Improving Archers

[seireikhaan]

Okay, so I'm sure that a lot of people have noticed that in MTW, regular arrows are simply not effective enough. A thought offered by the wise Caravel-Sama a while back got me started on this, so much credit must certainly go to him. Anyways, I did a little home tinkering with Gnome editor on the projectilestats, and I think I've made some progress on solving the issue, in my opinion. In the regular files, regular shortbows/mounted longbows have a lethality of .69 on the editor. Same with Longbows. During my tinkering, I eventually upped the lethality of arrows of all bows, including longbows, to .75. The reason for upping the longbows, despite that they don't especially need it badly, is that it seems rather ridiculous, again in my opinion, for regular bows to be more lethal than longbows. During battles, I've now been finding that even vanilla archers are now quite viable units, on the defensive anyways, and are quite capable of tearing apart unarmored units given a little time.

Another thing that I changed, which I feel may have helped, is that I made sure that every bow wielding unit was set to have a preferred number of ranks at three. The idea being that archers, at least on the defensive, will then get more arrows off at better accuracy, thus improving their viability. Two ranks would seem to be better on the surface, but the wide range of the units proved a tad problematic at times for the AI, as the unit lost considerable side to side mobility, had problems with logistical movement on the battlefield, and were rather easy targets for cavalry, being so wide and, well, easy to hit. This also, of course, offers considerable aid to factions which use a lot of archers, especially the Turks. The Turks can now be truly dangerous with their vast array of archery units, and are now hardly pushovers in combat. Of course, heavily armored units still resist arrow fire pretty well, because I did not change the armor piercing capablities, so that a fairly strong semblance to realism can be maintained. Anyways, I felt I would share my thoughts on this, as I feel that it makes for a more balanced game and one where archer is quite viable as a means of decimating enemy troops, especially in the early period.

[Ravencroft]

Wow...

I just got an idea. Why not balance the xbows/arbs too?

[seireikhaan]

Well, in what way do you mean? I feel that xbows and arbs are plenty lethal on their own as is, but decreasing it much might render them obsolete given their long reload times and the fact that they don't really shoot over other troops very well like archers. Although I'm certainly open to conversation on the subject, I'm just not quite certain where its headed.

[Ravencroft]

Well, I meant improving the xbows/arbs effectiveness without making them too powerful. I just don't know what specifically it is.

On a side note, how do you modify the "shoot poorly in bad weather" thing? I have Gnome editor.

[seireikhaan]

Hmm...Honestly, I've never bothered to tinker with that particular stat, because I felt it would be rather ahistorical to make archers capable of shooting just as well in a downpour as they would on a clear day. Probably somewhere in the projectilestats, aways down would be my guess. Bear in mind, I'm no expert modder, I just do a few small things here and there to, in my opinion, either improve gameplay, balance, or realism.

EDIT: Also, I personally think that x-bows and arbs are plenty effective, given their range and armor piercing capablities, so long as they be protected, of course.

[Roark]

During my tinkering, I eventually upped the lethality of arrows of all bows, including longbows, to .75. The reason for upping the longbows, despite that they don't especially need it badly, is that it seems rather ridiculous, again in my opinion, for regular bows to be more lethal than longbows.

Hang on...

There is a good reason you would find it "ridiculous" for shortbows to be more lethal than longbows... (eg: the fact that the latter is far superior to the former)

...but you have no problem with them having the same lethality?

I'm missing something here... something... nah, it's gone.

[Raz]

I believe that longbow's bodkin arrowheads were so narrow, that they just didn't cause the same wounds as the broadhead arrows of most of the other archers and bowmen.

Also, arbs should have a higher lethality, as don't they have a longer reload time than normal xbows? Bah, it's been a while since I've opened up projectile_stats on original MTW.

I'm not too sure, but the shoot poorly stat is a yes/no true/false kinda thing in the proj. stats. Somewhere after the reload times but before the sound effects and models column. Again, vague on the details... I'd check but I'm a tad lazy.

[caravel]

You'll be wanting to have a look at this thread in the Pocket Mod forum, kamikhaan. https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=85444

[Brandy Blue]

I believe that longbow's bodkin arrowheads were so narrow, that they just didn't cause the same wounds as the broadhead arrows of most of the other archers and bowmen.

I think that longbows actually used two kinds of arrows. Flight arrows were provided with a small head so they could fly further. I assume that is the "bodkin arrowhead" you refer to. Sheaf arrows, however, were used at close range, had broadheads, and were more deadly.

In my opinion, the longbow should be more deadly than regular bows at close range, because they would all use broadhead arrows, but the longbow would have a greater pull. At longer ranges, the longbow would lose effectiveness, but the regular bows would not have the range to shoot that far anyway. I don't think the game would allow you to give the longbow variable levels of deadliness depending on range, so it is a reasonable compromise to give the longbow an "average" level of deadliness. Unrealistically low deadliness at close ranges makes up for unrealistically high deadliness at long range.

One other factor to keep in mind is that a deep wound is often more dangerous than a shallow but wider one. A bodkin head that penetrates deeper would not necessarily be less deadly.

That said, I'm just a causal reader of history, not even a serious amateur. Also, I have rarely used bows of any type. The opinion of a real expert would be nice.

[Ironsword]

Don't want to go too off topic, but I think the bodkin arrow was the armour piercing round of its day. ie. effective even against plate. But yes, longbowmen, like other archers often used various arrow heads.

They were only really replaced by guns because it took so long to train the shoulder and arm muscles of the archers. It was much quicker and cheaper to give any old Charlie a point and shoot weapon like the handgun.

In MTW, longbows are really fast at firing. Does anyone have the times between volleys for the various missile troops?

[Aldgilles]

They were only really replaced by guns because it took so long to train the shoulder and arm muscles of the archers. It was much quicker and cheaper to give any old Charlie a point and shoot weapon like the handgun.

If you look ar it that way you should have longer training times for archers (two years for vanilla, three years for longbows maybe?) and just one year for the 'point & shoot' weapons. That way it is reasonable that bows and longbows are better than Xbows...(on a side note: firearms only became better than indian bows in America when repeater weapons were invented, like revolvers and winchesters)

[Ravencroft]

Yeah, in fact, bowling was apparently banned in medieval England because it prevented the men from longbow practice! (That's how the English were dedicated to longbows.)

[Kenshin the vega bound]

Archers dont need inproving. I think they are fine as they are. I find them very usefull in defensive battles.

Also hybrid archers are meant to be a lot better than bog standard archers.

[caravel]

Hybrid archers are no better than standard ones because they fire exactly the same bow. Standard archers do need some small improvements, such as extra ammo and slightly improved lethality.

Basically MTW consists of three bow types. The standard bow, the mounted bow (used for horse archers which is a slighlty less accurate version of the standard bow) and the longbow. All foot archer units except the longbowmen are equipped with the standard bow and all horse archers with the mounted bow.

[Martok]

Hybrid archers are no better than standard ones because they fire exactly the same bow. Standard archers do need some small improvements, such as extra ammo and slightly improved lethality.

Agreed. Regular archers are a bit underpowered in vanilla MTW/VI, even against unarmored units. Not they're not still useful, but they should still be a little more effective than they currently are, especially considering their training cost.

[Ravencroft]

I gotta agree. Basically, I've found the Janissary Archers rather superfluous, as the Infantry had better melee sats and used exactly the same bow!

How did I fix this? Basically, I've overhauled the entire Janissary Corps. I gave the Bows the dreaded longbow(from the unit_prod file); gave the Inf better melee stats (actually more akin to CMAAs now) and the JHIs have much better stats. This is offset by their period limit (i.e. Late Period only).

Now maybe I should give the Bows more ammo as well.

[Heidrek]

Vanilla Archers are pretty weak unless you've got a nice hill to defend.

I've heard that in XL, Steppe Heavy Cavalry have an armour piercing missile attack - is this right? Do any other archers besides Longbows have an AP missile attack?

[seireikhaan]

All Mongol archery units have 'longbow' stats in XL. Really makes them insane to deal with if you end up caught in an open, flat battlefield bereft of trees.

[Ravencroft]

Now the Mongols ARE scary!

Maybe I should give the warriors a longbow.

I've given the Mongol HAs AP arrows MTLG now is AP, so some HA types have SBOW as their proj type.

[Heidrek]

All Mongol archery units have 'longbow' stats in XL. Really makes them insane to deal with if you end up caught in an open, flat battlefield bereft of trees.

Does this include Steppe Heavy Cavalry? So they have AP arrows and the same range as Arbalesters? Wow, that makes them a pretty damn scary unit when you consider they have a charge of 6 now as well.

[bondovic]

Hi, all!

I'm new to these forums, although I have been playing MTW almost since the beginning. I have done some textmodding also, meaning I've not added new units and pics, only changed stats.

One of the things that has been a concern of mine for a long time has been the missile units. The problem, according to me, having been that while they are good (or semi-good) as the enemy is not moving they really do not carry their weight in the army should the enemy quickly engage. I wanted to solve this somehow and came to the conclusion that a much increased lethality for all missile types combined with a drastic decrease in quantity of missiles per man was the way to go. This way you get about as many kills 'per quiver' (spelled correctly?) but in a lot less time.

I usually go with 5 missiles/quiver for bows/xbows/guns and 3 for javelins. In addition to this I give all HA units the short bow by default and up the stats of the 'MTLG'. This means that HA's use the same bow as foot archers, which seems, intuitively, plausible. The 'MTLG' can then be used to create a sort of 'elite' class of bowmen, wether on horseback or not. I, for example, use the modded MTLG for Hashishin, Sipahi of the Port, Janissary archers, Boyars and a few others. This is a matter of personal preference, ofc, as I simply feel that these units 'should' be way better than tier 1 riff raff missiles.

All in all this means that foot archers are very nasty defensive units even if the enemy charges without an initial period of skirmishing. HA units, on the other hand, are now way more useful on the offensive. Before these changes I found that the option of massing light cavalry was lost, since you basically risked nothing by letting the HA's come close enough and then chase them to the edge of the map. Now they can be worth the cost because they will do damage even from a couple of arrows.

It does change the way the game is played, especially in the east. The Turks will seem overpowered as a result. On this point I'm open to suggestions as how to balance it out, if there is need - I really have not played through enough campaigns to see a tendency in this matter.

Thoughts?

Regards!

[Puzz3D]

Well I'd improve the archers differently. I'd increase the number of arrows to 36 (2.5 minutes of shooting with 4 second reload), and then slightly increase the lethality to maybe 18% or possibly lower the armor modifier to maybe 0.9. Doing both might be too much. Giving the HA the SBOW is fine. The idea is to retain the need for the archers to be protected so as to preserve the combined arms gameplay.

[bondovic]

Well I'd improve the archers differently. I'd increase the number of arrows to 36 (2.5 minutes of shooting with 4 second reload), and then slightly increase the lethality to maybe 18% or possibly lower the armor modifier to maybe 0.9. Doing both might be too much. Giving the HA the SBOW is fine. The idea is to retain the need for the archers to be protected so as to preserve the combined arms gameplay.

Agreed, the combined arms gameplay is important. I do think, though, that these stats do no foul to it. Archers would still need cover as they are simply more powerful and not overpowered. HA's are different. It's now possible to 'mass' them and find some success that you simply could not find before, in that they now can cause problems for unprotected heavy cavalry. As was the case in actual history. 16xHA is still not a good idea, though, for the exact same reasons as before modding - the map is not endless, so it is still possible to chase the HA to the edge. Not to mention that that many HA's simply is beyond effective micromanagement.

I just see this as another element to the rock, paper, scissors - be prudent with protective missile units when going east or the HA's will eat your heavy cavalry. As with any counter - once you know what to do it's usually quite easy.

The foot archers, for their part, will not be able to march straight on to the enemy, unleash five volleys and safely withdraw. It's just that you have a little less time to react to skirmishers. If they're not protected - simply ride them down. As you do.

So. I don't believe this modding messes with the combined arms gameplay. It does mean, though, that archers and HA's are useful in more situations than they are under vanilla stats. And especially against heavy cavalry. But not to an extent where heavy infantry gets obsolete.

Cheers!

[Puzz3D]

The foot archers, for their part, will not be able to march straight on to the enemy, unleash five volleys and safely withdraw. It's just that you have a little less time to react to skirmishers. If they're not protected - simply ride them down. As you do.

You're only allowing 20 seconds to react.

So. I don't believe this modding messes with the combined arms gameplay. It does mean, though, that archers and HA's are useful in more situations than they are under vanilla stats. And especially against heavy cavalry. But not to an extent where heavy infantry gets obsolete.

Archers shouldn't be effective against heavy cavalry.

[Heidrek]

Archers are a little underwhelming at present, I grant you, but the fact is that no matter what their stats are, they present a tactical threat to your opponent - they can kill from a distance. If you cannot reply in kind, Archers, even vanilla ones will cause you significant losses to your units. Free kills are nothing to sneeze at.

The AI plays them annoyingly well as skirmishers and part of your strategy in constructing an army is always "How will I deal with missile troops?" which is exactly as it should be.

One thing that I don't like though is that the number of kills per volley you get seems to go down as the target unit gets thinned down. You'd think that a 60 man unit of archers firing as a 20 man infantry unit would do some serious damage, but more often than not it's a wasted volley or results in 1 kill.

Also it doesn't make sense to me that Archers get as fatiigued as regular troops through firing. I hate watching halkf or more of my men sitting there doing nothing while the others fire becuase they are fatigued. This too would increase their effectiveness.

What I would like is an alternative attack option for catapults and other siege weapons. An anti personell option that has an increased blast radius, no bounce, dramatically reduced Power and lower kill chance. Think of firing a shower of smaller rocks rather than a single boulder.

And for gods sake, something has to be done to Balista's. they are purely useless at present. Increase their Fear impact (seeing the guy next to you get torn in half by a massive spear that could have been coming at you instead will put the scares into anyone), give them a small blast radius and make their firing time the same as a crossbow. they'd still be pretty weak but might actually serve some useful purpose.

By the way, does anyone know how much the accuracy penalty is for having an obstructed view? I'm curious about this as if it's not that much I'll start using my Archers in a 3 ranks more often.

[bondovic]

You're only allowing 20 seconds to react.


Archers shouldn't be effective against heavy cavalry.

Actually, I'd like to see your argument leading to your conclusions rather than simply hearing what's what. No point in having a discussion if there is no intention of explaining ones position.

I think you are wrong to say only 20 secs. You see the formation of an advancing enemy well ahead and so have plenty of time to counter set your own formation. But I would also like to question the relevance of this, if it would have been true. Why is that a problem? You will still need to deal with archers the same way, modded or not. You will suffer the same casualties if they are left to do their business, modded or not.

As for your opinion that archers should not be effective against HC, you're welcome to it. The point was, rather than hearing your personal opinion, to debate your statement that archers would no longer need protection. They still do. The main difference now being that HC needs protection as well. For me this makes the game harder, more interesting and faster.

[Caerfanan]

Heavy Cavs shot by archers (we're not talking of arbalests) is not right. That's actually what surprised the muslim fighters during the crusades. While the Francs were falling because of the sunn they wouldn't die "enough" under the arrow fire, thanks to their armors.

In the vanilla game, I was actually surprised by what 6 units of archers could do to one unit of Mongl Heavies crossing a bridge.

I'd maybe, as Puzz3D said, increase a bit the number of ammunitions, but that's all...

[bondovic]

Heavy Cavs shot by archers (we're not talking of arbalests) is not right. That's actually what surprised the muslim fighters during the crusades. While the Francs were falling because of the sunn they wouldn't die "enough" under the arrow fire, thanks to their armors.

In the vanilla game, I was actually surprised by what 6 units of archers could do to one unit of Mongl Heavies crossing a bridge.

I'd maybe, as Puzz3D said, increase a bit the number of ammunitions, but that's all...

My stats actually allow heavily armoured units to survive quite well. 200 arrows took out 17 katatanks. And that was a battle with that unit against my 4 HA's, so it was clear shooting all the time. Much more, though, would feel like unreasonable numbers.

[bondovic]

Oh, by the way, I use 'heavy cavalry' by the classical meaning, namely by referring to cav units that are intended to fight meele. So, it's a broad definition that allows even for the likes of Steppe Cavalry to fall under the category. For them to be susceptible to missiles is less awkward, I guess.

[bondovic]

My stats actually allow heavily armoured units to survive quite well. 200 arrows took out 17 katatanks. And that was a bullshit battle with that unit against my 4 HA's, so it was clear shooting all the time. Much more, though, would feel like unreasonable numbers.

I'm such a mathematics genius. Should be 800 arrows, right?