Strategic brilliance - Tactical embarrasment

[kissemisse]

Hey guys, played my first game with EU 1.0 (all patches) the other day!

I picked the guys with the goat from souther arabian peninsula, near ethiopia. Can't rememeber the name right now, but of the tribe of Saba or something.

Either way, the game was going nicely, some tough fights. I quickly discovered that I love archers :P
I have just enough melees to hold up any chargers and then pebble the enemy with countless and countless arrows. Not sure what damage they actually do in terms of mechanics, but it's been doing the job nicely, and after some PAINFULLY slow (and yes I think I understand the movement mechanics, but the place is a huge desert... :P) conquering I took the whole arabian peninsula! Usually it's faster to just wait for roads to build then start moving again once I captured the "homeland" provinces and was moving on to subjugate new territory.

Anyway, Yey but it went abit too easy... So I got a bit bored, decided to start over on very hard instead, but I figured I'd first try Makedonia for a diffrent experience.



Diffrent indeed. I get squished. The autofight computer does better than me.

I don't know what to do with my troops, and I can't get the enemy to charge my guys with huge spears that move like snails. I've tried countless setups, and the computer just is smarter than me. The archers are useless compared to the arabian ones. 15 in each group.. compared to the Arabian.. 90? I try flanking, but then the computer flanks my flanking unit, before I can send in someone to flank the flanking flank flank...

My strategy during my arabian campaign consisted of playing defensive even on the offence, I mean I sent in my archers in loose formation - but still close enough to run behind the big guys standing out of range of enemy archers.
Our arrows did indeed blot out the sun, but the enemy wasn't fighting in the shade.. more like sleeping very heavily.. permanently

With Makedonia I can't since I have utter crud for archers. Well, maybe not crud but so extremely few in each unit.
I managed to take all of Greece and some of bulgaria/etc to the north and eastwards just across into Anatolia, thanks to my brilliant strategic capabilities, hah, but on the tactical level it's embarrasing. The computer is still winning for me but it's no fun that way.
I think there's something about the fighting I just don't understand.


Sorry for the long story. Here's the question.

Could someone point me to a thread that deals with this in more detail? I tried looking over the FAQ information regarding tactics, but it was mostly about the buildings.
Or just give me some simple pointers?

[DaCrAzYmOfO]

Well theres tons of threads, but the main point here is...

Anything above medium battles makes the AI VERY powerful...and anything above medium campaign makes em kinda kooky and have a powerful fetish for destruction of whatever you wanna call an empire.

I used to play VH/VH....till I got bored out of my mind killing 3 stacks of uber stat units with a single stack that couldnt be replenished....then it was like oh crap here come another 5 stacks...screw this lol

M/M is probably the best, it gives you choices and keeps everything nice and tidy.

Of course you can always opt for medium battles and harder campaigns, but thats your thing, just keep it to medium battles

[V.T. Marvin]

You may also wish to check the thread called "Your army Compositions and tactics" here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=83100

[kissemisse]

Super! Thanks :)

[Labrat]

Anything above medium battles makes the AI VERY powerful...and anything above medium campaign makes em kinda kooky and have a powerful fetish for destruction of whatever you wanna call an empire.

Specifically, anything above M battles gives the A.I.'s troops a major stat bonus. It does not make the A.I. itself better.

Recommended difficulty for EB is M battles, VH campaign.

[Redmeth]

Well actually Hard for campaigns is just as fine, we should change the recommended in the FAQ to H or VH (either way is good, H may even be more enjoyable).

Battles on M you might try H if you pick a strong faction but those rebeles in the Boii-Lugian script are hard on M so don't come here crying after they sent you home packing for the third time in a row.

[overweightninja]

Just to pick up on what you mentioned about archers, virtually all archers are ineffective when attacking well armed units from the front (ie phalanxes). This is not so much of a problem with the Saba as until you go up against the Ptolies or AS you're opponents generally have a large number of light units in their armies.
In phalanx warfare, you'll want to reserve your archers mainly for occupying enemy missile troops, and possibly to flank the enemy and then fire into their rear.
Oh and btw, the standard greek archers are awful, I prefer to take a unit or two of slingers instead, I find them much more useful.
Hope that helps
Cheers

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Hire Cretan mercenary archers or build sphendonetai instead. Missiles are virtually useless agains Phalanxes from front or side. You don't have to move them like snails though, just press "F", and they will leave phalanx-mode and go faster.

[DaCrAzYmOfO]

Also something strange I knoticed on both EB and Medieval 2 (with dues lo vult) was that in medium battles you get more diversified units, unlike the spammed elites or spammed pantadapodoi stacks of very hard >.>

[kissemisse]

Thanks all :) This plus the link will help.


I think I need to work abit on my Makedonian tactics.

Even when I think I'm doing a brilliant flanking, some troop I saw stand still a moment ago, has been moving in to flank my flankers. So I have to send more people to flank that flanker... and suddenly my line isn't a line anymore and people start dying ;)

Need to work on that. I read some tactics in that thread and I think I need a longer line with my assaulters on the edges. No need to have assaulters in the middle, and better to charge from side or behind I guess. Also need to use my horsies better.
Maybe even need to hide them all behind the phalanxes, since the real trouble is that the enemy start to charge my sides, I start reacting by moving phalanxes to block their charges, effectively breaking my line and allowing my phalanxes to be flanked. Brrr.. I started to repeat myself! Time to stop.

By the way, is it normal to hire a 6000 molah (menai?) merc unit and just get 12 horses? I saw others screenshots of groups of 200 men in each unit... Maybe that's much later with development? My Saba regiments started much larger though.


I don't have that much experience with Total war. The game won't run at all on my cruddy computer, so I just get to mercyplay the game and on his computer the normal game crashes for some reason, but not the mod.

[Foot]

The size of units depends on the unit size you have set in the option menu.

Foot

[kissemisse]

The size of units depends on the unit size you have set in the option menu.

Foot

Oh

Thanks!

[Tristuskhan]

Radical solution to your archer problem:

seize Kallatis (Mikra Skythia -sp!-), build lvl IV government, build local MIC 4.

Scythian archers: massive archer unit (80 men on large settings), cheap, good morale, highly skilled and very long range.

Bosphoran heavy archers: 60 men per unit, well armoured, good morale, able to perform well with their sword, quite cheap, medium range.

Scythian riders: middle class horse archers, good charge, cheap, fast. Two of such units+ your general + one unit of heavy cav (Thessalians?) is enough cavalry for any situation.

More: with gov IV and the highest temple of war (don't remember which it is for your Makedonians), recruits will come with two bronze chevrons. Add an armourer and you'll get the best missile units of our antique world. 4 cav+ 2 pure archers+ 4 armoured archers + 8 phallanxes+ 2 assault infantery was my model army in my Makedonian campaign.

I know it's not the Makedonian way of war, historically. That's why I gave up my Mak campaign and am the ruler of Parthia instead

[Watchman]

The Makedonian way of war is more or less summed up in "pikes in center, cavalry and the other mobiles in the flanks." Hey, worked for Alex...

[johnhughthom]

You probably gave up your Saba campaign just before it got interesting, if you took all of the arabian peninsula it was only a matter of time before the AS or the Ptolies (or both) attacked. Fighting sucessor armies with your lightly armed and armoured Sabean can be pretty tough at first.

[LennStar]

Specifically, anything above M battles gives the A.I.'s troops a major stat bonus. It does not make the A.I. itself better.

Recommended difficulty for EB is M battles, VH campaign.

M for battles and H for campaign is just right. Perhaps H for battles, if you like a challenge. Everythig more and it becomes either boring in later games (because everyone on the world is attacking you and you have countless battles) or VERY challenging, something you can only enjoy up to a point.

[Disciple of Tacitus]

Your first campaign was with the Sab'Yn?!?? You got some big ones. A bold choice for a bold player! See my signature for the results of my own Sab'yn campaign.
"ouch, stop poking me with your pointy pokey sticks you silly greeks!" was pretty much the slogan of my campaign.
Speaking of poking, keep poking around the forum for hints/advice/experience from everybody. You'll find us a helpful if off-kilter bunch.
ps. I recommend M/M until you've gotten a firm grasp of things. Most factions require a different tactical approach. Which has been the source of many a thread here.

[Conqueror]

For Makedonia, this is my advice:

If you like archers, go conquer Krete (the island south of Greece) and build up your normal MIC. You will be able to train Kretan archers (use mercenaries in the meantime). Use these units as your archers in Greece, Italy and Sicily. As Tristuskhan said, capture Kallatis and build up the local MIC, so you'll get Skythians and Bosphorans. Use these on the Balkans. If/When you invade Asia Minor, go for the eastern cities off the northern coast (Trapezous/ sp?) at least some of them let you train Caucasian archers. These will be a good unit to use in Asia Minor.

As for tactics, you need plenty of phalangites. The cheapest variety (Taxeis Phalangitai) will form most of your infantry line. Always keep your phalangites as solid line. Any other infantry (I recommend Thureophoroi, then later the heavier types) should be used to guard your flanks. Do not use them for flanking manouvers until after all of the enemy units are tied in melee.

Use your cavalry units to manouvre around the enemy flanks. If they try to counter-flank, pull your cavalry back - it should have the necessary speed to retreat. If they give chase, lead them to your infantry and then turn to charge them once they are tied. Keep your archers and other long-range missile units behind your phalanx line, with most of them formed on the left side (they will do more damage when shooting at the unshielded side of the enemy).

The Makedonian (and generally hellenistic successor-state) armies work best when fighting defensively. They become vulnerable if they have to march to attack an enemy waiting on high ground, especially in forested terrain. That is why you would do well to adopt the aggressive strategy map - defensive battles approach. In this approach you never attack other armies on the field, unless you absolutely have to. You march to the other faction's territory and camp on a hill, forcing them to attack you. If they don't dare to confront you on your terms, then lay siege to their cities - then they will have no choise but to fight aggressively against your strong defense, although you might have to forgo the advantage of deploying on high ground.

Hopefully you found this bit of advice useful. Good luck!