Iraq: Round Two

[Pannonian]

Turkey has the right to defend itselve, good hunting. The otherwise so vocal peace-movement seems to agree, oh the silence...... I guess only western agression is bad.

You've missed out one aspect of western aggression which makes it bad for us in particular. It costs our taxmoney. If we can go barging around and impose our costs on those we go barging into, it wouldn't be as bad. Although destablisation in that area of the world isn't going to be good, whoever pays for it, since we all pay in the end in the form of higher fuel costs.

Future presidents and prime ministers should get their kicks in strategic backwaters, instead of these important places where only grown ups ought to play. I hear there are terrorists in Tahiti that deserve our undivided attention.

[LeftEyeNine]

Kurdistan gets no ****** territory from Turkey. Full stop. There are 13 millions of them living in Turkey, most of them living in the western part rather than where people claim the Kurds' homeland is.

I don't like them at all. They need to change their feudalist mindsets before asking for something. Even in their so-called independence struggle, PKK is coping with leadership problems. It's not been more than a week since one of the two leadership contenders' -Murat Karayılan- 5 men were poisoned to death by his rival. The event ended up with the killing of 4 men loyal to his rival who were working in the kitchen. When you have a "cause", you need to unite, not fight over who the leader is.

I never and ever believe Kurds deserve independence. There are always landlords among them, who only think about their very selfish benefits who seem to be serving Kurds' political causes. Even in a more liberal environment such as N. Iraq, they have two parties which still fail at agreeing at some terms. They are not united at all.

What's more, if you want freedom, you go for it. No one gives another freedom. We didn't get it that way and we'll not give it that way either. If you're up for a demand of something which belongs to another for the time being, you're up for a fight. And considering the 30.000 people including women and babies murdered by PKK (I can provide photos but they are graphic), it's more of a terrorist organization rather than people fighting for independence. And regarding the condition they are in, they have failed.

However, no one will forget those "lost American weapons" in N. Iraq. US will always be contacting PKK in some way, supporting or helping against them from time to time, always seeming to be "against terrorism". If PKK ends, XYZP will come out, just as PKK did when ASALA had died off (1983-1984). Territorial seperatist plots are being played in this area for nearly a century. Nothing new will happen as long as Turkey can be economically independent someday.

They have a political party in the Turkish parliament (DTP). But it seems this is their "fun". They can't stop acting like terrorists. Things didn't get better since they are in that parliament.

[Tribesman]

You don't think there's a slight difference between organizations such as PKK and al-Qaeda? The PKK fights for independence (just like the Americans did back in the 18th century, but we would never call Americans terrorists, right?

So you can take the vast majority of terrorist groups in the world and declare that they are not terrorists then Innocentius .
BTW since Al-qaida wasn't in Iraq (apart from the American protected Kurdish areas) when Iraq was invaded what has Al-qaida got to do with it ?

[Vladimir]

Nevermind. No poke the badger today.

[Geoffrey S]

Uh-huh. And it's coincidental that this happens just after that whole Kosovo business?

[Ice]

Uh-huh. And it's coincidental that this happens just after that whole Kosovo business?

For the win

[LeftEyeNine]

Uh-huh. And it's coincidental that this happens just after that whole Kosovo business?

The Turkish army had an ongoing aerial campaign for the last 1-2 months.

[Geoffrey S]

The Turkish army had an ongoing aerial campaign for the last 1-2 months.

Somewhat different from sending in the ground troops, much as there'd be quite a bit more upheaval if US troops entered Pakistan rather than the occasional bombing foray currently used. Turkish troops have been massing along the borders for some time now, certainly, but I think the declaration of independence in Kosovo and the US's cautious approval pushed the Turkish government into action.

For what it's worth, I can certainly understand the worries such a precedent sets - but I'm also worried what precedent a US allowance for Turkish troops to stage ground assaults in Iraqi territory will set for people elsewhere. Can't have it both ways forever. It just goes to show how contradictory policies can get even the mightiest of nations into something of a pickle.

[Innocentius]

So you can take the vast majority of terrorist groups in the world and declare that they are not terrorists then Innocentius .
BTW since Al-qaida wasn't in Iraq (apart from the American protected Kurdish areas) when Iraq was invaded what has Al-qaida got to do with it ?

Yes, pretty much. I just think it's interesting how eager the US is in condemning various militias as terrorists (where the word terrorist is synonym for evil anti-American child-eater) while the USA was founded by such terrorists.

al-Qaeda was just an example. You could replace it with any random terrorist organization if you'd prefer that.

[Tribesman]

Why would Iran take over places that could work against them, in the end whatever governs Iraq will be something that has western interests in mind. They would do better by just making a mess out of it, isn't like they have nothing going on there at home. And the Kurds don't need Iran on top of it, I call bull.

You really shouldn't call bull when you are clearly wrong Frag .
Think about it .
Much of Americas "reliable" information about what to do in Iraq was from a group working for the ******** .
Americas original prefered political leadership for Iraq turned out to have been working for the ******** all along .
The major parties that have done well in elections in Iraq are parties that are backed by the ********.
The major winner in those elections was acually formed by the ******** in **** .
One of the two major Kurdish seperatist parties , the one with more weapons and more troops , is backed by the ******** .
The relatively major player in the South who claims not to be backed by the ******** recieves arms and funding from the ******** and "spiritually" is obliged to follow the ******** Iraqi cleric .

Now go through that and see if those * can fit anything other than Iranian or Iran without turning the statements false .
If you cannot substitute another word then they are clearly true and you shouldn' have called bull .

A I said earlier Iran and Syria do desire a stable Iraq , its just that they desire it on their terms and as their friends

[Fragony]

Or it was a trap, I don't know

[Tribesman]

Or it was a trap, I don't know

It could be , lets see .
What did they get out of it ?

Taliban largely screwed and focused elsewhere...
Saddam gone...
America tied down...
America with a huge and growing debt...
Americas army strained...
Bush looking like the idiot that he is...
International consensus after 9/11 splintered...
Severe doubts over intelligence cliams on WMD development...
An increase in anti-western feeling throughout the region...
A new excuse to clamp down further on dissent at home...
A massive increase in the value of their commodities...
An opening for bigger legal and illegal trade...
Their friends in power in Iraq....
The oppertunity to kill their enemies in Iraq...
Wider regional alliances(including with states who quite frankly hate and distrust the mullahs in Iran)...
A nice training ground for the revolutionary guards and their apprentices....

The list could go on and on .
Perhaps it wasn't a trap, perhaps the Iranians just got really really unbelievably lucky .