Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: What do you mean by "Legion?"

  1. #1

    Question What do you mean by "Legion?"

    I was wondering what Romani players mean by "Legion?" I've played the Romani for a while now. Unless I am doing something "wrong" (always possible), it seems the AI has no problem exceeding 20 units in a "stack," but "I" can not [THAT is a separate but related question, BTW]. Excepting the general (unless you try to fight without one!), that leaves me 19 units. If each 80-man (60 men if Accensi) unit is a "maniple" (80 men in the 1st to 3rd Centuries was a "century!), then I need 40 such units, not 19, just to make the basic legion, and then not counting any "auxiliaries."

    Would I be correct in assuming you guys are using the term "legion" rather loosely for something that approximates the "feel" and "proportions" of a legion, but not its specific "numbers?" After all, a legion ought to have something like 5 or 6000 men, and my best stacks only run to about 1900, and that's when I load up with 120-man units like Rorarii and auxiliary Gallic levees from Bononia!!!

    T'anks!

  2. #2
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Brighton, East Sussex, England (GMT)
    Posts
    10,736

    Default Re: What do you mean by "Legion?"

    Try playing on huge unit size, which increases the number of soldiers in a unit, but remember that even with that the ratio of ingame to historical is not 1:1, that would be impossible. Battles were fought with 100,000s of soldiers, not the thousands that RTW allows.

    Foot
    EBII Mod Leader
    Hayasdan Faction Co-ordinator


  3. #3
    Member Member Lovejoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    408

    Default Re: What do you mean by "Legion?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Come in Nighthawk
    AI has no problem exceeding 20 units in a "stack," but "I" can not [THAT is a separate but related question, BTW]
    No it cant, it just look like it. Its hard to explain.. but on the campain map, if you double click a enemy army, a 20 unit stack will look like this:

    00000000
    00000000
    00

    each "zero" representing a unit card. If you look quickly it looks like 22 units, but if you count its only 20! Hope that made sense!

  4. #4
    Member Member Michiel de Ruyter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Delft, The Netherlands
    Posts
    405

    Default Re: What do you mean by "Legion?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Come in Nighthawk
    After all, a legion ought to have something like 5 or 6000 men, and my best stacks only run to about 1900, and that's when I load up with 120-man units like Rorarii and auxiliary Gallic levees from Bononia!!!

    T'anks!
    Legions were supposed to have that strength on paper! They might have had that size when they were established and at opportune times (like just before a major campaign), but probabely rarely ever were at full strength...

    A strength report of a cohort of most likely miliaria status, perhaps even miliaria equitata (so double strength of a regular auxilia cohort with perhaps a few cavalry squadrons integrated), so roughly 1000 men on paper reports less the 750! Including a sizeable number of those as 'sick'

    And late Roman legions were only around 1000-12000 strong (full strength on paper)
    For a small country, we have kicked some really good (naval) butt...

  5. #5

    Talking Re: What do you mean by "Legion?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Michiel de Ruyter
    Legions were supposed to have that strength on paper! They might have had that size when they were established and at opportune times (like just before a major campaign), but probabely rarely ever were at full strength...

    A strength report of a cohort of most likely miliaria status, perhaps even miliaria equitata (so double strength of a regular auxilia cohort with perhaps a few cavalry squadrons integrated), so roughly 1000 men on paper reports less the 750! Including a sizeable number of those as 'sick'

    And late Roman legions were only around 1000-12000 strong (full strength on paper)
    Yes, I know all that; I have been reading Graham Webster, etc., for about 30 years now. I find the various strength reports you refer to, and including the relatively-recently-published "tablets" from Vindolanda, absolutely fascinating stuff -- but then I find monthly strength reports for the US Army from the 1920s fascinating!!

    I do appreciate the answer nonetheless, and perhaps, given the answer, I didn't express my question well enough... The earlier replies came closer to addressing my real issue... It is obviously a "game" issue; there is just so much you can do to approach "historical realism" and still have a workable "game." Got it.


  6. #6

    Default Re: What do you mean by "Legion?"

    My working theory:

    Normal Unit Size - 1 man in R:TW = 40 men in real life.
    Large Unit Size - 1 man in R:TW = 20 men in real life.
    Huge Unit Size - 1 man in R:TW = 10 men in real life.

    A full Roman stack of 20 units for me equals a consular army of 2 legions and 2 allied legions. At Cannae there were two consular armies joined together, so that's two Roman stacks fighting in the same battle.

  7. #7

    Default Re: What do you mean by "Legion?"

    Thats about how i realise it too Titus, i multiply by 20 when im writing in my AAR, so if i had 1000, id say the 20 000 strong army, etc.
    In the words of Marcvs Avrelivs;
    Live each day as if it were your last

    Ο ΠΟΛΕΜΟΣ ΚΑΤΑ ΤΗΣ ΣΕΛΕΥΚΕΙΑΣ - A Makedonike AAR
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=97530

  8. #8
    Whatever Member konny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Germania Inferior
    Posts
    1,787

    Default AW: Re: What do you mean by "Legion?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Titus Marcellus Scato
    A full Roman stack of 20 units for me equals a consular army of 2 legions and 2 allied legions.
    The same for me, what makes 5 units for a Legion. One Legion alone doesn't really work because you would need some 1/2 units for it: Camillan skirmish infantry, Polybian Triarii and the cavalry. Therefore I always use "double Legions" with 10 units in-game (or 9+FM).

    Disclaimer: my posts are to be considered my private opinion and not offical statements by the EB Team

  9. #9

    Post Re: What do you mean by "Legion?"

    This is what I do to get "my legion":

    3 armies of the full 20 units consisting basically 2 velites, 3 hastati, 3 principles, 3 triarii, 1 archers, 2 rorarii, 1 accensi,2 samnite spear or heavy inf., 2 equites cons., and 1 one general unit.
    1 reserve army to fill gaps in units.

    On the campaign map I keep these close together and when commencing battle or attacked upon, I truly have a full legion to my disposal.
    It's comes close to an unbeatable lot...

    The total is about 6,000 (including the reserve-army)

    Recruitement takes about four and a half years (18 turns in the game!) and yes, costs alot of money! but after that, you're ready to take on any concentration of armies.

    Ofcourse battle tactics should be smart and generals excellent.

  10. #10
    Member Member Centurion Crastinus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Beaufort, South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    249

    Default Re: What do you mean by "Legion?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lovejoy
    No it cant, it just look like it. Its hard to explain.. but on the campain map, if you double click a enemy army, a 20 unit stack will look like this:

    00000000
    00000000
    00

    each "zero" representing a unit card. If you look quickly it looks like 22 units, but if you count its only 20! Hope that made sense!

    I have been playing this game for quite some time and I have always assumed that there were 22 units in the enemy stack. Shame on me for being too lazy to count.

  11. #11

    Default Re: What do you mean by "Legion?"

    Why not make the units larger (4x-10x more than huge)? You can also manipulate the city populations and sizes can you not?

    The problem with lesser performing PCs could be manage by scaling the unit sizes differently.

  12. #12

    Default Re: What do you mean by "Legion?"

    I am pretty sure the unit numbers are hard coded... Though I might be wrong because I don't remember any 240 man units in vanilla.
    Last edited by Wartz; 02-29-2008 at 22:16.

  13. #13

    Default Re: What do you mean by "Legion?"

    Yeah, I'd say they are, but you can always hope. I mean there are 240 sized right on down, and 3 officers with some units.

  14. #14
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Brighton, East Sussex, England (GMT)
    Posts
    10,736

    Default Re: What do you mean by "Legion?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kravixon
    Why not make the units larger (4x-10x more than huge)? You can also manipulate the city populations and sizes can you not?

    The problem with lesser performing PCs could be manage by scaling the unit sizes differently.
    None of those options are possible.

    Foot
    EBII Mod Leader
    Hayasdan Faction Co-ordinator


  15. #15
    The Creator of Stories Member Parallel Pain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Sitting on the Throne of My Empires
    Posts
    380

    Default Re: What do you mean by "Legion?"

    Besides, do you have a system that can take 70 000 men on the battlefield? Mine can only take 6400 MAX

  16. #16
    Not your friend Member General Appo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    As far away from you as possible. Scuzzbucket.
    Posts
    1,645

    Default Re: What do you mean by "Legion?"

    4 Velites + 4 Hastatii + 4 Principes + 1 FM + 2 Equites + 2 Triarii + 3 regional units. This is my Polybian era Consular Legion, it´ll take down anything.
    The Appomination

    I don't come here a lot any more. You know why? Because you suck. That's right, I'm talking to you. Your annoying attitude, bad grammar, illogical arguments, false beliefs and pathetic attempts at humour have driven me and many other nice people from this forum. You should feel ashamed. Report here at once to recieve your punishment. Scumbag.

  17. #17
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    ゞ( ゚Д゚)ゞ
    Posts
    5,974

    Default Re: What do you mean by "Legion?"

    I play on huge and pretty much consider 10 untis a legion. Anything less and it gets hard to play since you lose pretty much all your flexibility.
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



    "Hi, Billy Mays Here!" 1958-2009

  18. #18

    Default Re: What do you mean by "Legion?"

    I play on Large and consider a fullstack a legion. I like having "centuries" that I can command, and since each have their own Centurion as the officer. And as for the fact that real battles in Antiquity involved tens of thousands of men on either side... I just dont think about it.

    MARMOREAM•RELINQUO•QUAM•LATERICIAM•ACCEPI

  19. #19
    Amanuensis Member pezhetairoi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    South of Sabara
    Posts
    2,719

    Default Re: What do you mean by "Legion?"

    I have a Legion, and I have a legio. The legio is 2 hastati, 2 principes and 1 triarii, with 2 alae (identical groupings of 3 foreign units, or a third legio) and cavalry attached on. The whole thing makes a Legion (fullstack) in my reckoning.

    Which reminds me, how did the Greeks/Celts/Qarthadastim/Steppe/Eastern factions refer to their armies in their native language? I should like to write the indigenous equivalent of the word 'army' instead of, you know, 'army' in my notebook when referring to my standing forces. Like I always refer to my Legions as Legio II Rhaetia etc, for example. As I understand it the Greeks called an army 'stratos' so First Army would be something like 'Stratos protos'?


    EB DEVOTEE SINCE 2004

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO