Jews: Why the animosity towards them?

[Zajuts149]

I think it's basicallly because they wouldn't lie down and they wouldn't assimilate. So many peoples have been annihilated through genocide, persecutions and the fact that they were just gobbled up by a superior culture. In ancient times, most peoples religion was Polytheistic, ie they believed that there were many gods and deities. There were bigger gods and smaller gods. It was usual to honour local gods, even if they were not your god, because you wouldn't like a gods wrath upon you. These superstitions were common. The Jews were monotheistic, and channeled their superstition away from all deities except one. Naturally, those whose god didn't get respect were a little miffed
The Jews kept their one god through all adversity, and that kept them from being assimilated into greater cultures, such as the Egyptian, Persian and Roman. After the Jews were cast out of Palestine and Judea, they became strangers everywhere they went. And nobody likes strangers, right?
The main difference between the Jews and other persecuted minorities through the ages, is that the Jews are still around. They have a sense of their "Jewishness". Weaker cultures have just succumbed to the pressure.

PS. I find the notion of a Jewish "race" utterly racist and despicable. As far as I'm concerned, The only race that matters is the human race.

[Vuk]

Why would I be offended?


Do I sense a racial stereotype?

PS. I find the notion of a Jewish "race" utterly racist and despicable. As far as I'm concerned, The only race that matters is the human race.

That answer your question? :P
As for you Zajuts, as much as you disagree with it, to many people ones heritage is extremely important they classify and judge everyone by that. For that reason it is important to realize that if we are to understand WHY people do things. See what I mean?

I think it's basicallly because they wouldn't lie down and they wouldn't assimilate. So many peoples have been annihilated through genocide, persecutions and the fact that they were just gobbled up by a superior culture. In ancient times, most peoples religion was Polytheistic, ie they believed that there were many gods and deities. There were bigger gods and smaller gods. It was usual to honour local gods, even if they were not your god, because you wouldn't like a gods wrath upon you. These superstitions were common. The Jews were monotheistic, and channeled their superstition away from all deities except one. Naturally, those whose god didn't get respect were a little miffed
The Jews kept their one god through all adversity, and that kept them from being assimilated into greater cultures, such as the Egyptian, Persian and Roman. After the Jews were cast out of Palestine and Judea, they became strangers everywhere they went. And nobody likes strangers, right?
The main difference between the Jews and other persecuted minorities through the ages, is that the Jews are still around. They have a sense of their "Jewishness". Weaker cultures have just succumbed to the pressure.

PS. I find the notion of a Jewish "race" utterly racist and despicable. As far as I'm concerned, The only race that matters is the human race.

What you said about polytheistic and monotheistic religions and their effects on the Jews is very incorrect. The people who believed in polytheistic religion fought with each other as much as anyone else. And don't forget the attrocities that Jews commited against Christians. In Greece they 220,000, and in Cyprus 240,000 Christians were tortured and killed by Jews because of their religion. Is that what their religion taught? No. Is that a genetic trait? No.
Point being, people are people, and people do horrible things to each other. Polythiestic or monothiestic, it doesn't matter, people still stink just as bad.

As I said, I think that the main reason for their persecution was because of memory (no matter how distorted) of bad things they had done in the past, and because rather than having a country, they lived in societies in other countries which caused mistrusted.
Is it rational to hate or distrust a person because they happen to be a Jew? Not at all. Does that mean that he/she is any different than anyone else? (except our sexy English noses ) No.
You have to judge people as individuals, but people don't do that. The human mind categorizes people and there is not much that can be done about it, lol.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

to many people ones heritage is extremely important

And rightly so, but the heritage of my religion and the heritage of my ethnicity are two things I believe are very seperate.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I mean, really, 3/4 Prussian and a Catholic? I might be lynched!

That answer your question? :P

No

[Vuk]

And rightly so, but the heritage of my religion and the heritage of my ethnicity are two things I believe are very seperate.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I mean, really, 3/4 Prussian and a Catholic? I might be lynched!

No

I know that they are seperate things, and in fact, that was one of my main points. If you re-read my first post you will see that.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I know that they are seperate things, and in fact, that was one of my main points. If you re-read my first post you will see that.

And I do not believe a Jewish race exists. I believe races exist that have a mainly Jewish religion, which is true enough, but I don't think Jews are a race, simply enough. I hold them in the same esteem as I hold any other religion.

[Vuk]

And I do not believe a Jewish race exists. I believe races exist that have a mainly Jewish religion, which is true enough, but I don't think Jews are a race, simply enough. I hold them in the same esteem as I hold any other religion.

Good for you, but there are many Jews who would disagree with you. Many Jews believe themselves as the sole decendants of Shem and the house of Judah. I myself am not sure I believe this as so many lines have gotten crossed along the way, but it is very sensitive and important to some. And to some, it is a source of hate. For that reason it is important to reconginize it.

[KrooK]

Jewish race does not exist and never existed. Jews are same race like Arabs.
Of course some of them believe that they are better race - but its just a racism.

[Spartan198]

The only race that matters is the human race.

Agreed. I mean,why do we have to divide the world into black,white,arab,etc.? We're all human. That's where I leave it.

To me,it doesn't matter what color you are,what Higher Power you believe in,etc.. If you treat me with respect,I'll treat you with respect. That's my mentality and it won't change.

Nice to have people that can discuss these things in an intelligent and unbiased manner.

[Vuk]

Agreed. I mean,why do we have to divide the world into black,white,arab,etc.? We're all human. That's where I leave it.

To me,it doesn't matter what color you are,what Higher Power you believe in,etc.. If you treat me with respect,I'll treat you with respect. That's my mentality and it won't change.

Nice to have people that can discuss these things in an intelligent and unbiased manner.

I too am glad that people can discuss things in an intelligent and unbiased manner, but may I ask you, what is wrong with acknowledging peoples' differences?
All I gotta do is look in a mirror to see that I am different from many other people. This to me is a source of my pride and individuality, not shame. I respect people from other races just as much as I'd respect someone who looked just like me, but I am not ashamed of my differences so much that I have to deny them.
Really, think about what you are saying, why should a black guy be ashamed of his race and who he is so much that he has to deny that he has a different race. How does that make him feel?
Though you may not be thinking of it that way, it is simply an easy way to get out of acknowledging and therefore respecting other's differences. You surely cannot respect them if you do not acknowledge them.

Vuk

[rajpoot]

All I gotta do is look in a mirror to see that I am different from many other people. This to me is a source of my pride and individuality, not shame. I respect people from other races just as much as I'd respect someone who looked just like me, but I am not ashamed of my differences so much that I have to deny them.
Really, think about what you are saying, why should a black guy be ashamed of his race and who he is so much that he has to deny that he has a different race. How does that make him feel?
Vuk

Perhaps I misunderstand you, but otherwise, no one should be proud not of his colour, or race, not even if he has a very handsome face. nor should one be ashamed of it. It should not be a factor in anything. If one has to be proud it should be for what he has done in his life, and his deeds.

Far as discrimination is concerned, even talking about a race of people specifically is discrimination........I mean it's like considering them different from others.

That is one reason reservations for minorities are incorrect......when you make reservations, you do it to aid that class, but you are also putting them apart from others......

Edit : What movie was it?

[TosaInu]

Hello asj_india,

..Perhaps I misunderstand you, but otherwise, no one should be proud..

It's the degree I think? Proud as in happy with/content being a good/harmless thing, and thanks to the powers that be I'm not .., as that is so inferior, being a bad thing.

One can enjoy pasta without thinking milk is disgusting?

Edit : What movie was it?

Sorry, I don't know. I think I was zapping the television and saw part of the movie. I only recall another part where he was older and in some sort of Hitler Jugend camp. It became difficult to keep the blend in act up there.

[Vuk]

Perhaps I misunderstand you, but otherwise, no one should be proud not of his colour, or race, not even if he has a very handsome face. nor should one be ashamed of it. It should not be a factor in anything. If one has to be proud it should be for what he has done in his life, and his deeds.

Far as discrimination is concerned, even talking about a race of people specifically is discrimination........I mean it's like considering them different from others.

That is one reason reservations for minorities are incorrect......when you make reservations, you do it to aid that class, but you are also putting them apart from others......

Edit : What movie was it?

People should be proud of what and who they are, and there is nothing wrong with that. It is really quite hard (if not impossible) to view something in complete neutrality, humans just don't do that. They always like to put a degree tag on something (and there is not necessarily anything wrong with this). For at least most people they are either proud/"satisfied" with themselves, or in some way feel shame and reproach.
There is a different between "proud" and "hotty" you see. Being proud like all other things can be done in a bad way, but does not have to be.
And is there something wrong with discrimination? Most people don't think about it, but they discriminate all the time. If we didn't, we couldn't live. What gives things meaning is how we think of them in relation to other things, ie how different we percieve them. I like red or black hair on girls more than blonde or brunette, so what? That is discrimination, does it hurt the girls? No. I can like and respect blonde and brunette girls just as much as girls with black or red hair. (In fact, first real GF had blonde hair)
Discrimination is natural and not bad at all. What can be bad is the choices you make based on your discrimination.
To give one more cheesy example:
I see a blonde girl, I notice that she is different from the girl beside her with red hair.
No think, have I done anything wrong? Have I hurt her? No, but I did discriminate.
Now suppose that I go up to her start telling her blonde jokes and make her cry. What that I did was wrong? It was the choices that I made based on discrimination, NOT discrimination.
My discrimination did not hurt her or lower my opinion of her at all.
To kinda close a lengthy arguement, which do you prefer, Pepsi or Coke?
(Yes, that is a trick question)

A rather unfortunate translation-error, 'shoah' means 'disaster' in Hebrew. And he did say that, shoah, but the media doesn't seem very interested in correcting this error.

I do not agree with how the Israeli government is handling the situation OR with the what the Palestinians have been doing. Coming from an isolated stand point and at the risk of offending someone, it all seems pretty barbaric.

Just want to let you know that the State of Isreal is not representive of Jews. There are ten times the number of Jews in NYC than in Isreal, and many Jews do not agree with Zionism.
(I myself agree with some aspects, but not others)
Point being that "Jews" as an entity cannot be judged by the desicions that a select few in the National Israeli government make.

It is a fact that he was probably a quarter Jewish, through his grandmother. He had to have known it too - I wonder what made men like Reinhard Heydrich (half Jewish, to my knowledge) do things that they did to people of their own religion?

It's an interesting discussion, to be sure.

Many (as in about 3/4) of Hitler's top aids and government officials were Jewish. This could be because they wanted to get a high place in the government and conceal their identity, to try and counter some of the wrong that the Nazis were doing. Unfortunately this theory cannot apply to all as some were directly responsible for the horrors done to other Jews.

I have read countless theories about this in a class last year, and all I can say is that I have no idea in hell. :P
Let me just say this though, to attribute it to the entity "Jews" would be very inaccurate and ignorant. You have people of all races, nationalities, and religions who have done good and bad. To attribute the actions of a group of evil people to a race/religion/etc wide "conspiracy" is absurd. You can just as easily say that all whites are bad because a lot (most) of Nazis were white. We know that there were good whites inside Germany and certainly in allied countries who were shocked at what was done, and we also know the same about Jews.
Individuals make their own choices, and cause some whites and jews decided to murder jews means only that THOSE white and jews were wrong/evil/whatever you wish to call it. In fact, if the Jews (like Hitler) responsible you the attrocities really believed what they said about Jews (which isn't far fetched as much of the German public did), they may have "renounced" their identity as Jews and turned on their own people. That may be a little far fetched, but it is just a theory. :P
Theories can go on and on about it, whatever though, I think it is more the work of a phycologist than a Historian.

[Tristuskhan]

Many (as in about 3/4) of Hitler's top aids and government officials were Jewish.

Sources please...

[Vuk]

Sources please...

I have read that in more than one book, though I cannot provide a source of the top of my head. I also remember reading that his top three were (whether they new it or not) Jewish.
Guess we will never know if any of them knew they were Jewish, but my guess would be "no".

[Ramses II CP]

Perhaps I misunderstand you, but otherwise, no one should be proud not of his colour, or race, not even if he has a very handsome face. nor should one be ashamed of it. It should not be a factor in anything. If one has to be proud it should be for what he has done in his life, and his deeds.

...

I think this strikes to the heart of the issue here, the fact that identifying oneself as a particular race, even if it's in a positive light, is ultimately detrimental to the cause of ending racism. Why do 'White Power' and 'Black Power' have such radically different connotations; why might one cause a liberal to cringe while the other makes him raise his fist in sympathy? It isn't an essential, actual difference between the physical makeup of two groups of people, it's a cultural and economic difference, a power differential which allows simple minds to crudely extend the analogy of the powerless along the lines of supposed visible differences.

Race identity is, in every substantive quality, nonsense. The term 'race' is so generic, so broadly applicable that any attempt to examine it in details drives off all possible import or meaning. Every living human can be traced, through their mitochondria, to a single female ancestor (Estimates of how far back this requires us to go are usually in excess of 300,000 years, if you're curious). The differences between the most extreme of isolated populations is still nowhere near enough to prevent interbreeding, and such interbreeding will, within three or four generations in a single direction, produce offspring indistinguishable from the 'race' into which an individual might choose to marry. That's not a theory, it's a frequently demonstrated fact.

Race identity is the phrenology of the 20th (And perhaps 21st) century. Don't get caught up in it.

[Fragony]

Only seems to strike it, because if I have to judge only on my own deeds then why exactly should I have any respect for my father, happens to be the guy that gave my mother vital input but it wasn't me that did it. Such is the same with the culture of the country where I live.

[Ramses II CP]

What does racial identity have to do with respect for your parents?

[Spartan198]

I too am glad that people can discuss things in an intelligent and unbiased manner, but may I ask you, what is wrong with acknowledging peoples' differences?
All I gotta do is look in a mirror to see that I am different from many other people. This to me is a source of my pride and individuality, not shame. I respect people from other races just as much as I'd respect someone who looked just like me, but I am not ashamed of my differences so much that I have to deny them.
Really, think about what you are saying, why should a black guy be ashamed of his race and who he is so much that he has to deny that he has a different race. How does that make him feel?
Though you may not be thinking of it that way, it is simply an easy way to get out of acknowledging and therefore respecting other's differences. You surely cannot respect them if you do not acknowledge them.

Vuk

You know,I didn't think about it like that,but you're exactly right. Even though we're all of the same species,no two people are exactly alike in every way. Even twins,triplets,etc.,spawned from the same embryo (I hope I worded that correctly) can have vastly different personalities and principles. Same thing can be said about pets,for example. Two cats can be of the same breed and appearance,yet have their own individual personalities,just like humans.
And,of course,no one should have to feel ashamed of what race they are. I, like you,am an individual as well,and I applaude any and everyone for showing pride in who and what they are,so long as it's not done in a harmful manner toward others.

Words to ponder over,Vuk.

[Noncommunist]

Agreed. I mean,why do we have to divide the world into black,white,arab,etc.? We're all human. That's where I leave it.

Even though we do often discriminate based on skin color, it's not like we were definitely going to do so as we don't discriminate based on whether someone's earlobes are attached or unattached and rarely on eye color. We just have to make skin color as insignificant as eye color.

[Vuk]

Even though we do often discriminate based on skin color, it's not like we were definitely going to do so as we don't discriminate based on whether someone's earlobes are attached or unattached and rarely on eye color. We just have to make skin color as insignificant as eye color.

Is it anymore so? Look at the different white people and all their differences. The ancient Germans hated the Romans, so they called them short and dark haired, and the ancient Romans made fun of the Germans for being tall and blonde/red haired.
When people hate people, they use everything they can to justify it, including any physical differences.
When I went to camp as a kid, I used to be made fun of cause I was tall...by the same people who made fun of my friend for being short.
It doesn't have to do with acknowledging differences, but with justifying your hate with them.
I acknowledge the difference between me and my GF (who I probably think more highly of than anyone I know). I am tall and have dark hair and skin, she is VERY short and has red hair and pale skin. (and I think she is the most beautiful girl in the world)

You know when bullies pretend that they do not see a kid they do not like, and won't talk to him, and ignore him? That is what you are doing to people of another race when you do not acknowledge their race - image how they feel.

Vuk

[TinCow]

We just have to make skin color as insignificant as eye color.

And yet the color of your eyes was an important factor in determining whether you were part of the Nazi's superior 'Aryan' race. There is no physical feature on the human body which is exempt from discrimination. We discriminate against other people for reasons entirely separate from physical appearance. The appearance simply becomes a convenient method of differentiating the 'good' from the 'bad.' If there is no obvious physical feature to use, like skin color, less significant aspects then become the target of derision.

[TosaInu]

And yet the color of your eyes was an important factor in determining whether you were part of the Nazi's superior 'Aryan' race.

Reminds me of a movie I think to have seen years ago.

It was about a Jewish boy in Nazi Germany and he was trying to blend in to survive.

There was a scene with a teacher in the class and he was talking about the anatomical differences, skull measurements, what made a real Arier and that he would immediately see who wasn't one. Then he slowly walked down the class and stopped at our boy: "Now look at him'. ... "While he doesn't have blue eyes, he's a real Arier, he's brown eyes like our Fuhrer'.

[Vuk]

Reminds me of a movie I think to have seen years ago.

It was about a Jewish boy in Nazi Germany and he was trying to blend in to survive.

There was a scene with a teacher in the class and he was talking about the anatomical differences, skull measurements, what made a real Arier and that he would immediately see who wasn't one. Then he slowly walked down the class and stopped at our boy: "Now look at him'. ... "While he doesn't have blue eyes, he's a real Arier, he's brown eyes like our Fuhrer'.

LOL! And the funny thing about it is, that the "Fuhrer" was so wrong about himself and his origins. The Germans and white people were not desendants of Aryans at all, and Hitler himself may very well have been Jewish. :P I wonder what he would have done if he woke up one morning and found that out. "ARRGHH! I am an evil Jew trying to ruin your country and people! A stab in the back! Lock me in a concentration camp and burn me!!"
lol, fun being poked here was at the short guy with the mustache, not supposed to cheapen or make fun of what the Jews went through in WWII. :P


EDIT: I learned where the word "Fuhrer" comes from in my german class today. The german verb "to lead" is "Fuhren". It was turned into a noun and became "Fuhrer". lol

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

LOL! And the funny thing about it is, that the "Fuhrer" was so wrong about himself and his origins. The Germans and white people were not desendants of Aryans at all, and Hitler himself may very well have been Jewish. :P

It is a fact that he was probably a quarter Jewish, through his grandmother. He had to have known it too - I wonder what made men like Reinhard Heydrich (half Jewish, to my knowledge) do things that they did to people of their own religion?

It's an interesting discussion, to be sure.

[Caius]

It was about a Jewish boy in Nazi Germany and he was trying to blend in to survive.

There was a scene with a teacher in the class and he was talking about the anatomical differences, skull measurements, what made a real Arier and that he would immediately see who wasn't one. Then he slowly walked down the class and stopped at our boy: "Now look at him'. ... "While he doesn't have blue eyes, he's a real Arier, he's brown eyes like our Fuhrer'

Europe Europe is the movie, right?

I think that person was still alive, at the end.

[Mangudai]

I can partially explain how the money-grubbing stereotype arose. My main source is James Mitchner books.

In most of Europe Jews were not permitted to own land, so they were not employed at farming like 90% of the population. Usually most lucrative commodities markets (salt, beer, etc) were monopolized by a king or local noble, so they were excluded from those. Anti-semetic nobles and bishops often forbade them from practicing other trades as well. Most Jews in Europe were poor ghetto dwellers. Somehow they maintained their cohesion and tradition, and those few who prospered economically had to find innovative ways to do it.

For most of the middle ages the Catholic church was opposed to usury. On occasion they banned usury altogether, but the need for a credit system was strong enough that they adopted a work around. Bishops decided that it was sinful (read illegal) for a Christian to charge interest on another christian. But, Jewish people were exempted from these statutes.

[Spartan198]

Even though we do often discriminate based on skin color, it's not like we were definitely going to do so as we don't discriminate based on whether someone's earlobes are attached or unattached and rarely on eye color. We just have to make skin color as insignificant as eye color.

In my view,skin color already is as insignificant as eye color,or hair color (though I do have a certain fondness for redheads in particular,but that's not exactly a discriminatory thing...),religion,and so forth.

[Tribesman]

I'm not sure what the original reason for this law is, since it's been a long time since I attended Temple.

There is a sound basis for the old law , even if the husband is Jewish it doesn't guarantee that he is the father of the child .
However the process of giving birth is a pretty good indication of who the mother of the child is

[KrooK]

As Ludwik Gumplowicz wrote into XIX century
there is no clear race nowadays. Races mixed themselves - Jews could be good example, same like Poles, Russians, French and Britons.

[carbz]

race is a political concept and battleground more than anything, but as a concept is of no less relevance because of that.

Which brings us back to why jews were persecuted, they have long viewed themselves as "the chosen" and aggressively defended their own, which pisses people off.