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(Note: I suppose this could be considered more Backroom-ish material by some, so mods feel free to move this as you see fit.)


The title of this thread says it all, really. Why have the Jewish people been so persistently oppressed & persecuted throughout the centuries -- seemingly regardless of region, nation, or time period? I don't know if it's because I'm American or what, but I've always been utterly baffled as to why this is.

Jews are perhaps bit too succesfull integrating in their society's, very much the same but still a bit different, rituals and such. Gives them an aura of secret society's I guess.

I would assume the Christian's persecuted to Jews because they blamed them for the death of Jesus. I guess they were just an easy target. I'm sure there are other people with more insight.

I believe that many nobles used the Jews to take out loans and woul not pay them back, so to give that a sense of legitimacy they would claim that there was no need to pay them back as they were murderers of Christ and such. They would then provoke severe actions against them.

Is that why Edward expelled them?

I think what Bopa said is central to the matter. Jews took up the foremost place in early financial systems and moneylending, a potentially lucrative business upon which even kings were dependant. When things went pear-shaped for said kings, which they frequently did, and they couldn't/wouldn't pay back their loans it was considered far easier to expel the Jews in general.

What we learned in school was that they became rich due to the money lending and banking business and the christians weren't allowed to do that as it was considered sinful. Of course that made them rich heathens and many people were also jealous and jealousy can make people quite cruel...

this is a hard question

Usurperstuff was then but there is also such a thing as now. And back then there was also more to it, massacres of jews in the plague-days for example.

Economy
Majority of Jews were bankers [loans with abnormal interests] and traders not producers. It was forbidden to both Christians and Muslims to loan money with interests.

Religion
Jews were blamed for death of Jesus Christ.
Because of Talmud.

And
They refuses to be part of community/society were they lived.

Jews were targeted for the same reason any other group is targeted: they were a minority. Minorities make easy victims for group angst in times of stress. The unique aspect of the Jews was that they were a minority in every place they lived. Most minorities, whether religions, racial, ethic, or otherwise, had a homeland where they were the majority and would thus not face discrimination. That was not true for the Jews until the 20th Century. They were minorities everywhere, so they were vulnerable to persecution everywhere.

Your question got me thinking, and so I looked it up on this site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_antisemitism

It's a pretty scholarly article with many additional links provided. I had no idea that Antisemitism went back so far.

That's simply not true anymore after the French Revolution, at least in France and western Europe.

Many great french thinkers/politicians in the late 19th/early 20th were jews. Most of them were also strong nationalists. Yet France was back then one of the most antisemitic country.

Any small, self selected group that holds itself apart in some substantial way from the majority of society is discriminated against and subject to animosity. This is the nature of humanity. Judaism is an especially well known example of this behavior because the Jewish meme is particularly successful at holding onto it's constinuency, while the members have, often as a tool of oppression, been repeatedly scattered across the face of the world to form small enclaves.

If you think about some of the recent tragedies in Africa, this is such a strong pattern that in cases where differences are extremely minor the populace deliberately exaggerates them to allow the discrimination behavior to occur.

Jews were not liked because they;
1) were slaver traders for muslims (in the dark age).
2) had powerful banking system into whole Europe (actually they were not alone - Italians were good rivals) but their cooperation was best
3) were hiring villages from nobles and became supervisors for peasants - then forced peasants to pay horrible taxes
4) cooperated with communists into XX century - many Jews were happily joining and supporting communism system.


In Poland most important were reason 3 and 4. Because of reason 3 many jews were being killed by ukrainian peasants during Chmielnicki uprising.
Into XX century they were not liked, because many Jews joined communist parties and fought against Poland into war with Russia at 1920 year.
Some Jews support Poland into that war, but most of them became neutral or supported Russia.

Sorry, but I do got to say something here. ;)
First of all, let me just point out that untill Christ's death there were no Christians. All who became Christian were Jews at that time. Secondly, it was not the "Jews" anymore than anyone else who killed Christ. It was EVERYONE in the world's collective sin that neccesitated His killing. The people who acted it out (jewish, pagan roman, etc) were just tools.

Now let me make an important distinction: Jewish Religion --- Jewish Race.
There is a massive difference between the two. While many deny that there is a Jewish Race (I should know that there is, as I am one :P), there actually is. Many of the Jews who were persecuted in Nazi Germany and now claim reperations (including one of my grandparents and her children) were strong Christians, but "Jewish" by race. Also, during the Inquisition, it was race more than religion that was being looked at. If you want more proof that there is a Jewish race, take the insults torward our Kingly noses :P (Which are actually quite attractive. And you English have no room to be talking, as you have notoriously big noses too!! :P lol), they are insulted for a reason. We really do have wider mouths and bigger noses, like many people who originated form the Middle East (including most Arabs). Keeping all that in mind, I think that it is pretty clear that there is a definate Jewish race. (though I am unaware of our origins in the Middle Period)

Now that we make the distinction, let's look at each seperately, then we can look at them collectively.

Let's start with Ancient times, directly after the death of Christ. During that time NO ONE had a thing against the Jews. The Christians really did not blame them for killing Christ (and if you read your Bible you will see this, they attribute it to "us", meaning all people collectively).
What happened though is that Jews (meaning religion, not race. Many of the Jews I am talking about were Middle Eastern, European, African, etc in desent) felt themselves losing power as the Christian religion got more followers, and they thought that Christians were blasphemous. They then start commiting attrocities against the Christians and Romans. The Romans later on eventually started persecuting the Christians as well.
For that part (the ancient history), you need look no further than Edward Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, one of the most trusted sources in the world. (also one of my personal favorites)
In response to the attrocities the Jews were commiting, the Romans made several huge and indiscriminant slaughters.

Jews became "outcasts" in many senses (and this is arguable), and had to form their own societies inside of societies, since there were no longer any solid Jewish societies.
I believe that is one of the reasons that they were viewed as "dark" by many people. Indeed they did "dark" and attrocious things (as peoples of all religions and without religions have), and when they did, it was used as more proof to cement people's view of them.
Another thing that could have attributed to their image (and this has already been touched on) is that many of them were merchants who turned to "usurery" (which is the old way of saying money-lending, in other words what modern banks do).
Why this is I do not know, maybe because of their outcast position in society, maybe just the way things turned out.
Money corrupts though, and some of these lenders became notorious for confinscating everything from, and even torturing the people who could not pay back their loans. Which isn't to say that all Jews did this (or Jewish lenders), or that non-Jewish money-lenders didn't, but the point is that the Jews got an image from it. (as unfair as it may be)
This is one of the reasons that during the Medieval times and up they were looked down on.

As far as the "race" of Jews, it simply is the decendants of the tribe of Judah (or -arguably- the decendants of one who came from Jerusalem).
The actual "race" of Jews were not the subject of persecutions untill the late Medieval period when (to escape persecution) Jews started claiming to be Christians when they were not. The Jewish "race" identified strongly with the Jewish religion and had the same name...lines were blurred and people of the Jewish "race" were from there on also subject to persecution.

That is where the seperation ends and you have to talk about them collectively. From then on if you were not of the Jewish "race", but of the Jewish religion, or if you were not of the Jewish religion, but of the Jewish "race", you were suspect. Given the seperate aspect of Jewish culture (the "dark", "mysterious" aspect), and the rep that Jews had gotten, it is easy to see how people like Hitler could have used them as scapegoats. ("Stab in the Back")

If you had asked why the Irish were the subject of centuries of persecution, the answer would have simply been "They were the small people, and the Giants wanted their land", but with my people (I actually have both Irish and Jewish blood in me:P, but I am referring to Jewish), the answer is more complicated.

Hope this makes sense. It is a very sensitive issue (even to me), so it is hard to really research it, but to understand the present, you gotta go REALLY far back sometimes.


Vuk


P.S. Hope history or my views didn't offend anyone. If you are Jewish, look at the source I suggested and read a bit more about it, if you are Irish...face it, it was a tiny country .

Jews are really good with money? Wow,I always thought that was a racial stereotype...
Well,irregardless,I have nothing against anyone,no matter the religion,unless they try to push their faith on me.

Not more so than anyone else who has the inclination to learn, but Christians were not allowed to bank in this sense, and it was one of the few good jobs available to Jews at the time. That's where the stereotype developed.

I've always disliked that the Jews are called a race instead of a religion. A German or American convert with no basis on their ethnicity. Besides, even Jews in the ultimate sense of the word are Israelites and Hebrews.

Anyways, just my little rant.

Politically Correct Disclaimer: I have nothing against any race, religion, creed, cult (except Scientology), etc., etc., etc. that has existed or may ever exist in the future, etc., etc., etc.

lol, as offensive as you may find it, there is and always has been a "race" of Jews in people's minds, whether it exsists in actuallity or not.


lol, the Jews have certainly had more "experience" throughout history than anyone else, lol. It is a steryotype if you are judging an individual by that. For instance, I would be a very poor example as I have always had a below average income even with several degrees. :P (and it is not through lack of work)

Vuk

Why would I be offended?


Do I sense a racial stereotype?

I think it's basicallly because they wouldn't lie down and they wouldn't assimilate. So many peoples have been annihilated through genocide, persecutions and the fact that they were just gobbled up by a superior culture. In ancient times, most peoples religion was Polytheistic, ie they believed that there were many gods and deities. There were bigger gods and smaller gods. It was usual to honour local gods, even if they were not your god, because you wouldn't like a gods wrath upon you. These superstitions were common. The Jews were monotheistic, and channeled their superstition away from all deities except one. Naturally, those whose god didn't get respect were a little miffed
The Jews kept their one god through all adversity, and that kept them from being assimilated into greater cultures, such as the Egyptian, Persian and Roman. After the Jews were cast out of Palestine and Judea, they became strangers everywhere they went. And nobody likes strangers, right?
The main difference between the Jews and other persecuted minorities through the ages, is that the Jews are still around. They have a sense of their "Jewishness". Weaker cultures have just succumbed to the pressure.

PS. I find the notion of a Jewish "race" utterly racist and despicable. As far as I'm concerned, The only race that matters is the human race.

That answer your question? :P
As for you Zajuts, as much as you disagree with it, to many people ones heritage is extremely important they classify and judge everyone by that. For that reason it is important to realize that if we are to understand WHY people do things. See what I mean?





What you said about polytheistic and monotheistic religions and their effects on the Jews is very incorrect. The people who believed in polytheistic religion fought with each other as much as anyone else. And don't forget the attrocities that Jews commited against Christians. In Greece they 220,000, and in Cyprus 240,000 Christians were tortured and killed by Jews because of their religion. Is that what their religion taught? No. Is that a genetic trait? No.
Point being, people are people, and people do horrible things to each other. Polythiestic or monothiestic, it doesn't matter, people still stink just as bad.

As I said, I think that the main reason for their persecution was because of memory (no matter how distorted) of bad things they had done in the past, and because rather than having a country, they lived in societies in other countries which caused mistrusted.
Is it rational to hate or distrust a person because they happen to be a Jew? Not at all. Does that mean that he/she is any different than anyone else? (except our sexy English noses ) No.
You have to judge people as individuals, but people don't do that. The human mind categorizes people and there is not much that can be done about it, lol.

And rightly so, but the heritage of my religion and the heritage of my ethnicity are two things I believe are very seperate.



No

I know that they are seperate things, and in fact, that was one of my main points. If you re-read my first post you will see that.

And I do not believe a Jewish race exists. I believe races exist that have a mainly Jewish religion, which is true enough, but I don't think Jews are a race, simply enough. I hold them in the same esteem as I hold any other religion.

Good for you, but there are many Jews who would disagree with you. Many Jews believe themselves as the sole decendants of Shem and the house of Judah. I myself am not sure I believe this as so many lines have gotten crossed along the way, but it is very sensitive and important to some. And to some, it is a source of hate. For that reason it is important to reconginize it.

Jewish race does not exist and never existed. Jews are same race like Arabs.
Of course some of them believe that they are better race - but its just a racism.

Well from my personal experience jews have a great diversity in skin, eyes and hair colour ranging from black ethopians to blonde and blue northeuropean. So de facto their are a mishmash of certain groups of our human race which happen to have similar cultures and one religion. Actually I read some studies that genetic groups of a certain spectrum of the jewish humans are far more related to the islamic humans called palestinians.

Cheers
OA

lol, again, you are confusing the concet of race and religion.
Wether or not there is a seperate Jewish "race" or not is irrelevant, what is important is that the concept exists and Jews believe it. Both Jews and Arabs claim to be the decendants of Shem, and who cares if neither of the are or they both are? (Other than them obviously :P)
Point is that they both believe it and people classify that "race" of people as "Jews".
The question asked was "Jews: Why the animosity towards them?"
Therefore people's concepts "true or not" are the most imortant factor. Whether they are correct or not is an entirely different debate (one I am not sure about and will not be dragged into).
Point is, Hitler thought that there was a race of Jews; my Grandmother thinks there is a race of Jews. It is a concept that is prevelant among most of the population and has been for thousands of years. That is how it helps answer the question.

As a Jew myself, I find the above interesting. Certainly, there is no single race of Jews. However, I very much identify myself on an ethnic basis as a 'Jew.' In fact, I consider myself a Jew, even though I'm an atheist. I am a Jew, but I am not Jewish. Given that fact, if it is not my religion that identifies me as a Jew, then it is a cultural and ethnic background. In my particular case, I am an Ashkenazi Jew. This is one of the two major Jewish groups in the world today, with the other being Sephardic. The Ashkenazis have a historic origin from central and eastern Europe and are the traditional Yiddish speakers known so well from history and modern comedy. This is true for my Jewish family history as well, which originated from Austria and Poland.

My family largely originated in America in New York City and I have several relatives who are the living embodiment of the New York Jew stereotype. It is not a criticism, it is simply reality. Based on what I have experienced in my life as a Jew, there is as much to classify me as a member of the Jewish race as there is to classify anyone else as a member of the African race. My family demonstrates several consistent and prominent physical features that identify them (large noses, dark hair). This seems to me to be no different than having a different skin tone. They also have cultural traditions that differentiate them from other Caucasians.

If these things do not differentiate us as a different race, what makes a race? Also, it seems like many people equate the term "race" with a negative connotation. Why is that? Simply saying someone is from a different race does not make them inferior in any way. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging our physical and cultural differences.

Well, there is the argument that there is no such thing as "race", and that it is merely a social construct. Therefore, race can be defined in almost anyway one chooses. Few, if any, refer to "an English (or French or German) race" anymore, but it wasn't uncommon in the 19th Century to do so.

In this particular case race, religion, and culture all overlap. One can be a Jew by any one of the above or by any combination thereof.

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