Jews: Why the animosity towards them?

[Martok]

(Note: I suppose this could be considered more Backroom-ish material by some, so mods feel free to move this as you see fit.)


The title of this thread says it all, really. Why have the Jewish people been so persistently oppressed & persecuted throughout the centuries -- seemingly regardless of region, nation, or time period? I don't know if it's because I'm American or what, but I've always been utterly baffled as to why this is.

[Fragony]

Jews are perhaps bit too succesfull integrating in their society's, very much the same but still a bit different, rituals and such. Gives them an aura of secret society's I guess.

[Csargo]

I would assume the Christian's persecuted to Jews because they blamed them for the death of Jesus. I guess they were just an easy target. I'm sure there are other people with more insight.

[Incongruous]

I believe that many nobles used the Jews to take out loans and woul not pay them back, so to give that a sense of legitimacy they would claim that there was no need to pay them back as they were murderers of Christ and such. They would then provoke severe actions against them.

Is that why Edward expelled them?

[Geoffrey S]

I think what Bopa said is central to the matter. Jews took up the foremost place in early financial systems and moneylending, a potentially lucrative business upon which even kings were dependant. When things went pear-shaped for said kings, which they frequently did, and they couldn't/wouldn't pay back their loans it was considered far easier to expel the Jews in general.

[Husar]

What we learned in school was that they became rich due to the money lending and banking business and the christians weren't allowed to do that as it was considered sinful. Of course that made them rich heathens and many people were also jealous and jealousy can make people quite cruel...

[Vuk]

I would assume the Christian's persecuted to Jews because they blamed them for the death of Jesus. I guess they were just an easy target. I'm sure there are other people with more insight.

Sorry, but I do got to say something here. ;)
First of all, let me just point out that untill Christ's death there were no Christians. All who became Christian were Jews at that time. Secondly, it was not the "Jews" anymore than anyone else who killed Christ. It was EVERYONE in the world's collective sin that neccesitated His killing. The people who acted it out (jewish, pagan roman, etc) were just tools.

Now let me make an important distinction: Jewish Religion --- Jewish Race.
There is a massive difference between the two. While many deny that there is a Jewish Race (I should know that there is, as I am one :P), there actually is. Many of the Jews who were persecuted in Nazi Germany and now claim reperations (including one of my grandparents and her children) were strong Christians, but "Jewish" by race. Also, during the Inquisition, it was race more than religion that was being looked at. If you want more proof that there is a Jewish race, take the insults torward our Kingly noses :P (Which are actually quite attractive. And you English have no room to be talking, as you have notoriously big noses too!! :P lol), they are insulted for a reason. We really do have wider mouths and bigger noses, like many people who originated form the Middle East (including most Arabs). Keeping all that in mind, I think that it is pretty clear that there is a definate Jewish race. (though I am unaware of our origins in the Middle Period)

Now that we make the distinction, let's look at each seperately, then we can look at them collectively.

Let's start with Ancient times, directly after the death of Christ. During that time NO ONE had a thing against the Jews. The Christians really did not blame them for killing Christ (and if you read your Bible you will see this, they attribute it to "us", meaning all people collectively).
What happened though is that Jews (meaning religion, not race. Many of the Jews I am talking about were Middle Eastern, European, African, etc in desent) felt themselves losing power as the Christian religion got more followers, and they thought that Christians were blasphemous. They then start commiting attrocities against the Christians and Romans. The Romans later on eventually started persecuting the Christians as well.
For that part (the ancient history), you need look no further than Edward Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, one of the most trusted sources in the world. (also one of my personal favorites)
In response to the attrocities the Jews were commiting, the Romans made several huge and indiscriminant slaughters.

Jews became "outcasts" in many senses (and this is arguable), and had to form their own societies inside of societies, since there were no longer any solid Jewish societies.
I believe that is one of the reasons that they were viewed as "dark" by many people. Indeed they did "dark" and attrocious things (as peoples of all religions and without religions have), and when they did, it was used as more proof to cement people's view of them.
Another thing that could have attributed to their image (and this has already been touched on) is that many of them were merchants who turned to "usurery" (which is the old way of saying money-lending, in other words what modern banks do).
Why this is I do not know, maybe because of their outcast position in society, maybe just the way things turned out.
Money corrupts though, and some of these lenders became notorious for confinscating everything from, and even torturing the people who could not pay back their loans. Which isn't to say that all Jews did this (or Jewish lenders), or that non-Jewish money-lenders didn't, but the point is that the Jews got an image from it. (as unfair as it may be)
This is one of the reasons that during the Medieval times and up they were looked down on.

As far as the "race" of Jews, it simply is the decendants of the tribe of Judah (or -arguably- the decendants of one who came from Jerusalem).
The actual "race" of Jews were not the subject of persecutions untill the late Medieval period when (to escape persecution) Jews started claiming to be Christians when they were not. The Jewish "race" identified strongly with the Jewish religion and had the same name...lines were blurred and people of the Jewish "race" were from there on also subject to persecution.

That is where the seperation ends and you have to talk about them collectively. From then on if you were not of the Jewish "race", but of the Jewish religion, or if you were not of the Jewish religion, but of the Jewish "race", you were suspect. Given the seperate aspect of Jewish culture (the "dark", "mysterious" aspect), and the rep that Jews had gotten, it is easy to see how people like Hitler could have used them as scapegoats. ("Stab in the Back")

If you had asked why the Irish were the subject of centuries of persecution, the answer would have simply been "They were the small people, and the Giants wanted their land", but with my people (I actually have both Irish and Jewish blood in me:P, but I am referring to Jewish), the answer is more complicated.

Hope this makes sense. It is a very sensitive issue (even to me), so it is hard to really research it, but to understand the present, you gotta go REALLY far back sometimes.


Vuk


P.S. Hope history or my views didn't offend anyone. If you are Jewish, look at the source I suggested and read a bit more about it, if you are Irish...face it, it was a tiny country .

[Spartan198]

Jews are really good with money? Wow,I always thought that was a racial stereotype...
Well,irregardless,I have nothing against anyone,no matter the religion,unless they try to push their faith on me.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Jews are really good with money? Wow,I always thought that was a racial stereotype...

Not more so than anyone else who has the inclination to learn, but Christians were not allowed to bank in this sense, and it was one of the few good jobs available to Jews at the time. That's where the stereotype developed.

I've always disliked that the Jews are called a race instead of a religion. A German or American convert with no basis on their ethnicity. Besides, even Jews in the ultimate sense of the word are Israelites and Hebrews.

Anyways, just my little rant.

Politically Correct Disclaimer: I have nothing against any race, religion, creed, cult (except Scientology), etc., etc., etc. that has existed or may ever exist in the future, etc., etc., etc.

[Zajuts149]

I think it's basicallly because they wouldn't lie down and they wouldn't assimilate. So many peoples have been annihilated through genocide, persecutions and the fact that they were just gobbled up by a superior culture. In ancient times, most peoples religion was Polytheistic, ie they believed that there were many gods and deities. There were bigger gods and smaller gods. It was usual to honour local gods, even if they were not your god, because you wouldn't like a gods wrath upon you. These superstitions were common. The Jews were monotheistic, and channeled their superstition away from all deities except one. Naturally, those whose god didn't get respect were a little miffed
The Jews kept their one god through all adversity, and that kept them from being assimilated into greater cultures, such as the Egyptian, Persian and Roman. After the Jews were cast out of Palestine and Judea, they became strangers everywhere they went. And nobody likes strangers, right?
The main difference between the Jews and other persecuted minorities through the ages, is that the Jews are still around. They have a sense of their "Jewishness". Weaker cultures have just succumbed to the pressure.

PS. I find the notion of a Jewish "race" utterly racist and despicable. As far as I'm concerned, The only race that matters is the human race.

[KarlXII]

(Note: I suppose this could be considered more Backroom-ish material by some, so mods feel free to move this as you see fit.)


The title of this thread says it all, really. Why have the Jewish people been so persistently oppressed & persecuted throughout the centuries -- seemingly regardless of region, nation, or time period? I don't know if it's because I'm American or what, but I've always been utterly baffled as to why this is.

I think it's mainly because, other than the Biblical Kingdom, the Jews have not had a very large representation in political and cultural areas. Particular Christain hate could be contributed to the fact that the Jews wanted Jesus killed, and continue not to accept him as Messiah. It can be compared to the Gypsies, a people not very well represented in politics, and have had a history of oppression.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

With such small populations, they are often the scapegoat for governments that need to unite the majority populace. For example: The plague stirred up trouble and blame directed on the minority in Germany. Spanish were having problems with the two empires on the Iberian penninsula so they expelled/murdered the Jews and recently converted Christian-Jews.

I think the size of the group and how spread out they are has had the most impact.

[KrooK]

How about another reply
- Jews started massive murdering first Christians.

[Askthepizzaguy]

How about another reply
- Jews started massive murdering first Christians.

I believe the Romans did as well. Why no animosity towards the Romans?


In all seriousness, if people are concerned about crimes which happened 2 thousand years ago, then I think it's high time we offer the Jews reparations for slavery... in EGYPT.

[KarlXII]

I believe the Romans did as well. Why no animosity towards the Romans?

Why no animosity to Romans?

Because it's the Jews!!

[Askthepizzaguy]

It's gotten to the point where whenever I hear someone say the word "Jew", I assume they have something defamatory, slanderous, and racist to say about them.

I've never been personally maligned by a person of Jewish descent or of Jewish faith. That does not mean I automatically agree with everything they believe or do, but I do not see the harm. As for the Israeli situation, since Israel is made up of Jews, Christians, and Muslims, you can't simply blame the Jews for the Israeli/Palestinian standoff. I've also noticed that when Israel acts, it is in self-defense, and then retreats back to their own soil, while the stated goals of the Arab groups who border Israel is to destroy Israel itself and drive them into the sea. They violate numerous cease-fires and fire into crowds of innocent civilians with rocket launchers and use bombs to devastate markets. I don't recall Israel ever attempting to exterminate Arab civilians.

It's kind of hard not to take a side here. But it's also a separate discussion from the Jewish animosity question, so I will shaddap. I understand there are militant Jews who are radical extremists who would do anything to defend Israel, but compared to the sheer number of anti-Jewish extremists, it's hard to blame them. For as long as these militant extremists exist, there can be no peace settlement between the two sides.

And until mankind learns to leave the horrors of the past in the past, and simply learn from past mistakes, the old hatreds and ignorance will never die. Like a virus, it is passed on from one generation to another, instead of dying naturally along with its host .

[KarlXII]

How about another reply
- Jews started massive murdering first Christians.

Evidence?

[CBR]

This thread seems to have run it's course and I think it's best to let Askthepizzaguy's post be the last.

This is the Monastery and not the Backroom on a bad day.


CBR

[JR-]

How about another reply
- Jews started massive murdering first Christians.

that is quite literally a worthless comment.


now here is where i interject with a generalising comment:

in all my travel around the world, and given my polish girlfriend leading me to spend a lot of time in poland, never have i come across a nation with such an all-encompassing acceptance that jews are the cause of all their nations troubles, not to be trusted, and outright devious as a race. It is pervasive among the over forties, less so for the younger generations.
the phrase; "he is a jew" is used with a casual loathing that really is something to behold, and this from people i otherwise like and respect.

fortunately it appears to be a dieing trend as the grip of the catholic church lessens and millions of young poles live abroad.

[Askthepizzaguy]

This is something that has been bothering me.

Jews, gays, blacks, arabs, etc...

These groups are often scapegoats and are blamed for society's problems. I am especially offended whenever some reverend or pastor stands up and begins condemning homosexuality as being immoral. I often scratch my head and think to myself... why them? The rational explanation, if any, that they give is because sexual activity and promiscuity outside the realm of traditional marriage leads to the spread of disease. But at the same time, I think to myself how guilty of that straight people are... so it makes no sense to focus exclusively on the gays. Then they quote passages from the Bible, Torah, or Qu'ran (all stemming from Leviticus 18) which states:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviticus_18
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

But they conveniently ignore passages from the Bible, Torah, or Qu'ran which condemn other activities. I'm not even quoting the most ridiculous of them:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/lev/20.html#9
20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

If you should ever swear and or insult your parents, you're supposed to be killed on the spot.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/lev/21.html#9
21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

If the daughter of a priest (oooh, just the priests' daughter? What about a cardinal, rabbi, or imam? What about the rest of us) profanes herself by "playing the whore" (interpret as you will), we need to burn her to death.

Then there are certain passages dealing with what kinds of meat you are allowed to eat, and when you are allowed to eat them. I know everyone here knows exactly what I'm talking about, and follows these laws as strictly as they interpret the passage about men lying with men.



And it's such a small portion of the book. Why they spend all day, every day, rallying against the gays, instead of giving them "equal time" with all the other so-called sins... isn't that twisting and warping the word of "God" to give so much weight to one part of his "written word" and almost no attention to the other parts?

We can find plenty of people who can quote the anti-gay part of Leviticus. How many of us here can quote the parts where people "begat" other people for generations? Hmmm? Isn't that important stuff? It's the word of the Lord, so I wonder why people aren't paying as much attention to that. Frankly, if I were convinced something was the WORD OF GOD I would memorize that sh.

So, other than organized religion, there's very little reason to condemn gayness. So let's move on.
____________________________________

Jews.

My, oh my, have they been given a bum rap. Everything in the world is apparently their fault.



If you've seen a list of things people blame the Jews for, then you've noticed that it just gets longer and longer, and more ridiculous as we go along. Apparently, the Jews control the world economy, and are the puppet masters of world politics, and control Hollywood and the mass media, and are in control of the Christians who follow them, and they control the entire West.

Yes, given how much influence Jews have, it's amazing how history has treated them. These people, if they indeed have so much control over the world, must all be masochistic. I am beginning to wonder if there was a century where the Jews were not mass murdered or otherwise persecuted. Lets' check the history books.

20th century, ummm genocide.
19th century, Dreyfus Trial, pogroms in Russia.
18th century, stuggles for emancipation and equal treatment (almost a breath of fresh air)
17th century, hundreds of thousands slaughtered by the Cossacks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chmielnicki_uprising
16th century, end of the Inquisition, expulsion from European nations by force
15th century, Spanish Inquisition
14th century, 100,000 Jews expelled from France, subjected to the Shepherd's crusades http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepherds%27_Crusade
13th century, Banning from England, first Shepherd's crusade.
12th century, Second Crusade, Jews in France frequently massacred.
11th century, German Crusade. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Crusade,_1096
10th century, (still checking... all I found so far was that the newly appointed Fatmid Caliph of Islam persecuted Jews)

Dark ages get pretty sketchy. But we do know Jews were persecuted and forced to convert to Islam, whenever they were found in conquered territory. Then prior to that, the Romans treated the jews pretty poorly... early christianity (prior to Islam) treated the jews very poorly. Christians hated the jews very much so. Around 0AD and into BC times, Jews were persecuted by the Romans, and prior to that there was something that happened in Egypt involving a lot of slavery.

And that covers most of Jewish history that I, a non-Jew, can easily find. I am quite certain someone who is a Jewish scholar could fill in the blanks of what I am missing. But this is very telling:

According to James Carroll, "Jews accounted for 10% of the total population of the Roman Empire. By that ratio, if other factors had not intervened, there would be 200 million Jews in the world today, instead of something like 13 million."
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine%27s_Sword


I think we can safely conclude that the Jews are not in possession of the world, and that they are therefore NOT the source of all the world's problems. Duh.

__________________________________

Black people;

Enslaved for centuries by European traders and settlers, conquered and persecuted and butchered by European Imperialism, conquered and forced to convert to Islam by Arab invaders, and otherwise maligned since the time of the Roman empire.

I would do them justice by adding more, but it's almost time for me to go to work. And never once did I find that a large nubian empire went around conquering everyone. The only people that black people seem to have persecuted were other black people, and recently, white minorities (I wonder why?)

________________________

Arabs; conquered by Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, armies of Islam, Crusaders, European Imperialists, and now they fight amongst themselves for having slightly different interpretations of Islam. Plus that whole Iraq thing.

Since 9/11 they have been hated by the entire West, because most Arabs are Muslim, and apparently all Muslims are guilty of the crimes of their minority extremists.

_________________________

I could do this for every single minority group. If you don't vastly outnumber people, you've been hated and persecuted, for no reason whatsoever.

Why the animosity towards the Jews? For the same reasons that there is animosity towards any group. A combination of ignorance, blind hatred, greed, envy, desire for power, lies, propaganda, religion and superstition, and a wonderful thing called tradition.

I conclude that the human race needs to be lined up, and slapped in the face repeatedly, one at a time, until everyone knows what it feels like to be persecuted.


Actually the only solution is education, tolerance laws and legal justice, and the hope that hate and ignorance dies naturally with the current generations.