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Thread: Proportionality.

  1. #1
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Proportionality.

    Talking about a dutch case that is quite the talk here, and I am kinda interested in dutch responses only because they couldn't have missed it, but feel free to hop in.

    Just in case, it's about a woman, who was robbed in Amsterdam, the usual suspects grabbed her bag, in response she put the car in reverse and accidently crushed [her assailant] and his 40 braincells between a pole and her car. National sympathy for this women is going through the roof, and the general opinion about this dead robber is have a nice death that's the risk of the trade b-b-b-bye, robbed too many old and sick screw you I hope it hurted very badly and preferably for a very long time. After 3 years of deaththreats and having to live in shelter for obvious reasons she was finally dragged into court despite being on the edge of a nervous breakdown, friendly reporter told me most that came out of it was 'I don't want to be here I don't want to be here' she's a mess, and that with 200 supporters hissing from above who see the fundamental right to rob as the sixth pillar.

    What do you brainacs make out of this one, because I think she is being sacrificed for the greater good, which means no riots in Cohen's den, would be terrible for his carreer after all.
    Last edited by KukriKhan; 02-21-2008 at 18:27.

  2. #2
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proportionality.

    Link please (even if in Dutch). Otherwise we just have your account.
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  3. #3
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proportionality.

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan
    Link please (even if in Dutch). Otherwise we just have your account.
    No english links I know of sorry. I pretty much covered it all, and I can't give the name of my contact there. You will have to do with what I give you for now.

    Dutch link, but bablefish won't do here

    http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven....html#comments

    I would love to say that this is a great injustice, but I named the topic proportionanlity for a reason, robbing someone is what the absolute filth of humanity does but it's no crime that deserves death-penalty. I don't blame this lady, lived in Amsterdam for two years and white people have no rights there. She is a black from suriname, and she lost her rights as well now, that is where we are now, only muslims have rights the rest of us have rules.

  4. #4
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proportionality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony
    Talking about a dutch case that is quite the talk here, and I am kinda interested in dutch responses only because they couldn't have missed it, but feel free to hop in.

    Just in case, it's about a woman, who was robbed in Amsterdam, the usual suspects grabbed her bag, in response she put the car in reverse and accidently crushed [her assailant] and his 40 braincells between a pole and her car. National sympathy for this women is going through the roof, and the general opinion about this dead robber is have a nice death that's the risk of the trade b-b-b-bye, robbed too many old and sick screw you I hope it hurted very badly and preferably for a very long time. After 3 years of deaththreats and having to live in shelter for obvious reasons she was finally dragged into court despite being on the edge of a nervous breakdown, friendly reporter told me most that came out of it was 'I don't want to be here I don't want to be here' she's a mess, and that with 200 supporters hissing from above who see the fundamental right to rob as the sixth pillar.

    What do you brainacs make out of this one, because I think she is being sacrificed for the greater good, which means no riots in Cohen's den, would be terrible for his carreer after all.
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  5. #5
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proportionality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony
    Talking about a dutch case that is quite the talk here, and I am kinda interested in dutch responses only because they couldn't have missed it, but feel free to hop in.

    Just in case, it's about a woman, who was robbed in Amsterdam, the usual suspects grabbed her bag, in response she put the car in reverse and accidently crushed [her assailant] and his 40 braincells between a pole and her car. National sympathy for this women is going through the roof, and the general opinion about this dead robber is have a nice death that's the risk of the trade b-b-b-bye, robbed too many old and sick screw you I hope it hurted very badly and preferably for a very long time. After 3 years of deaththreats and having to live in shelter for obvious reasons she was finally dragged into court despite being on the edge of a nervous breakdown, friendly reporter told me most that came out of it was 'I don't want to be here I don't want to be here' she's a mess, and that with 200 supporters hissing from above who see the fundamental right to rob as the sixth pillar.

    What do you brainacs make out of this one, because I think she is being sacrificed for the greater good, which means no riots in Cohen's den, would be terrible for his carreer after all.
    Interesting legal case. From what I know of laws, there should be a trial for this woman, but of course (assuming your description is correct, which is hard to validate without a link) it would be a scandal if it ended with anything else but her going free and the judge deeming it to be self-defense.

    However, by the same laws, those who came with the death threats to her should also go to trial. And if they get anything but a lengthy punishment for illegal threats, it's a scandal by the laws of most European countries.

    --

    Who are the "usual suspects", by the way?
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    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proportionality.

    It seems Babelfish did work:

    Quote Originally Posted by babelfish
    The public prosecutor has required no less than THIRTY months cell against Germaine C. THIRTY months because she squeezed to death veelplegend, tasjesrovend, assaulting kloodtzakje in 2005, accidentally in obscurity. Gevalletje ' clearred state netjes '. But according to justice violence was ' disproportioneel '. Incomprehensiblely and to explain. Ms is three years from dato a mental wreck as a result of the action of Ali ell Bejjati and the threats of its 40 still in life is rovers. Incomprehensiblely also because Germaine the same public prosecutor at least six months work saved and the complete judicial system, reclassification and social service barrels to man hours by pressing the stalk male with its nose has saved on the facts. Pay attention, however, it goes for a requirement, the judge pronounces sentence over two weeks. There is therefore still hope * kuch *...
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  7. #7
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proportionality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodion Romanovich
    by the way?
    Oh common.

  8. #8
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proportionality.

    It seems Babelfish did work:
    Interesting, it's half-readable even though there's some Dutch woorden in there ...

    Well, why didn't her layer claim she was temporarily lost mental control at the time? It's odd how an unprovoked killer can claim that, but someone in a very scary robbery victim situation can't...

    Seems the law is pretty messed up in Dutch-land... again
    Last edited by KukriKhan; 02-22-2008 at 00:03.
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  9. #9
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proportionality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony
    Oh common.
    Out of interest, how would you define the group "usual suspects"?
    Under construction...

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  10. #10
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proportionality.

    Google is your friend. Story in English.
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  11. #11
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proportionality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodion Romanovich
    Out of interest, how would you define the group "usual suspects"?
    Those that simply don't belong here? They rob grannies and hiss at dutch girls screw them, we have chinese, hindus, everything, we don't need the islam to channel our dark side. Fed up, tired, extremily cynical and very very angry.

  12. #12
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proportionality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony
    Those that simply don't belong here? They rob grannies and hiss at dutch girls screw them, we have chinese, hindus, everything, we don't need the islam to channel our dark side. Fed up, tired, extremily cynical and very very angry.
    Ok, I was hoping you would say "those that are receiving special positive treatment for no reason whatsoever", but this answer of yours is quite good too. I was just a little annoyed about the word "pillar" in your post above which makes a subtle association to "muslim", which isn't the causality in this case. The causality is obviously that they are allowed to immigrate in too large numbers even when they don't need it, and receive special positive treatment and stand above the law in a sense, due to PC people thinking it's racism to NOT let all immigrants stand above the law.

    Also out of curiosity, are there no political parties in the Netherlands who are against massive unchecked immigration and special positive treatment for immigrants?

    Or, is it only Denmark and Austria who dare take a stance against the segregation problems and resolve them in a morally correct and peaceful way (by having equality before the law for all, and not increasing segregation by faster immigration than the country can handle) rather than either causing chaos (French riots) or letting go and waiting for more segregation problems to build up (Dutch situation, it seems?)?
    Edit: tbh I think Denmark will be one of the countries with least segregation problems if they have the guts to continue to stand up against the problem, whereas those that let go too much, and have too much PC policies, will be the countries most likely to see massive racial violence in a few decades from now.
    Last edited by Rodion Romanovich; 02-21-2008 at 20:25.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proportionality.

    Looking at the version Kukri posted, I think the prosecution is entirely justified.
    This is hardly self-defense...

  14. #14

    Default Re: Proportionality.

    What is the penalty for causing death through reckless driving in Holland .
    She is clearly guilty of that charge .
    In fact she would be guilty of causing death through dangerous driving too .
    Now there will be some mitigating factors which should be shown in her sentencing , but there can be no doubt that she is guilty .

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proportionality.

    Also out of curiosity, are there no political parties in the Netherlands who are against massive unchecked immigration and special positive treatment for immigrants?

    Oh, the netherlands is going to be an interesting place the next months.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    In fact she would be guilty of causing death through dangerous driving too .
    Yes, hence proportionality

    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
    Looking at the version Kukri posted, I think the prosecution is entirely justified.
    This is hardly self-defense...
    We don't have that here.
    Last edited by Fragony; 02-21-2008 at 20:46.

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proportionality.

    Fortunately, we don't have castle laws here anymore...

    If she intended to kill him because he stole, it's clearly murder.

    If it happened accidentally, then it's manslaughter or release.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  17. #17
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proportionality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    What is the penalty for causing death through reckless driving in Holland .
    She is clearly guilty of that charge .
    In fact she would be guilty of causing death through dangerous driving too .
    Now there will be some mitigating factors which should be shown in her sentencing , but there can be no doubt that she is guilty .
    ....Unless she can prove to be criminally insane/temporary insanity/whatever-the-english-term-is-you-know-what-I-mean
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  18. #18
    Vermonter and Seperatist Member Uesugi Kenshin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proportionality.

    From that article that Kukri posted it definitely looks like the woman should have just called the cops, rather than chasing her scooter-riding robbers and killing one of them. I think it's entirely justifiable that she be charged.

    Self-defense is understandable, but this wasn't self-defense. The perps were fleeing the scene and weren't threatening her or anything. She should have just called the cops, canceled any credit cards or checks she may have had in her purse and gone on with her life...
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    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proportionality.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    ....Unless she can prove to be criminally insane/temporary insanity/whatever-the-english-term-is-you-know-what-I-mean
    temporary insanity over a stolen purse??

    it┤s not like she was in fear for her life or anything.
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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Cool Re: Proportionality.

    You guys are missing the point. A woman, reverse driving fast enough to run down a scooter. That must be a first.

    =][=

    On a more serious note, killing someone to retrieve a purse is disproportionate.

    I doubt she will get as much time as if she ran down someone who cut her off in traffic. But I don't think capital punishment should be in the realms of the individual.
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    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proportionality.

    Seems like a case of murder, at worst, or involuntary manslaughter, at best, to me. Throw the book at her and let a jury decide.
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    Member Member 5 Card Draw Champion, Mini Pool 2 Champion, Ice Hockey Champion, Mahjong Connect Champion Northnovas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proportionality.

    El Bejjati had been convicted before of purse theft and was awaiting trial on armed robbery charges when he died.
    I guess it doesn't matter what country you live but a classic case of the justice sytem failing to protect society. How did he make bail with a serious charge of armed robbery and having a criminal record for theft? Hopefully she will not be made an example in her sentencing if found guilty.

    Really a sad situation all around.

  23. #23
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proportionality.

    Wasn't her intention too kill him, was an accident, so no murder or manslaughter. She has been in hiding for 3 years and is about to have a nervous breakdown because of all the threats. Now she has to go to jail for 2,5 years. Had the little prick been in jail where he belonged he would still be alive, if he wasn't a thief he would still be alive. He is not the victim here. Good riddance.

  24. #24
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proportionality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony
    Wasn't her intention too kill him, was an accident, so no murder or manslaughter.
    From the article:
    The national broadcaster, NOS news, reported that the woman had told police she wanted only to "bump" the scooter.
    If she really had the intention to "bump" him, this was certainly not an "accident"
    According to this Wikipedia-article it could well qualify as "involuntary manslaughter".

    There should of course be mitigating circumstances, i.e. the fact that after the theft she was naturally quite upset.
    While this helps to explain her action, it should not excuse it.
    (that the thief perhaps should not have been walking free at that point of time in the first place cannot be an excuse either)

    Personally I think this should have gone to court much sooner - before her going into hiding for three years.

  25. #25
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proportionality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
    There should of course be mitigating circumstances, i.e. the fact that after the theft she was naturally quite upset.
    While this helps to explain her action, it should not excuse it.
    I think it does, the robber being dead is somewhat harsh but it suits me just fine , and it wasn't the first time she got robbed, north-african youths are a real plague in Amsterdam, especially for women and the elder. She should be released at once there is only one victim here.

  26. #26
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proportionality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony
    I think it does, the robber being dead is somewhat harsh but it suits me just fine , and it wasn't the first time she got robbed, north-african youths are a real plague in Amsterdam, especially for women and the elder. She should be released at once there is only one victim here.
    No. A man got killed. What her "intention" was when she ran her car into the scooter doesn't matter at all. What matters is the result. For example, if I punch you, and I just intend you to hurt a little, but I accidentally hit you in just that spot causing you to die from it, then I'm a murderer. Plain and simple. She hit the scooter, and the man died. So she's a murderer.

    Accept responsibility for what you do, etc etc
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  27. #27
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proportionality.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    For example, if I punch you, and I just intend you to hurt a little, but I accidentally hit you in just that spot causing you to die from it, then I'm a murderer.
    Actually you are not a murderer in this case as it was not your intention to kill.

  28. #28
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proportionality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
    Actually you are not a murderer in this case as it was not your intention to kill.
    That doesn't matter when the result ended in a kill.

    At least that's how it works in our law system. For example, if a pedestrian suddenly jumps into the street where I'm driving, and I hit and kill him, then I'll be charged(and convicted of) with manslaughter.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  29. #29
    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proportionality.

    In my country, manslaughter is not the same as murder.
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  30. #30
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proportionality.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    NFor example, if I punch you, and I just intend you to hurt a little, but I accidentally hit you in just that spot causing you to die from it, then I'm a murderer. Plain and simple.
    That doesn't make you a murderer, it makes me unlucky and kinda dead. If there is no intention it can not be murder/manslaughter, I don't believe dutch law has such a thing such as involuntary manslaughter.

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