and maintenant. Would monsieur care for an apéritif, or would he prefer to order straight away?
[goosh]

MR. CREOSOTE:
Oh.
MAÎTRE D:
Uh, today we have, uh, for appetizers: Excuse me. Mhmm. Uh, moules marinières, pâté de foie gras, beluga caviar, eggs Benedictine, tart de poireaux-- that's leek tart,-- frogs' legs amandine, or oeufs de caille Richard Shepherd-- c'est à dire, little quails' eggs on a bed of puréed mushroom. It's very delicate. Very subtle.
MR. CREOSOTE:
I'll have the lot.

MAÎTRE D:
A wise choice, monsieur. And now, how would you like it served? All, uh, mixed up togezer in a bucket?
MR. CREOSOTE:
Yeah,... with the eggs on top.
MAÎTRE D:
But of course, avec les oeufs frites.
MR. CREOSOTE:
Yeah, and don't skimp on the pâté.
MAÎTRE D:
Oh, monsieur, I assure you, just because it is mixed up wis all ze other things, we would not dream of giving you less than ze full amount. In fact, I will personally make sure you have a double helping. Maintenant quelque chose à boire. Something to drink, monsieur?
MR. CREOSOTE:
Yeah, I'll have six bottles of Château Latour Forty-five...
MAÎTRE D:
Forty-five.
MR. CREOSOTE:
...and a double Jeroboam of champagne.
MAÎTRE D:
Bon, and the usual brown ales?
MR. CREOSOTE:
Yeah. No, wait a minute. I think I can only manage six crates today.
MAÎTRE D:
[tut tut tut tut] I hope monsieur was not overdoing it last night.

MR. CREOSOTE:
Shut up!
MAÎTRE D:
D'accord. Ah! Ze new bucket and ze cleaning woman.
[goosh]

[goosh]
[goosh]
[goosh]
Monsieur, is there something wrong with the food?
GUEST #4:
No, the food was excellent.
MAÎTRE D:
Perhaps you're not... happy with the service?
GUEST #4:
No, no. No complaints.
GUEST #4'S WIFE:
It's just that we have to go. I'm having rather a heavy period.
GUEST #3:
Hmm.
GUEST #3'S WIFE:
Mm mm.
GUEST #4:
And... we... have... a... train to catch.
MAÎTRE D:
Ah.
GUEST #4'S WIFE:
Oh. Yes. Yes, of course. We have a train to catch, and I don't want to start bleeding all over the seats. Ha, hm hm hm.
MAÎTRE D:
Madam?
GUEST #4:
Perhaps we should be going.
GUEST #4'S WIFE:
Oh.
MAÎTRE D:
Oh! Very well, monsieur. Thank you so much. So nice to see you, and I hope very much we will see you again very soon. Au revoir, monsieur.
[clunk]
Oh, dear. I have trodden in monsieur's bucket.
GUESTS:
[mumbling]
[slurp]
MAÎTRE D:
Another bucket for monsieur,...
[goosh]
...and perhaps a hose. M-hm.
MAX:
[retch]
MAX'S WIFE:
Oh, Max. Really!
GUEST #2:
[hiccup]

MR. CREOSOTE:
[groaning]
MAÎTRE D:
And finally, monsieur, a wafer-thin mint.
MR. CREOSOTE:
Nah.
MAÎTRE D:
Oh, sir, it's only a tiny, little, thin one.
MR. CREOSOTE:
No. **** off, I'm full.
MAÎTRE D:
Oh, sir. Hmm?
MR. CREOSOTE:
[groan]
MAÎTRE D:
It's only wafer thin.

MR. CREOSOTE:
Look. I couldn't eat another thing. I'm absolutely stuffed. Bugger off.
MAÎTRE D:
Oh, sir, just-- just one.
MR. CREOSOTE:
[groaning] All right. Just one.
MAÎTRE D:
Just the one, monsieur. Voilà.
MR. CREOSOTE:
[groaning]
MAÎTRE D:
Bon appétit.

KABOOM!

Thank you, sir, and now, here's ze check.

I would think that the Holy Grail quotes would be more appropriate given the movie's medieval setting, but as for me... if you want to know what I think... I'll show you something... come with me...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Maitre D: [out of shot] I was saying that - hallo... hallo...

Gaston: Come on... this way.

Voice of Maitre D: I can explain everything.

Gaston: Come on - don't be shy. Mind the stairs... All right. I
think this will help explain.

[He walks through the town.]

Gaston: Come along... Come along... Over here... Come on... Come
on... This way... Come on... Stay by me, uh? Nearly there now.

[Eventually Gaston comes over a hill and nods down to a
little thatched cottage nestling idyllically in a valley.
Smoke rises up from the chimney.]

You see that? That's where I was born. You know, one day, when
I was a little boy, my mother she took me on her knee and she
said: 'Gaston, my son. The world is a beautiful place. You
must go into it, and love everyone, not hate people. You must
try and make everyone happy, and bring peace and contentment
everywhere you go.' And so... I became a waiter...

[There is a rather long pause, while he looks a bit
self-deprecating and nods shyly at the live.]

Well... it's... it's not much of a philosophy, I know...
but... well... **** you... I can live my own life in my own
way if I want to. **** off! Don't come following me!

Do you know where that fish has gone? It was a lovely little fish... and it went where ever I did go.

A fish, a fish, a fish, a fishy.... oooooh.

All right. Shall we go now on a crusade? A sacred quest handed down by God, or a rather unconvincing cutout of him, in front of Camelot, (it's only a model, shh....) to find the Holy Grail?



Directed by

40 SPECIALLY TRAINED

ECUADORIAN MOUNTAIN LLAMAS

6 VENEZUELAN RED LLAMAS

142 MEXICAN WHOOPING LLAMAS

14 NORTH CHILEAN GUANACOS

(CLOSELY RELATED TO THE LLAMA)

REG LLAMA OF BRIXTON

76000 BATTERY LLAMAS

FROM "LLAMA-FRESH" FARMS LTD. NEAR PARAGUAY

and

TERRY GILLIAM AND TERRY JONES

A large foot descends upon the screen and crushes everything, resulting in a farting noise.