All Vassal Challenge

[Askthepizzaguy]

Medieval 2: Total Vassalage!

The objective: Own all provinces on the map, but you CANNOT ELIMINATE FACTIONS!!! Force every opposing faction to be your vassal, and secure all other provinces. Bonus points for getting the Mongols, Timurids, and Aztecs.

Version: Pre-kingdoms, LTC or vanilla, your choice of version.
No other mods.
Difficulty: H/H to VH/VH only.

Think you have what it takes to own the entire world? This time, you don't get to simply seize every territory. You MUST allow ALL opposing factions to continue to exist! It's more realistic... even the British empire made most of it's territories protectorates, vassals, or provinces that were self-governed. The reason being that a hundred thousand British troops could not patrol and police all of Africa, America, Asia, and Australia. In other words, rule by proxy, rather than by force, was the watchword of real empires.

True, in this campaign you will probably exercise direct control over at least half of the map. However, in order to secure all those vassal states, you will most likely have to GIFT provinces back to them... leaving even fewer states under your direct control.

I often hear that M2TW isn't challenging enough. How's this for a challenge?
Who will be the first to make every state their vassal, and control all provinces?

To all participants in the challenge: Post your results here, as well as any comments. I look forward to your reactions and the results of your efforts. The added danger of this campaign is that certain factions might get eliminated by other nations... you have to stop this from happening! Every faction must exist in this challenge!



=================

Until the challenge is actually completed:
The Vassal Contest:
Who can obtain the most vassal states in terms of factions controlled?
(alternatively, in the event of a tie, number of vassal provinces)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Question: Is it even possible? Won't know until you try.
I will partake in this challenge. But give me some time, I currently have an 8 turn HRE challenge to win, followed by a Total Independence campaign, followed by a Rome Total War Blitzkrieg campaign, followed by this... and I have college and a full time job. So could be a bit. Any takers? Or am I the only lunatic willing to try?

[Ibn-Khaldun]

This is more for me than the blitz challenge so after I have reminded myself how to play medieval on VH/VH haven't truely played it for a long time )I'll give it a try

[seari]

I'm going to try this for sure.
I have a few questions.

1)Can I let a faction hold only 1 province, surrounded by my provinces and no sea access to ensure they won't attack someone?

2)May I use spies/assassins?

3)And i have heard that global reputation drops over time if you're playing on VH. Is this true and how do you encounter this aside from being at war with everyone and releasing prisoners/occupying cities?

I'll post screenshots but first I must find time to try this challenge.
Stupid school

I think it will work the best with Hungary.=> fast access to Middle east and jerusalem/antioch. You give baghdad to Vassal-turkey and you will get no jihads/crusades which will destroy your vassal-alliances.

[TinCow]

How long until askthepizzaguy starts up a challenge requiring you to use nothing but Peasants? M2TW: Serf's Up!

[Ramses II CP]

Yeah, on VH campaign difficulty your reputation is going to go through the floor in a hurry. Might be best to try it on H/VH. It'll still decline, but it'll be manageable.

I'm thinking you almost have to go catholic here and possibly one of the Italian factions, for that fast access to the Popester. Move fast, ink alliances in one direction and make war in the other, then return provinces to the enemy to boost relations sufficient to make them accept vassalage. One thing you will need is a good economy to pay for keeping your relations on an even keel.

When you're ready to go after the ones you allied with at the start find a pretext for war (Like excommunication) and go to town.

France would probably be a good one for this style again, as you could go get England and Scotland fairly quickly, then work through Iberia. Could be a problem keeping Milan/Venice/Hungary from getting eliminated though.

I'm pretty busy at the moment, but I'll given this a try eventually.

[predaturd]

i dont think you can get the pope to be a vassal nor the aztecs mongols or timurids :(
well i can try for everyone else then:)

[Jedi Bruno]

That's really going to be a hard challenge indeed... Perhaps using only peasants armies would be a little bit easier.
I'm now doing a Scotland campaign at VH/VH and even tough I have a nice good reputation, those English bastards just won't bow to me! Every time I turn my back there is a almost full stack of billmen knocking at Bruges!(God Bless my Highlander army).

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'm going to try this for sure.
I have a few questions.

1)Can I let a faction hold only 1 province, surrounded by my provinces and no sea access to ensure they won't attack someone?

YES

2)May I use spies/assassins?

YES

3)And i have heard that global reputation drops over time if you're playing on VH. Is this true and how do you encounter this aside from being at war with everyone and releasing prisoners/occupying cities?

Generally, gifting maps and promises to attack works, followed by tiny amounts of florins. Establish an "embassy" (diplomat) for every nation and work HARD or your diplomatic skill.

YOU CANNOT WIN THIS CHALLENGE WITHOUT SUPERIOR DIPLOMACY SKILLS.

I'll post screenshots but first I must find time to try this challenge.
Stupid school

I think it will work the best with Hungary.=> fast access to Middle east and jerusalem/antioch. You give baghdad to Vassal-turkey and you will get no jihads/crusades which will destroy your vassal-alliances.

Intriguing theory...

My replies in bold.

EDIT: Pizzaguy's 800th post

[Askthepizzaguy]

i dont think you can get the pope to be a vassal nor the aztecs mongols or timurids :(
well i can try for everyone else then:)

I have heard reports that the Pope will accept vassalage if you're a non-catholic...

And if you gift him rome for the trouble, perhaps...

That's really going to be a hard challenge indeed... Perhaps using only peasants armies would be a little bit easier.
I'm now doing a Scotland campaign at VH/VH and even tough I have a nice good reputation, those English bastards just won't bow to me! Every time I turn my back there is a almost full stack of billmen knocking at Bruges!(God Bless my Highlander army).

Frankly an all-peasant army wouldn't be much of a challenge, as a blitzer that's pretty much all I have to fight with anyway.

Obviously this would exclude general's bodyguard units, as there is no way to play without them without modding the game.

[Askthepizzaguy]

A tip for all:

You NEED to have allies and maintain a decent reputation. That means no cancelling alliances, no butchering your citizens, no ransoming or executing prisoners, and the more friends you have, the better.

You can begin taking over your neighbors one at a time once people backstab you. Then, when they are your vassal, it becomes easier to secure more vassals as you have a more or less "permanent" (conquered) allied faction.

[Monsieur Alphonse]

@ pizza guy

I was expecting that you would do something like this. I believe the record of vassals is 8 (at TWcenter). I wonder what faction you will play because playing a catholic faction will make it very hard to deal with the pope.

I think that this is very boring.

I am curious when you will start to blitz in Broken Crescent.

[ReiseReise]

Hmmmm, looks interesting, I've never played around much with vassals. It is possible for them to betray you, correct? That could make things quite difficult......

In response to peasant replies, I saw an AAR a while ago where someone won with Spanish peasants. I don't remember if it was long or short campaign, what site it was on, or how many months ago. Western peasants are much stronger than their eastern brethren so to make it a challenge you would have to use eastern or muslim faction and limit yourself to only one general per stack

[Dead Guy]

I've tried this, though not as hardcore but at the same time more hardcore...
I limited myself to my starting provinces and 1-3 more that I took in the opening turns, and then gave back all provinces of conquered enemies in exchange for vassalage. This eventually makes campaigns strange and somewhat interesting when you have to sail across the map with armies and then maintain them in hostile territory, with a limited economy.
I haven't played it very far though... think I had 4 vassals, and I didn't bother to keep every faction alive.

A word of caution:
Jihads and crusades can seriously hamper your progress should you have vassals of different religions!

Good luck!

[Ethelred Unread]

great idea Pizzaguy - be interesting to see screenies of this challenge.

The peasants campaign was called march of the penguins IIRC, and was before the shield fix, so don't know how feasible it would be now.

[Yoyoma1910]

A word of caution:
Jihads and crusades can seriously hamper your progress should you have vassals of different religions!

The key to that is to be the one who decides where the crusades target, and only target rebels or non vassals/allies. I suppose you would also have to let them linger on a bit to keep the total number of Crusades down.

In my current campaign as France I have Egypt as a long time vassal, and have managed to keep the crusades focused elsewhere. Primarily at rebel factions.

[Askthepizzaguy]

All Vassal Challenge: Attempt One.

Lands to Conquer, Very Hard/Very Hard

Update:

As Byzantium, year 1110ad, roughly turn 23.

I made 12 factions my allies, and took on Sicily and Venice. My relations with all my allies are at Good or better, and the Pope is my ally. My reputation is Trustworthy. Milan just attacked Venice with a full stack of doom. Sicily has been pushed back into Palermo, as the sole remaining province. Cannot capture, as this would eliminate the faction.

Venice has been pushed out of Iraklion, Durazzo, and many battles have been won in Ragusa and Zagreb.

On the conversion front: Iconium is a third Orthodox, Italy is becoming Orthodox. I have taken Naples and Florence, and turned Florence into a castle.

Due to extensive releasing of prisoners and occupation of cities, all of my generals have 3 chivalry or better, some have 5 or 6. Most of my generals have two silver chevrons or better.

Sicily finally allied with Venice, and decided to throw everything that they both have at Iraklion. They have lots of medium and heavy cavalry, spears, and generals. The rest of their respective empires are undefended. Over half of their total forces, for both of them, are seiging Iraklion. I have sufficient defenses to withstand the assault. When their assault fails, I will track down the remnants of their forces and capture them.

I recently ransomed the Venetian Doge for over 13,000 florins. My economy is thriving. I have trade rights with all the neighbors that I am not at war with, and a port-based economy. recently built mines and an Ikoner's studio.

Thus far I am having difficulty forcing even Sicily to accept a vassalage. However, I have a plan.

I will take Tunis and Tripoli, and I will gift Tripoli to the Sicilians. Then I will take Palermo, thus not eliminating Sicily. (Since Sicily has a general outside of Palermo, killing their King will only make that other general their king). Tripoli is so completely worthless that they will be unable to sustain an offensive against anyone, and isolated enough that they will most likely just build up defenses to repel oddball assaults.

In order to convince them to accept vassalage, I will probably have to gift them Palermo and Tunis, possibly Naples, thus restoring their empire and thensome, but at least I will have accomplished my Sicilian objective. My rating of Trustworthy, coupled with an eventual economic powerhouse enabling me to gift lots of florins, will probably result in obtaining the vassal state.

If anyone has any suggestions as to how I can get them to accept vassalage, just let me know. They are pretty much beaten.

Do they need to be the ones to use diplomacy on me, and then I counter their offer of peace with vassalage in order to make it more effective?

[Dead Guy]

The key to that is to be the one who decides where the crusades target, and only target rebels or non vassals/allies. I suppose you would also have to let them linger on a bit to keep the total number of Crusades down.

In my current campaign as France I have Egypt as a long time vassal, and have managed to keep the crusades focused elsewhere. Primarily at rebel factions.

Well, that's the key to half the problem, yes.
I had the Byzantines and the Moors as vassals, but when the Turks declares a jihad on Constantinople, there's not a whole lot to do about it when the Moors decide to join it. The same thing could happen even if you didn't own/were allied with the owner of constantinople, albeit jihads are pretty rare.

Cheers

[ReiseReise]

My thought was to pick Byzantium as well.

Does anyone know if there is a trick to getting the AI's priority displayed during negotiations? Are the chances of seeing it based on your diplomats skill? You would definitely want to see it as much as possible in this game because you can probably make them your vassals for 1/3 the price if you can see their "peace" priority. I don't have much experience with vassals but I do know you get a much better deal when bargaining for trade rights if you can see that they have a Trade priority.

However, the one time I can remember the details of gaining a vassal, they did have the Peace priority and I did indeed get a good deal. I was playing Poland, and the Byzantines sent a pathetic army to towards Iasi. After I met them on the field and drove them off, they also went to war with Hungary and must have been overwhelmed by their own underwhelming military skill because the soon wanted peace. I had no army anywhere near Greek lands and I had only attacked them once, and it was in my own territory. Out of nowhere this giant wooden horse shows up at the gates of Iasi. Ok actually it was just a diplomat, but he did show me a ghastly collection of the crowned skulls of the many Kings his master had conquered. After this happened, I turned off the movie because it was distracting me from playing the game. In reality, the Greek emperor had conquered no one and was dead by my own hand in the single battle our nations had fought. The diplomat was desperate for peace, but even so, made the insulting offer of a crinkled up old map (with coffee stains on it no less) and a few hundred Venetian paperweights in return for the salvation of his entire nation. Salvation from death that is, not the eternal kind - the bastard wouldn't budge when i tried to convince him to recognize the Holy See in Rome. I then realized I was playing a different game, but continued anyway. Insult begets insult so I demanded Corinth, Sofia, a few thousand tons of silver and the recently crowned Emperor's vassalage to me. Needless to say I almost died of laughter when the offer was accepted.

Or at least, thats the way I remember it.

[Ramses II CP]

If you want them to accept vassalage you have to get your relations with them up first, which can be difficult if you've been at war a long time. The best approach to getting a vassal is to have a lightning strike where you rapidly occupy several of their holdings in a single season, releasing all prisoners, and then that same turn enter diplomacy and offer those provinces back, maybe with a little cash on top. You'll probably get the cash right back so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

A more experienced diplomat can make it slightly cheaper, but not truly easier. Not really worth bothering with. Usually I only see their priorities after a deal has been rejected, either by me or them, and even then it doesn't always seem accurate.

Every turn that you're at war your relations go down. Every time you do anything other than occupy and release you're grinding those relations down further. In my experience I've never gotten an enemy to accept being my vassal unless I had at least so-so relations.

I still haven't started this one, lots going on, but it's definitely on the plate.

[lilo lol]

My first attempt failed. I was playing the english vh/vh in vanilla and was trying to make scotland my vassals. I was besieging their capital and only city with three full stacks, had relations up to so-so and no matter what I did, they wouldn't accept. I'm going to try gifting them half my empire now to get realitions up to perfect and than I'll buy the provinces back. If that doesn't work I'll switch to Ltc and hope that the AI there is more reasonable.

[ReiseReise]

I was besieging their capital and only city with three full stacks, had relations up to so-so and no matter what I did, they wouldn't accept.

If the AI listened to reason or had something that even resembled a survival instinct, this wouldn't be a Challenge, now would it.

[seari]

All Vassal Challenge: Attempt One.

Lands to Conquer, Very Hard/Very Hard

Update:

As Byzantium, year 1110ad, roughly turn 23.

I made 12 factions my allies, and took on Sicily and Venice. My relations with all my allies are at Good or better, and the Pope is my ally. My reputation is Trustworthy. Milan just attacked Venice with a full stack of doom. Sicily has been pushed back into Palermo, as the sole remaining province. Cannot capture, as this would eliminate the faction.

Venice has been pushed out of Iraklion, Durazzo, and many battles have been won in Ragusa and Zagreb.

On the conversion front: Iconium is a third Orthodox, Italy is becoming Orthodox. I have taken Naples and Florence, and turned Florence into a castle.

Due to extensive releasing of prisoners and occupation of cities, all of my generals have 3 chivalry or better, some have 5 or 6. Most of my generals have two silver chevrons or better.

Sicily finally allied with Venice, and decided to throw everything that they both have at Iraklion. They have lots of medium and heavy cavalry, spears, and generals. The rest of their respective empires are undefended. Over half of their total forces, for both of them, are seiging Iraklion. I have sufficient defenses to withstand the assault. When their assault fails, I will track down the remnants of their forces and capture them.

I recently ransomed the Venetian Doge for over 13,000 florins. My economy is thriving. I have trade rights with all the neighbors that I am not at war with, and a port-based economy. recently built mines and an Ikoner's studio.

Thus far I am having difficulty forcing even Sicily to accept a vassalage. However, I have a plan.

I will take Tunis and Tripoli, and I will gift Tripoli to the Sicilians. Then I will take Palermo, thus not eliminating Sicily. (Since Sicily has a general outside of Palermo, killing their King will only make that other general their king). Tripoli is so completely worthless that they will be unable to sustain an offensive against anyone, and isolated enough that they will most likely just build up defenses to repel oddball assaults.

In order to convince them to accept vassalage, I will probably have to gift them Palermo and Tunis, possibly Naples, thus restoring their empire and thensome, but at least I will have accomplished my Sicilian objective. My rating of Trustworthy, coupled with an eventual economic powerhouse enabling me to gift lots of florins, will probably result in obtaining the vassal state.

If anyone has any suggestions as to how I can get them to accept vassalage, just let me know. They are pretty much beaten.

Do they need to be the ones to use diplomacy on me, and then I counter their offer of peace with vassalage in order to make it more effective?

Just give them provinces one at a time. After every province, check if 'become vassal' is balanced, otherwise give another province. If they are military crippled and you are thrustworthy, they will soon accept. You can always buy those provinces back.

[Askthepizzaguy]

If the AI listened to reason or had something that even resembled a survival instinct, this wouldn't be a Challenge, now would it.

No it would not, given the fact that POUNDING them militarily with 12 allies at your back with no time restrictions is the simplest thing ever.

The whole point is convincing everyone to be your vassal. This is essentially a diplomatic challenge, not particularly a military one.

Can you prevent wars of aggression and isolate all the major powers without destroying them?

It's the ultimate chivalry campaign.

[Yoyoma1910]

So I've recently started playing around with the Portuguese, but have decided to start my campaign over with this challenge in mind.


Vanilla 1.2
Difficulty H/VH. As I'm not a complete masochist when it comes to diplomacy or agent percentages.


Thoughts:

I think one of the main points to achieving victory in this challenge will be to create buffer states in hot spots, such as between Byzantium and the Turks. There are a couple of factions I'm worried about, namely Sicily and Milan, as they seem to want to get in it with everyone. Milan may be able to be relegated to landlocked empire, which might calm them down a bit. But Sicily, I don't know. I like though on Tunis, but I'm afraid of their relationship with the Island of Sardinia.


Why Portugal:

The mass amount of sea I'm going to have to cover in this hopscotch empire has made me think that Portugal naval strength may come in handy.

They're also one of those factions that seem to get at it with everyone, so that'll be one less punk to deal with. On the other hand, I haven't really played with them much and usually end up killing them off once they start getting on my nerves , so I don't completely know what to expect from my faction. I figure this is a reasonable trade off.

And I'd like to try this as a Catholic faction.




Any thoughts?

[Ramses II CP]

I've been thinking it may be necessary to place your borders around the borders of your protectorates. Think being France with your vassal Milan holding Paris, Rheims, and Metz. Venice gets Bern and Staufen, etc.

This would make it very difficult to continue to field effective armies, as you're constantly giving away your core territories, but you can prevent non-vassaled states from attacking your vassals.

I haven't tested it though, so I have no idea how workable it is. I'm still writing up old campaigns.

[The Wandering Scholar]

Now this sounds HARD.

[seari]

First try..failed

Hungary started well with a crusade to the holy lands, taking turkey and egypt as vassals, but a like 40 turns later. A jihad on jerusalem ruined everything and that with very good relations

next time, i'll try portugal

[Askthepizzaguy]

If the "all" in the All Vassal Challenge is too difficult or impossible, just go with "most" instead.

How many can you get?

[seari]

If the "all" in the All Vassal Challenge is too difficult or impossible, just go with "most" instead.

How many can you get?

maybe I'll try that. In one of my previous games with Venice. I got Milan,Sicily and byzantium as a vassal but then, Sicily blocked the port of durrazo, which was byzantine then, and everything was lost.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I have some further advice:

You don't HAVE to make them your vassal immediately!

Lets propose an alternative: Sicily for example, is down to her final province and stubbornly refuses a vassalage. So, we station a half stack army of a poor general and some good anti-cavalry spearmen to lay seige, break off the seige, and generally corner and weaken them ad infinitum.

They have no remaining armies, so attacking others is impossible. You can also blockade their remaining port.

By the time the challenge is finished, the crown may have changed hands once, twice, three times a lady, however they are still at war and you have provinces they desire. Keep a diplomat nearby and allow them to produce diplomats occassionally. When you are ready to force your final, quarrelsome nations into vassalage, offer them terms of money, provinces, and so forth every turn. If that doesn't work, quickly take back all those provinces on a single turn, occupy, release prisoners, and attempt to force a vassalage again.

Do this for your particularly quarrelsome factions and they will not have a chance to break their vassalage.