European Union

[Ice]

Why do you say it is in our best interests? The individual countries of Europe are already powerful, especially Germany and France.

There is strength in numbers, unless you enjoy being a patsy under NATO.

A United Europe is the whole reason the sovereignty argument comes up. A single-country EU takes away the sovereignty of it's components - I do not want Germany to become a state of the EU, albiet the most powerful one.

Hence my comment of an EU with too much power.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

There is strength in numbers, unless you enjoy being a patsy under NATO.

Yes, but I'd prefer being a little less strong than losing my sovereignty. I mean, Germany's already the most powerful country in the EU, so why would I complain otherwise?

Also, Germany is the second or third strongest nation in NATO, definitely behind America, and possibly behind Britain. NATO also does not threaten our sovereignty.

[Caerfanan]

Yes, but I'd prefer being a little less strong than losing my sovereignty. I mean, Germany's already the most powerful country in the EU, so why would I complain otherwise?

And then, some guy from Bavaria should definitely start to think that people from the East Part of Germany are Siphoning their Money.... And that Germany takes its sovereignty.

But wait a moment, those from Fustenfeldbruck.. Aren't they taking money (and sovereignty) from Munich?

If I go back to my country, I really think that a long time ago, some "conservative, what for anyway people" were saying, in several Regions, that "France" was abusing their sovereignty, etc, etc....

So when speaking of "nation" you should speak in temrms of history as well. As you are German and I French, what about Alsace/Elsatz. It's been german, french, german...

You are now "protecting" some limits that were rejected before.

My opinion on that subject is that having corrupted chiefs is bad, but does not mean that we don't need one. And that to avoid to have people grumbling that some bureaucrat from the "region capital/country capital/continent capital" shouldn't decide for them, we should have good local "governments": say , a city responsible for it's roads, a region for its airport, etc, etc... Maybe with some "solidarity" between people. So as to avoid to have poor regions / Rich regions having arguments. (think of belgium)

So a strong European Union is something we need. An to our american friends, please: why being wary of a strong Europe?

[ajaxfetish]

An to our american friends, please: why being wary of a strong Europe?

I think most of those American's expressing doubt are also wary of a strong America, in the sense of a strong federal government. The idea is that the more local a government is, the more accurately it follows the will of its members (considering the deficiencies of some local governments, that may be debatable, but a local government would certainly be easier to change or overthrow if its citizens got sufficiently riled up), so governments higher in the hierarchy should be as comparatively weak as is reasonably possible.

Ajax

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

And then, some guy from Bavaria should definitely start to think that people from the East Part of Germany are Siphoning their Money.... And that Germany takes its sovereignty.

Eastern Germany is a drain on the West, but, nonetheless, they are German, and deserve aid.

There is a small faction that thinks Bavaria deserves sovereignty, but Bavarians are German. They have had the opportunity to split, and haven't. That example doesn't ring.

So when speaking of "nation" you should speak in temrms of history as well. As you are German and I French, what about Alsace/Elsatz. It's been german, french, german...

You want my frank answer? It's been German for longer. However, I believe that the populace of that region should be given a referendum and the right to choose between Germany, France, and being an autonomous state, if they so desire.

You are now "protecting" some limits that were rejected before.

How?

Maybe with some "solidarity" between people. So as to avoid to have poor regions / Rich regions having arguments. (think of belgium)

That's how it's always worked. It is my personal belief that everyone cannot be rich or equal in terms of money, land, etc. We don't need to be united - all we'll achieve then is strong seperatist factions, like those that already exist in Spain, Kosovo, and Quebec.

Europe, in the last fifty years, has been stable. This has preserved our cultural identities, our sovereignty as a nation, our right to choose our own laws, and our right to keep our own money if we so choose.

The EU has no right to do this for us, anymore than the UN has the right to rule the world.

Unity is not necessarily the best thing.

We do not need a strong European Union - we need, at most, a European discussion forum, and European cooperation - not unity.

[Ignoramus]

The EU will never work, for the simple fact that Europe is one of the most diverse continents in terms of culture, language, and tradition. What's more, the EU is based on a common "European idea". There is no common European idea. Europeans don't think of themselves as Europeans, they think of themselves as British, Germans, Croatians, Russians etc.

[InsaneApache]

@ Upxl The arguments you put forward do not justify the rush to turn Europe into a country. Indeed they only reinforce my position that Europe should be a trading bloc no more. You're just arguing against yourself.

As for the 'people' being too stupid to decide they're own fate, you don't happen to be left wing do you?