Your most overrated/underrated unit

[gurakshun]

DISCLAIMER:in no way is this a criticism on EB. But obviously, when you have such a wide variety of troops and often many different troops competing for the same role in your army, there are naturally going to be better choices and worse choices for who you want in your army.

In this thread, post your faction and the most overrated troop(s) you can recruit, as well as the most underrated troop(s) you can recruit.

We all know elites who cost an arm and leg in upkeep rock in EB, but what about your favorite troops who can provide close to the same level performance without costing so damn much!

And what about the troops that you COULD recruit but perform way below your expectations and most importantly, $$ value?

I'll start:

Faction: Pontos

MVPs of the underrated

• Keltohellenikoi Hoplitai - cheap as hell galatian soldiers from Ancyra, who not only have the same attack as greek classical hoplites, but have only 4 less defense than the greek classical hoplites. Instead, you get the ability of throwing 2 javelins (which are to be used throwing into pinned cavalry before they charge and destroy them in melee), and the "hardy" attribute. Also, on the defensive, they can stand a enemy cavalry charge quite readily since they always keep their spears out. Absolutely highly recommended, and well suited for guarding your flanks.

• Persian Archer-Spearmen - well, these are already well publicized as being extremely effective and cost efficient, but i cannot stress it enough. The only issue is that they are a little far off from my starting zone.

• Bosphoran Heavy Archers - extremely well armored and shielded, possess a very decent missle attack number and to top it off, come with the "hardy" attribute. All of this for 10xx mnai, and will perform very well in providing missle support for your units while taking very few losses.

The UGLY.
It is a shame that this list is so populated, and even so i think I am forgetting some.

• Galatian Heavy Cavalry - UGH, the definition of overrated. Not only are they extremely expensive, they possess a miserable armor rating and miserable charge lethality/charge value. the West at the time was not famed for cavalry, and these guys definitely show it be being totally outclassed by their eastern counterparts. Instead, take a trip one province over and recruit the far superior kinsmen heavy cavalry, who have very good charge lethality, charge damage, and armor ratings. Not to mention can be recruited with a lower level MIC.

• Galatian Heavy Spearmen - absolutely overrated. Since the sword is the primary, they are crap at receiving cavalry charges. Although the spear attack is quite hefty, it's only 2 more than the classic hoplites/celto-hellenic infantry, both of who are much more cost effective and perform much better.
  Not to mention they are not even 'hardy', so they get tired pathetically fast. Their armor rating is good but their offense and staying power is very bad for so called "elites" or even 'semi-elites'.

• Pontic Thorakitai - they require a level 4 factional MIC, have only 80 men per unit, have bad armor (most of their 20 defense goes to defense skill, not armor. So much for 'Thorakitai'). For offense, they have a good javelin but its range is only 35 . Then when it comes to melee, they are armed with kiddy safe toothpicks with 0.1 lethality. Not to mention they are not even 'hardy' - so much for being mobile. Their recruitment cost isnt so bad but the requisite infrastructure makes these guys leaving you lacking more.

• Honorable Mention- Chalkaspides. In addition to costing a lot, they seem to have a really bad problem NOT routing. Probably because they get exhausted so easily (not having 'hardy'). I keep mentioning 'hardy' because as far as traits go, this one is the most valuable in that it determines how quick your men get tied and how quick they recover.

[antisocialmunky]

The Caucasian units are very nice considering the Hai start dirt poor and that they cost only as much as the inferior (looking at you pandas) units around them. Caucasian Archers are a great bang for the buck.

[Kromulan]

I have to agree on those archer-spearmen - Saba get an Arabian version in their Factional MIC - one of the best (range+attack) archer units in game, plus they're cavalry killers in melee.
Same goes for Arabian light infantry (basically javelin skirmishers armed with spears). Cheap and effective.
I dunno if you can call them underrated, but I also love Drapanai. Fast and absolutely LETHAL (AP+very high lethality) for dirt cheap.

As to the underperformers, I haven't had much luck with any of hellenic spearmen (thoratikai or theurophoroi).


EDIT: If I wasn't such a slow typist, we'd only have 1 of these threads going right now!

[konny]

A unit that is terribly overrated IMHO are the Germanic horsemen. They are just skirmisher cavalry without the skirmish or circle ability and cost a lot more than comparable horsemen from the neighbouring factions.

[The General]

A unit that is terribly overrated IMHO are the Germanic horsemen. They are just skirmisher cavalry without the skirmish or circle ability and cost a lot more than comparable horsemen from the neighbouring factions.

The only thing that I remember about them is their high cost, really. I didn't find them to be very good during my Sweboz campaign, and just after conquering my initial realm I disbanded them along most of my armies, and never build more. All infantry is quite slow and somewhat boring, but they just don't seem worth the money invested in them... I'd rather just hire Sarmatians/Skythians etc from the east, or something.

[Sarkiss]

Armenian FMs rock!
at the start of the campaign i always get a few in the army to execute infamous, lethal hammer and anvil. no other cavalry required.
did i mentioned they're also free

[Sdragon]

Galatian Heavy Spearmen are awesome. I've got a massive Pontic kingdom right now (Ptolemy, Armenia, Saba are gone, Selucia is on the ropes) and these guys have been in the thick of it. They are best on the flanks so their low numbers don't cause problems. They hack through anything and will fight despite the odds. I've only had 2 units of these guys rout and that was the same battle when my entire army was destroyed, it was only them left surrounded and still killing. I've had a unit knocked down from 120 to 6 and still holding on Shaken.

Galatian Heavy Cavalry: Thracian's to the West, Kinsmen to the East, Greeks to the South, all are better than these but until you get them these guys rock. Even afterwards they can handle themselves. They are more of a charge and then hang in melee for a while cavalry. There are better options but I still find a place for them in some of my armies

Pontic Elite Infantry: These guys are nothing special and are pretty much the Greek spearmen but with swords instead. Same attack, defence, cost. The name Elite is miss leading, they are just basic troops more geared towards fighting infantry. The infrastructure needed and the small recruitment zone makes them a rare sight in my armies these days, I just use them because they look cool and I have some hardened units from earlier wars. But when it comes down to it the Greek so called lighter version has a wider recruitment and does the job the same just as well.

Bronze Shields: Yet to have a unit of these rout. A rock hard phalanx unit that can fight with swords if needed. Considering Pontus doesn't have access to higher end phalanx troops these guys are gold. With experience they slaughter all. One unit with 6 experience held against a unit of Ptolemy elite Phalanx and 3 units of Egyptian pike men all at the same time. Lost 90 men but they did it.

[Morte66]

Faction: Pontos

I just laid my Pontic game to rest, so this is a most interesting post. :)

MVPs of the underrated: Keltohellenikoi Hoplitai, Persian Archer-Spearmen, Bosphoran Heavy Archers

A "hell yes" for the Keltohellenikoi Hoplitai, they're cheap and hardass. Shame about the limited recruitment.

Both archer units are nice for archers, but I'm an AP slinger guy at heart. I don't mind my slingers taking some missile casualties -- they're cheap, they're recruitable, it builds their experience which helps them more than most units.

I'll add a plug for that most unassuming of units, unsung backbone of the Pontic military, the Pantadapoi Phalangitai. They're not as good as most of the pike phalanxes you face, but they're good enough to pin them while somebody else flanks. They're cheap and they have an excellent recruiting zone. Apart from specialist jobs like grinding down mainstreet in a siege (get merc Pezhetairoi or Chalkaspides), they do pretty much everything an elite phalanx does for half the money. They're a unit that wins wars, not just battles.

Another bargain: Horse Archers. Cheap, dangerous to infantry spam, good feinters to pull the enemy out of shape, good rout chasers, and they suffer very low casualties if used conservatively so it doesn't matter if they're a long way from their MIC. I use the level 1 regional MIC at Kotais and some mercs. I wouldn't bother with the lance version, they may be better in a charge but HAs have no business charging in a Pontic army; plus they're harder to come by and they mess with logistics (can't merge the two sorts).

UGLY: Galatian Heavy Cavalry - UGH, the definition of overrated.

Yep. They really suck. They're abysmal. Probably historical, but that doesn't mean a discerning King of Pont should hire them. And the hugely expensive MIC you need to build them almost nowhere can't recruit any other unit. Head east, get Kinsmen, and have your FMs work for a living.

Galatian Heavy Spearmen, Pontic Thorakitai

Not actually bad units, just overpriced and under-recruitable for what they do. A mix of Hellenic Spearmen, Karian Warbands, Classical Hoplites and whatnot does the same job cheaper and with way better MIC/merc recruiting.

Honorable Mention - Chalkaspides. In addition to costing a lot, they seem to have a really bad problem NOT routing. Probably because they get exhausted so easily (not having 'hardy'). I keep mentioning 'hardy' because as far as traits go, this one is the most valuable in that it determines how quick your men get tied and how quick they recover.

Now I haven't had that problem at all, not even a little bit. Maybe my Chalky Spiders are all with good generals who keep their morale up. Maybe it's because of my fencing style, I try to pull the enemy apart and destroy them in detail in a series of small engagements which give the troops time to rest.

[jhhowell]

Since the other thread is only about the good units, I'll chime in on units I've found not worth recruiting.

Toxotai - no explanation needed.

Armenian Skirmisher Cavalry, Armenian Horse Archers - Hayasdan can trivially acquire Scythian HA in level 1 regional MICs (Kotais, etc.), so there's really no point to these units. The Skirmishers are far weaker than the HA, and the Armenian HA are identical to the Scythians with a substantially greater upkeep.

Scythian Axemen - similar stats to all the other axemen in the east, but a smaller unit size.

[Zarax]

Pontikoi thorakitai and galatian heavy cav are among the most redundant units (IMHO) I've experienced so far...

[antisocialmunky]

Toxotai - no explanation needed.

Still better than .80

[roman]

Great timing on the post. Just finished my KH campaign and now playing as Hai.

Underrated unit = Scithian horse archers. Outstanding cheap unit for both charge and chase or rain of arrows from one heck of a distance. Also one of the best units to harass and draw out units from formation.

I have Persian spear man / archers man my forts (cheap cost being primary reason), because i use slinger and above mentioned Scithian horse archers as my primary range units. I have yet to try them in a main battle line. One unit got almost wiped out after receiving a charge from Seleucid FM cav. unit. Do they automatically switch to spears once enemy is engaging them in hand to hand?

Roman.

[Pharnakes]

Thrakian pelatastai and Thrakian prodromoi are the best. Also sycthed chariots.

Over rated?

All galatains, jav cav, horse archers with knives, elephants.

lol, S drgaon is in direct opposite of the OP.

[Sdragon]

Just have to defend the units being down played that I've used for 100 years. :P

[konny]

Toxotai - no explanation needed.

What's wrong with Toxotai? OK, they are not as good as their Asian counterparts but basicly do what they should for a reasonable price.

[Callicles]

Most Underrated: The old pre 1.0 Pontic bodyguards. Those guys were great, but no one liked them. I wish I had them still instead of the Cataphract-like monsters Pontos has now.

[Intranetusa]

I absolutely hate the "Doryphoroi Pontikoi - Pontic Light Spearmen" - very expensive crap mercenaries... >.<

[Tellos Athenaios]

Underrated? Just about every archer from the East. Particularly devastating are the archers from Khotan, and the Arabian tribal levies (who can outshoot even eastern slingers!) Pantodapoi phalangitai (often more useful than klerouchoi because of the AP axe), peltastai, Caucasian spearmen. Oh and those axemen. Akontistai: 120 javelins at the same time hits hard.

Overrated: the Anatolikoi Phyletes and the Skythian equivalent; balearic slingers.

[Jaywalker-Jack]

Most Underrated: The old pre 1.0 Pontic bodyguards. Those guys were great, but no one liked them. I wish I had them still instead of the Cataphract-like monsters Pontos has now.

They kinda looked like they were wearing pjamas though

[Morte66]

the best. Also sycthed chariots.

Sir, you have mastered an art which eludes me. I salute you.

Over rated? jav cav,

God yes.

horse archers with knives,

Deadly attrition machines. Don't expect them to end the battle, just to tip it (for less than 5% casulaties, which wins you the prolonged war far from home).

elephants.

Strictly for lightning city assaults on turns 1-4.

[beatoangelico]

the good: the eastern archers, every one has its use (the archers-spearmen are a very good all-round, the standard persian archers are very cheap and with a great range, the subeshi have an even better range and a 1.0 leathality shortsword, and last but not least the more expensive heavy persian archers); peltastai, lots of javelins, good armor, great flexibility; classical hoplites, almost overpowered IMHO; campanian cavalry, expensive but much better then most skirmisher cavalry

the bad: velites, good armor, good morale, good ranged attack but a crappy dagger that pales against the spear of the camillan leves; thorakitai, too expensive considering the limited upgrade from thereuphoroi; pontikoi thorakitai, almost useless atm, too close to the widely available thereuphoroi

[Dyabedes of Aphrodisias]

In my Getai campaign:

MVPs:

Drapanai - These guys'll plow armored units over when given some heavier support (i.e. these guys are the best damned flankers). They'll take on most light and medium infantries, and you can pay them in pork. Their problems are missiles and being left to hold off anything alone, but they're remarkably useful.

Komatai Epilektoi: These guys are beasts, and they'll also accept pork as payment. Their stats are godly for the price (I've heard it's a mistake, so if it is I'll make damned good use of it before 1.1), and that's pretty much it for them. They may be technically skirmishers, but they'll do anything you'd normally do with heavy swordsmen.

Thraikioi Romphaiaphoroi - You all know why these are on here. Worth every penny of their affordable price. They'll plow through most anything with minimal losses, and they look really cool.

Bosphoroi Toxotai and Scythian Foot Archers - Ditto with the OP. Cheap and good, just how I like it. Oh, and hardy.

Iosatae - We all know.

Hoplitai - Very good infantry for a moderate price. I send these guys with the drapanai to do flankings.

Thraikioi Doryphoroi - These guys are amazing. Cheap, reliable, and good. You get 240 of them for a fair price, and they'll perform any medium infantry task you should like to give them. They'll fill holes in the line, protect your flanks, provide spear protection for missiles, garrison cities, etc. A good all-round unit.

Costobocii Axemen - Their stats aren't that impressive, and neither is their price, but they never cease to make me proud. I can use these guys for anything; they'll take on cavalry, duke it out with infantry, flank, chop any stray unit that may have tried to flank you, storm walls, storm gates, etc. Mine are all silver-chevron now because I love them so much, even with seemingly superior options.

LVPs:

Dacian Heavy Phalanx: Less bang for the buck than the light phalanx. You get I think one point extra in both defense and attack for a handsome price. There may be hidden stats in there to justify it, but I've ditched both phalanxes by now anyway.

Thraikioi Peltastai - Now pretty much useless with komatai epilektoi on the cheap.

Komatai - (See: Thraikioi Peltastai)

And that's it.

Has anyone used the Scythian Axemen to any extent? I have them readily available, but I've avoided them because of their stats and I wish to know if they're hiding something or if they really are just light infantry with axes.

[gurakshun]

Now I haven't had that problem at all, not even a little bit. Maybe my Chalky Spiders are all with good generals who keep their morale up. Maybe it's because of my fencing style, I try to pull the enemy apart and destroy them in detail in a series of small engagements which give the troops time to rest.

Yeah, they are great in Field Battles, but when it comes to sieges (especially where your guys must run around for like 5 minutes to get to the town square because you attacked the city at an inconvenient place), they cause me a lot of troubles when it comes to subduing the square defenders. Sieges are timed and require your units to perform really well to capture the square. Having all exhausted units because your so-called elites have the physical fitness level of a bucket of lard does not make this easy.

On this, I would rather take Kleruchoi Phalangitai over the Chalky Spiders - the Kleruchois cost less, have only a little less defense (which is made up by the type 3 gov't exp bonus that you need to recruit them with), and most importantly: have the 'hardy' attribute.

even the weakest of the levy phalangites can perform well in a field battle, all they have to do is stand still more or less and wait for the hammer attack! the real test of whether your phalangites are good or not is how well they perform sweeping the streets and playing the anvil to your hammer in siege battles.

Galatian Heavy Spearmen are awesome. I've got a massive Pontic kingdom right now (Ptolemy, Armenia, Saba are gone, Selucia is on the ropes) and these guys have been in the thick of it. They are best on the flanks so their low numbers don't cause problems. They hack through anything and will fight despite the odds. I've only had 2 units of these guys rout and that was the same battle when my entire army was destroyed, it was only them left surrounded and still killing. I've had a unit knocked down from 120 to 6 and still holding on Shaken.

Galatian Heavy Cavalry: Thracian's to the West, Kinsmen to the East, Greeks to the South, all are better than these but until you get them these guys rock. Even afterwards they can handle themselves. They are more of a charge and then hang in melee for a while cavalry. There are better options but I still find a place for them in some of my armies

Pontic Elite Infantry: These guys are nothing special and are pretty much the Greek spearmen but with swords instead. Same attack, defence, cost. The name Elite is miss leading, they are just basic troops more geared towards fighting infantry. The infrastructure needed and the small recruitment zone makes them a rare sight in my armies these days, I just use them because they look cool and I have some hardened units from earlier wars. But when it comes down to it the Greek so called lighter version has a wider recruitment and does the job the same just as well.

Bronze Shields: Yet to have a unit of these rout. A rock hard phalanx unit that can fight with swords if needed. Considering Pontus doesn't have access to higher end phalanx troops these guys are gold. With experience they slaughter all. One unit with 6 experience held against a unit of Ptolemy elite Phalanx and 3 units of Egyptian pike men all at the same time. Lost 90 men but they did it.

Boy, I am surprised to find anyone with anything good to say about those galatian heavy cavalry! Responses to your comments -

Galatian Heavy Spearman - your measure of their performance seems to be based on how good of a general you are, not their true effectiveness. Just because they are well armored doesn't mean they are worth their 2012 recruitment cost and 503 mnai upkeep. Compare that to celto-hellenic infantry, which will come with 80 men, 1248 recruitment cost, and 312 upkeep. The celto-hellenes come with javelins, 'hardy', and a spear attack only 2 less than the galatians! not to mention 20 extra men!. The fact that they didnt rout those times seems to be more your generalship/FM's morale ability, because these galatians have only 13 morale. Nothing awe-inspiring, which leads me to believe your tales of their bravery is more related to something else in your game rather than their real ability.

Galatian Heavy Cavalry - do you REALLY think these guys are worth their 3476 recruitment/ 869 upkeep? When you get inferior armor and inferior charges? Compare that to Kinsmen heavy cav, only 1 province over, which only cost 13 mnai more in upkeep (x4 for recruitment), who have a whopping 0.07 more charge lethality, ELEVEN whole more charge, and more armor?

Remember, these units do still have some value but way less value than their cost would indicate.

Pontic Elite Infantry - WHY? why would they be more suited to fight infantry? thureophoroi come with 80 men and 0.125 lethality, and compare that to pontic 'elite' infantry who come with the same amount of men but with crap 0.1 shortsword lethality. They do look cool, but they are sadly worthless. And hardened (exp'd units) are always worth a lot, even the lamest of levies.

Pontic Elite Phalanx - read what I said above to Morte66 and compare them to Kleruchoi Phalangitai (who also get a +1 exp boost from the type 3 gov't, so dont forget).

Sir, you have mastered an art which eludes me. I salute you.

Use the scythed chariots against enemy heavy cav,enemy FM's, and loose formation enemy infantry (usually the AI loose formations its skirmishers and archers). Against the heavy/FM cavs, they will probably rout, but not before causing major casualties AND tying up the enemy general for a good bit. Remember what happens when cav tries to chase routing scyhted chariots too? And once the battle over, the scythed chariots have a strange tendency to recover a very good amount of their losses.

Thraikioi Peltastai - Now pretty much useless with komatai epilektoi on the cheap.

The Thracian peltasts still have the bugged insanely high lethalities (0.285!!!!) and come 80 men per unit with AP swords, and not to mention the javelins. I bet the thracian peltasts would smash in the komatai epilektoi any day of the week until EB 1.1

All galatains, jav cav, horse archers with knives, elephants.

Why DO you hate galatians so much? If you don't mind me asking...

[Dyabedes of Aphrodisias]

The Thracian peltasts still have the bugged insanely high lethalities (0.285!!!!) and come 80 men per unit with AP swords, and not to mention the javelins. I bet the thracian peltasts would smash in the komatai epilektoi any day of the week until EB 1.1

Wait...are you serious? God...damnit. I need to make an investment...

[struckat]

Underrated

Indian longbowmen and the guys with the big pot leaf on their helmets (Guild warriors)

In my Pahlava campaign my cats just sit back and watch in awe.

Once all the arrows are gone, the bowmen charge and the potheads flank.
None can withstand them.

Overrated

No, I love them all.

Ok...Elephants, but I still love them.

[Perturabo]

Most Underrated: The old pre 1.0 Pontic bodyguards. Those guys were great, but no one liked them. I wish I had them still instead of the Cataphract-like monsters Pontos has now.

I have to agree on this, the new bodyguards just aren't the same. Used to have fun using these guys as skirmishers and then charging the flanks/backs when the enemy got tied down in battle. Being a little bit different to the rest doesn't hurt!

Most overrated:

Elephants, no matter how big or how much armour they go down like clay targets. I once defended Pella against Epeiros (first turn attack) who had the big fella and his full army with elephants attacking. I had a unit of the very basic hellenic skirmishers (can't remember the name) and nothing else in the town. One volley of javelins, the elephants panicked, routed, wiped out Pyrrhos (sp) and trampled a few other units on the way home. Battle over.
I tried the new armoured elephants in my Baktrian campaign (very, very nice looking btw)... 5700 upkeep per turn, one unit routed them in the first battle with less then 25% casualties
I have seen (no joking) units of archers/slingers trying to shoot elephants while still in hand to hand combat with infantry, and detroying the elephants in the process.
Everything is stacked against them, no point whatsoever in using them except as instant battering rams against wooden walls, and even then they cost far too much to be cost effective.

[Horst Nordfink]

Most overrated:

Elephants, no matter how big or how much armour they go down like clay targets. I once defended Pella against Epeiros (first turn attack) who had the big fella and his full army with elephants attacking. I had a unit of the very basic hellenic skirmishers (can't remember the name) and nothing else in the town. One volley of javelins, the elephants panicked, routed, wiped out Pyrrhos (sp) and trampled a few other units on the way home. Battle over.
I tried the new armoured elephants in my Baktrian campaign (very, very nice looking btw)... 5700 upkeep per turn, one unit routed them in the first battle with less then 25% casualties
I have seen (no joking) units of archers/slingers trying to shoot elephants while still in hand to hand combat with infantry, and detroying the elephants in the process.
Everything is stacked against them, no point whatsoever in using them except as instant battering rams against wooden walls, and even then they cost far too much to be cost effective.

I agree wholeheartedly. About as much use as tits on a kipper!

[LorDBulA]

Reading recent comments I had to add this.

Most underrated:
Elephants

Its true that this unit is fragile. Used by AI is almost no threat(unless You forgot Your missile units ).
You have to be carful how You use it and it has limited use.
For example I would never bring Elephants against celts.

But it is also only unit that routs enemy army in like 20 seconds.
It provides one sided victories that lets You to plow through enemy armies with minimal casualties.

I just miss them so much in my Haysadan campagne.
If I could get one unit of this beasts I would just devastate Ptolemies numerous armies.

[jhhowell]

What's wrong with Toxotai? OK, they are not as good as their Asian counterparts but basicly do what they should for a reasonable price.

They're basically slingers without the AP. Real archers come in larger units with much higher attack values. I find it puzzling that their zone of recruitment extends east of the Sinope-Tarsus line, and even in the west I'd prefer sphendonetai...

Another underrated unit: Georgian Medium Infantry. Not as good as Srakir Martikner, but they appear as mercenaries who can later be retrained in northern Hayasdan cities. I found that very helpful to sidestep the question of how to build up my armies without stunting population growth.

Possibly overrated: the top-end Hayasdan noble units (infantry and cataphracts). The infantry doesn't seem enough better than the Srakir Martikner to justify the effort, and the upkeep cost has kept me away from the cataphracts so far. Especially since the cataphract HA and Kinsmen are both such outstanding units.

[pezhetairoi]

Hold on a minute... you mean you can retrain those factional-unit mercs in MICs? O.O

Overrated: Ridanz. The Sweboz cavalry are really poor, compared to the similarly equipped Leuce Epos. Only 2 javelins as opposed to the Leuce Epos' 6, and with practically identical stats, it means they die fast for not as much value-addedness.

Belgae Milnaht. They simply don't cut it. They die faster than similar-level infantry from mainland gaul or even similarly half-naked Germans, and their unit size of 160, in a region swarming with 240 and comparable 200-man battalions, simply doesn't cut the cake except that they fill up a small recruitment gap, and even then not by much.

Underrated: Iaosatae, for sure. 'nuff said.

Appea Gaedotos: Cheap, with very great holding power, decent armour, reasonable upkeep, and instantly available once you conquer the Rhaetic provinces. Compared to the agony of creation you have to go through to get Mori Gaesum in just one province, they are much more worth the price.