Camels?

[DefenderofFuture]

Hey, I noticed there's a lack of mounted Camel units in this mod. Were camel-mounted warriors really rare enough that you consider them not worth including? I know they weren't used nearly as often as Vanilla RTW suggests, but I think, at least among pastoral nomads, that dromedary-riding warriors were common enough to have them as a Eleutheroi option.

[Watchman]

The only ever use of dromedaries as war mounts in the period concerned I know of would be the northern Arabs, who liked to stick an archer atop one and be a real nuisance to their neighbours. A fine tradition that, as they apparently made no small amounts of trouble already for the ancient Israelites and the Assyrians.

Known to have formed part of the Seleukid skirmish line at Magnesia, too. Seen some talk of "swords four cubits long so they might reach their enemies from their high seat" in the context.

That's it, though. Camelids make lousy war-beasts in general far as I know - too stubborn and temperamental probably, and equipped with a rather inconvenient body geometry.

[DefenderofFuture]

Well, I know that they were used later in history, perhaps it wasn't until the Arab conquests that use became more common. That makes sense, since it seems that the Arabs were more fond of the animals than anyone else. I know more about the Arab conquests and the medieval period than Antiquity, especially the time the mod covers. I just assumed that since they were used in combat then, they were used in combat earlier. Even in that period, they weren't terribly common, but probably common enough that, should a game take place between the 600s-1200s, it should probably have them at least as an option, though probably not the best one.

[Watchman]

The Islamic Conquest period Arabs didn't use them as war mounts even that much, AFAIK.

I think you're confusing their actual main military use - transportation and pack animal - with combat use... In the latter the animals tended to chiefly get used as an obstacle to horses, a "cunnin' plan" apparently already employed by Cyrus the Great to distrupt the Lydian cavalry.

[stupac]

No offense to you, DefenderofFuture, but seems that camel threads are almost as common as LS threads. From what I've read previously, the cost in model slots would make camels totally impractical in putting in the game, especially for their rarity in the period, though even if they were more common it would probably be a toss up due to the technical limitation.

[beatoangelico]

LS
camels
"what's the script?"
"omg it's too slow!"

The classic EB forum threads

[CaesarAugustus]

You forgot "these naked wild men are overpowered".

[Hax]

Slingers.

[beatoangelico]

you're both right and there's also "why aren't there my legions in custom battles?"

[Gebeleisis]

i think you forgot to mention all the "omg the ptolemies have taken half the map and are kicking everyones ass" threads

[chenkai11]

[DefenderofFuture]

Wow.

I guess I struck a nerve? Sorry, I apparently don't visit these threads enough...

No Camels? Sure, no Camels! Alright! We all happy?

Haha, I don't even LIKE Camel units in games...too overpowered to the point of bs...

[DefenderofFuture]

But yeah, I assume you guys know more about the intricacies of the Camel in warfare than I do. Sorry I brought it up

[Geoffrey S]

Bit late, but when camels were used it was a rarity. They were extremely important throughout the Arabian peninsula, but not as mounts for battle - they were used as pack animals and for warriors to get to and from the battlefield. If they got directly involved it was usually chance. Those are the most important reasons for not including them.

Edit: just a quick quote from something I have lying around about Southern Arabia:

When in other contexts we find the expression 's1d/rkb "mounted warriors", who are clearly different from the cavalry, we must infer that they were mounted on camels; in early Arabic, a rakib without further specifications is assumed to be riding a camel. But the contexts do not suggest that camel-riders formed a distinct mehariste wing. It is more probably that, as was the custom in early central Arabia, riding camels were used by the whole army to ensure mobility, but in battle the riders dismounted to fight on foot. [...] Correspondingly, references to "men on foot" should not be taken to indicate a distinct infantry wing, but rather men not possessed of camels, who probably when on the march rode pillion behind one who did have a camel; this was also a common central Arabian custom.

[DefenderofFuture]

Geoffrey, that's a great quote, because I had read sources that mentioned "camel warriors", but that makes a LOT more sense than actually riding the camels to battle. Much like Dragoons from later European warfare who, rather than being actual mounted warriors, would dismount before battle. Thus, these guys who rode battles TO battle rather than IN battle is a very satisfying explanation. I know also that, of course, Camels were used in transport (and also for meat and milk), and that people would often switch to a horsey before battle was joined. I simply was protesting because I had read about camel warriors, but I just took the wrong interpretation of what a "Camel Warrior" was.

AKA, feel free to delete this thread, o powers that be. My complaint has been answered.

[Copperknickers]

i think you forgot to mention all the "omg the ptolemies have taken half the map and are kicking everyones ass" threads

Oh no, you forgot

"Haha, these load of NOOBS, we dont want them, go away, why should we have to explain something"

Ha ahaha, ahaha Naw (as we say in Scotland). Give him a break ....and did i just see what i thought i saw..Stupac?

'even if camels were common, they take up too many model slots so they couldnt be included'

What! What on earth kind of a justification is that for not having them in the most uber realistic game ever?

[Ludens]

'even if camels were common, they take up too many model slots so they couldnt be included'

What! What on earth kind of a justification is that for not having them in the most uber realistic game ever?

The fact that the R:TW engine only allows for a limited number of models, and hence only a finite number of units can be included?

[Disciple of Tacitus]

And I quote...
"LS"
"camels"
"what's the script?"
"omg it's too slow!"
"Slingers."
"omg the ptolemies have taken half the map and are kicking everyones ass"

Wouldn't life just be easier if we stickied these? We would save room and stress and new guys would find it easier as well. Just an idea.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

And I quote...
"LS"
"camels"
"what's the script?"
"omg it's too slow!"
"Slingers."
"omg the ptolemies have taken half the map and are kicking everyones ass"

Wouldn't life just be easier if we stickied these? We would save room and stress and new guys would find it easier as well. Just an idea.

I tried to adress most of these problems in the FAQ when I rewrote it. But I guess nobody ever reads it...

[Matinius Brutus]

I tried to adress most of these problems in the FAQ when I rewrote it. But I guess nobody ever reads it...

I did Marcus! You've done a great job there!!! You work was not in vain