Shields?

[Rhyfelwyr]

I'm guessing these weren't used by European armies during the timeframe, and would be limited to natives in the colonial areas. But considering bullets would go straight thruogh these shields, is there any point in creating a seperate shield stat?

Since we won't be pitching native armies against each other, it would seem to be a bit of a worthless stat.

[Raz]

Bayonet Charge?

Anyway, if CA want this thing to be moddable, they'd add an extra shield stat. Even if it's just a switch in a text file somewhere, like shield_stat_active: True/False.

[Furious Mental]

Obviously there should be a shield stat. Of course it is not a worthless number. You say we won't be pitching native armies against each other. I certainly hope you are totally wrong, because all colonial armies relied on colonial vassals and auxiliaries. In any case, people are certain to want to mod the game so that they can play as native factions. But leaving all that aside, European armies used bayonets and sabres and a shield is as good a defence against them as it is against any other melee weapon.

[pevergreen]

I dont see a reason not to include them, therefore i hope they are included.

[rajpoot]

Since we won't be pitching native armies against each other,

???!!!! When did they say that?? Atleast a few of the Native factions, specially ones like the Mugals, are supposed to be playable/unlockable are they not?

And even if what you say is right (God forbid) still there will be native mercenaries who'll be using shields anyway.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well the 10 playable factions are all colonial powers.

I forgot about the mercenaries and (hopefully) regionally recruited units though, good point.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Well the 10 playable factions so far are all colonial powers.

Fixed that for you.

[Csargo]

EMFM is right those are the only factions confirmed at this point I'm sure that's going to change though.

On the note of shields they'll probably be included, or at least I would hope so.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I though the Jacobite rebellions would be in Empire? That just wouldn't be the same without a targe and broadsword armed unit.

[Intrepid Sidekick]

Shields will of course be factored in to Empire's combat system.
We still have melee combat and we need to make them useful in those cases where units are meleeing with each other.
Of course they wont be useful in stopping bullets or cannon shot.

Keep your eyes open for the next FAQ at TotalWar.com for more info.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Keep your eyes open for the next FAQ at TotalWar.com for more info.

Great! I've been looking forward to some info on land battles...

[Mr Frost]

...
Of course they wont be useful in stopping bullets or cannon shot...

Depends on the shield and gun . The Comanche shield was made origonally from many layers of grass in a leather casing , but when they encountered books they discovered paper was far superior for making these .
Europeans were baffled by the presumably illiterate Comanche love for books , until they found out why they wanted them .

These shields were quite thick and contained so many layers of paper {remember , paper used then was generally much stronger and better quality than the very cheap stuff most use today} that they could stop some pistol bullets {.36 Colt Navy for example} !
Rifles would penetrate , but even there it could sometimes take enough energy from the bullet to allow the Comanche to survive .

Might not be worth coding {an added complexity that would only have minimal use} but worth noting if for no other reason than the coolness factor .

Of course , if it is easy to code somehow {a chance of stopping a bullet that hits it based on how powerful the bullet} then it would be nice to have
Nothing wrong with a little optimism .

[rajpoot]

Depends on the shield and gun . The Comanche shield was made origonally from many layers of grass in a leather casing , but when they encountered books they discovered paper was far superior for making these .
Europeans were baffled by the presumably illiterate Comanche love for books , until they found out why they wanted them .

I sure wish we could have seen their faces when they discovered this fact.

But really, nice interesting bit of info this.
What'll be the caliber of the muskets which will be using in the era?

[Matt_Lane]

What'll be the caliber of the muskets which will be using in the era?

The British Brown Bess musket was 0.75" caliber, firing a one once lead ball. After 1717 the standard French Muskets caliber was 0.69". British carbines and Baker Rifles were 0.625" caliber so as to reduce weight whilst Continental Army long rifles were only 0.45" as this required only a third of the powder used by a large musket.

[Freedom Onanist]

These shields were quite thick and contained so many layers of paper {remember , paper used then was generally much stronger and better quality than the very cheap stuff most use today} that they could stop some pistol bullets {.36 Colt Navy for example} !
Rifles would penetrate , but even there it could sometimes take enough energy from the bullet to allow the Comanche to survive .

Can you substantiate any of this?

1 Better paper - thicker does not mean it has a higher tensile strength

2 The paper stopping .36 bullet. Of course at a meaningful range for a pistol. Were these shield about the width of a decent modern telephone directory?

Be interested to see the evidence for this.

Apart from that, shield should definitely be in for the appropriate units. Their usefulness should be closely examined though.

[Intrepid Sidekick]

The greatest problem for shields trying to stop bullets, in a massed battle, is being able to tell where the enemy are going to shoot you and covering the appropriate part of your body before the bullet hits.
There's a small possibility that if you have the shield in the right place at the right time you wont get hurt.
As said before shields will be of much more help against arrows and melee attacks. They tend to be useless if you're trying to use a musket.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well the guns in M2TW pierce shields, so I suppose they should in ETW as well.

So are we going to be seeing a lot of native troops in ETW? That would be nice, I had always imagined European armies being dominant.

[DefenderofFuture]

Definitely they should be included. The sheer amount of native-on-native action (hot) of the period alone would make modeling it worth it. Native vs. native battles aside, I can't see a shield being completely useless against musket fire. Muskets are still low enough velocity that penetration isn't guaranteed, I would think. I would like to see there be a percentage that a bullet ignores a shield, not a guaranteed ignore. It should be a HIGH percentage, but not 100%.

I did hear something about the Mughal Empire being playable. If so, I am incredibly excited. If not, I'll just hack them into playability anyways.

[Matt_Lane]

I can't see a shield being completely useless against musket fire. Muskets are still low enough velocity that penetration isn't guaranteed,

Come off it, if muskets or carbines could penetrate cavalry Cuirass at a reasonable range I cant see a Highlander Targe offering much protection against firearms and hide shields are going to fare even worse.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I wouldn't think a .750 calibre lead ball leaving the barrel at roughly 1000fps will be much troubled by a shield at typical ranges.

[ThePianist]

There would be a point in creating a shield stat, because some units had shield/armor even in the 18th/19th century. The cuirassier, used by French, Austrians and Prussians:
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles...uirassier.html


And the Austrian version only wore the front plate of the armor, so that is almost like Total War stats carried out in real life (armor stats only apply to the front, though in RTW there is the added direction of the shield-carrying side).

[Intrepid Sidekick]

As in previous TW games
Shields and armour are treated seperately.
The effectiveness of Shields and armour depends on what they are being hit by. And where from.

[geala]

The ability to penetrate cuirasses and shields is always a matter of the involved material of the defense and the energy, shape and consistence of the bullet.

The mostly used projectile was a round soft lead ball which lost energy very soon and had in general bad penetration ability even when shot from muskets (compared to modern conical bullets, both full metall jacket or the partly mantled variants). At about 50 metres the musket bullets were not able to penetrate the armour of a cuirassier.

I'm not at all a specialist for American history (you see that in my poor literature available) but that low velocity musket balls could be deflected by leather shields of the American Indians, made of strong buffalo hide and stuffed with soft material, is f.e. stated in Osprey MMA Nr. 163 "The American Plains Indians" p. 23 (without a reference to an original source).

So the statement of Mr Frost is totally believable given the fact that he refers to a .36 black powder revolver with ball munition and very low energy (compared to modern handgun bullets).

[Raz]

Ahh, the cuirasser, still, remember that they'd be engaged in melee most of the time during battle, someone would probably fire a musket at point blank range into their face when engaged, unless he was silly enough to try and stab his chest with a bayonet - it's not like they'd stay 50m away from the enemy saying "Haha! I am invincible!" Only to have their horse shot from underneath them.

Also, I'm guessing if the musket was fire downhill aiming to an opponent uphill, the amount of energy lost would be quite significant back in those times, right?

[TosaInu]

I only hear the bell: but there even were Russian sappers (?) in WW2 wearing something like a steel cuirasses. I don't know whether it was supposed to make them bulletproof, but it probably did give them some protection.

Tokugawa Ieyasu (16th and 17th centrury Japanese warlord) was saved more than once from bullets thanks to his armour.

Bulletproof cuirasses are made, they were tested by firing balls on it.

A modern test.

1. 24 mm wooden board (yes, there's wood and wood).
2. 48 mm wooden board.
3. 1 mm iron plate (yes, there's iron and iron).
4. 2 mm iron plate.

9mm caliber black powder arquebus (grains of charge not listed).

30 meters, four targets, four shots: each was pierced cleanly.
50 meters 1 and 3 pierced cleanly, 48 mm board entered for three-quarters and bullet entered the 2 mm iron plate, but did not pierce it.
   Turnbull The Samurai Sourcebook.

[Raz]

Hmm, interesting Tosa.

[geala]

The cuirassiers (or cavalry in general in this era) did not face quick firing rifles. In old manuals for cavalry tactics one advice was always to draw the fire with a small part of the squadrons/unit and than attack after the volley. Of course this was theory and often not possible in reality.

Cavalry charges often stopped shortly out of reach of the muskets for some time before the troopers got enough courage to ride into the dead zone. In this time they could try to lure the infantry into shooting an ineffective volley. Cuirassiers had more latitude in this, I think.

[Brave]

We must be able to mod the game! Therefore we need shields stats!