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Thread: The land that EB forgot
I understand why it was taken out, but I miss Dumatha, useless and all as it was. I think the minimap looked better, especially for a faction like Sab'yn, when you didn't have that gaping hole in the middle of your territory.
Plus I think there's good logic for including it. People did live in the region, and a strong regional power could well have tried to gain their submission and claim the desert as part of their sphere of influence.
Bear in mind vast tracts of most regions in the game would have been impossible to actually control, except in a nominal sense, i.e. the ruling faction's claim being recognised by the other factions.
Then what about the Sahara you might ask.
Well, none of the factions depicted could or would claim sovereignity over it, realisticly. Arabia is different in that a faction controlling all the surrounding provinces would probably claim the interior as nominaly within its domain as well.
Also by occupying the chief town, Dumatha, the inhabitants of the whole terrirtory would effectively have to work with this faction; so in a sense the claim would be more than just imaginary.
Augila could be merged with Libye, or better yet Gaetulia with Sahara to make room.
Plus I think there's good logic for including it. People did live in the region, and a strong regional power could well have tried to gain their submission and claim the desert as part of their sphere of influence.
Bear in mind vast tracts of most regions in the game would have been impossible to actually control, except in a nominal sense, i.e. the ruling faction's claim being recognised by the other factions.
Then what about the Sahara you might ask.
Well, none of the factions depicted could or would claim sovereignity over it, realisticly. Arabia is different in that a faction controlling all the surrounding provinces would probably claim the interior as nominaly within its domain as well.
Also by occupying the chief town, Dumatha, the inhabitants of the whole terrirtory would effectively have to work with this faction; so in a sense the claim would be more than just imaginary.
Augila could be merged with Libye, or better yet Gaetulia with Sahara to make room.
Not bad.. I get a feeling that part of the reason it was disposed of was the fact that al-Najd (the area you're refering to) wasn't held by a single one of the major powers in 272BC.
but ya, I too miss Dumatha (they could have replaced it with Najran or al-yamamat)
but ya, I too miss Dumatha (they could have replaced it with Najran or al-yamamat)
Reason 1) It simply does not make sense to have this area under your control? I mean who's gonna police it, eh? "Well guys, today we're on patrol duty; erhm that is we're to cross the entire breadth of the desert and we better be careful or we won't get there." "-Tell me again, why did we join the army?!"
Reason 2) Now the AS and Ptolies don't come after Saba the instant they share a border; or rather vice versa. (In 0.8 the AS would conquer Dumatha and subsequently the Saby'n would attack it. In a matter of years the Saby'n would be wiped out; impaled on some nasty 6ft pikes.)
Reason 3) Now we get an extra province which is actually more useful and important. (Babylonia / Atiqa.)
Thus: everybody wins!
Reason 2) Now the AS and Ptolies don't come after Saba the instant they share a border; or rather vice versa. (In 0.8 the AS would conquer Dumatha and subsequently the Saby'n would attack it. In a matter of years the Saby'n would be wiped out; impaled on some nasty 6ft pikes.)
Reason 3) Now we get an extra province which is actually more useful and important. (Babylonia / Atiqa.)
Thus: everybody wins!
And when there was a town there, the AI would just march across the desert. Since there isn't a town there, the AI doesn't want to walk through someone else's territory and will walk around the edges of the Arabian desert, as they would have to have done historically.
Originally Posted by Ibrahim:
I too miss Dumatha
Im afraid we may be alone! You seem to know your Arab history, anything else from the books to support this province's inclusion?I too miss Dumatha
Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios:
Reason 1) It simply does not make sense to have this area under your control? I mean who's gonna police it, eh? "Well guys, today we're on patrol duty; erhm that is we're to cross the entire breadth of the desert and we better be careful or we won't get there." "-Tell me again, why did we join the army?!"
The same could be said for large areas of the map which are counted as being under a faction's control. As I said, ownership of territory, as represented on any map, is very often only a nominal claim.Reason 1) It simply does not make sense to have this area under your control? I mean who's gonna police it, eh? "Well guys, today we're on patrol duty; erhm that is we're to cross the entire breadth of the desert and we better be careful or we won't get there." "-Tell me again, why did we join the army?!"
Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios:
Reason 3) Now we get an extra province which is actually more useful and important. (Babylonia / Atiqa.)
True, but there are still some useless provinces on the map which we could swap for Dumatha. E.g. Augila, Gaetulia.Reason 3) Now we get an extra province which is actually more useful and important. (Babylonia / Atiqa.)
Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios:
Reason 2) Now the AS and Ptolies don't come after Saba the instant they share a border; or rather vice versa. (In 0.8 the AS would conquer Dumatha and subsequently the Saby'n would attack it. In a matter of years the Saby'n would be wiped out; impaled on some nasty 6ft pikes.)
Well the AS and Ptolies didn't ALWAYS attack Say'n, I remember many campaigns where they'd get bogged down fighting each other, and only one time when the Sabeans got impaled as you describe.Reason 2) Now the AS and Ptolies don't come after Saba the instant they share a border; or rather vice versa. (In 0.8 the AS would conquer Dumatha and subsequently the Saby'n would attack it. In a matter of years the Saby'n would be wiped out; impaled on some nasty 6ft pikes.)
Originally Posted by MarcusAureliusAntoninus:
And when there was a town there, the AI would just march across the desert. Since there isn't a town there, the AI doesn't want to walk through someone else's territory and will walk around the edges of the Arabian desert, as they would have to have done historically.
Can't argue with that. Except maybe to say that plenty of walking through deserts already goes on in the game, even though historically, naval transports would have been used.And when there was a town there, the AI would just march across the desert. Since there isn't a town there, the AI doesn't want to walk through someone else's territory and will walk around the edges of the Arabian desert, as they would have to have done historically.
Originally Posted by Jaywalker-Jack:
The same could be said for large areas of the map which are counted as being under a faction's control. As I said, ownership of territory, as represented on any map, is very often only a nominal claim.
Which areas of the map do you mean? Ownership usually represents possession of the major town or towns of the area. This gets iffy when an area is not urbanized, i.e. the steppe or too a lesser extent the German forests, but the factions that start there do not think in terms of towns or borders either. However, all factions in the Arabian area are urbanized.The same could be said for large areas of the map which are counted as being under a faction's control. As I said, ownership of territory, as represented on any map, is very often only a nominal claim.
Originally Posted by Jaywalker-Jack:
Well the AS and Ptolies didn't ALWAYS attack Say'n, I remember many campaigns where they'd get bogged down fighting each other, and only one time when the Sabeans got impaled as you describe.
True, but if you play the Sabaeans, the AS, the Ptolemies or both practically always come gunning for you. The A.I. is programmed to specifically target the player.Well the AS and Ptolies didn't ALWAYS attack Say'n, I remember many campaigns where they'd get bogged down fighting each other, and only one time when the Sabeans got impaled as you describe.
Originally Posted by Jaywalker-Jack:
Can't argue with that. Except maybe to say that plenty of walking through deserts already goes on in the game, even though historically, naval transports would have been used.
Again, could you specify where? There used to be major "sand wars" between Carthage and the Ptolemies, but changing the borders of the Sahara sorted that out.Can't argue with that. Except maybe to say that plenty of walking through deserts already goes on in the game, even though historically, naval transports would have been used.
Originally Posted by Ludens:
Which areas of the map do you mean? Ownership usually represents possession of the major town or towns of the area. This gets iffy when an area is not urbanized, i.e. the steppe or too a lesser extent the German forests
Those would be the best examples (along with mountainous regions), but in practice anywhere outside urban centres in any region is only under a government's authority in an imaginary sense, a nominal claim. Which areas of the map do you mean? Ownership usually represents possession of the major town or towns of the area. This gets iffy when an area is not urbanized, i.e. the steppe or too a lesser extent the German forests
Such a claim could be made over Arabia.
Originally Posted by Ludens:
True, but if you play the Sabaeans, the AS, the Ptolemies or both practically always come gunning for you. The A.I. is programmed to specifically target the player.
To this I say either grasp the challenge or turn down the dificulty!True, but if you play the Sabaeans, the AS, the Ptolemies or both practically always come gunning for you. The A.I. is programmed to specifically target the player.
Originally Posted by Ludens:
Again, could you specify where? There used to be major "sand wars" between Carthage and the Ptolemies, but changing the borders of the Sahara sorted that out.
My point is not just that movement through deserts is happening anyway, but all kinds of unrealistic maneouvering because the AI dosn't understand fleets. Not that it takes from the game or anything, it's just since that happens, what's so bad about AI armies crossing Arabia instead of taking the more realistic route along the coasts.Again, could you specify where? There used to be major "sand wars" between Carthage and the Ptolemies, but changing the borders of the Sahara sorted that out.
Go Makedonia!!!! one of the greatest factions un Europabarbarorum!!!!!
. In my current makedonia campaign, i have the AS confined to persia, and the ptolies are hiding deep in southern egypt, and the Sabyn constantly attack me, im guessing because i control what used to belong to those wanna-be heirs of megas alexandros called the Arche Seleukia and the Ptolemeias.
. In my current makedonia campaign, i have the AS confined to persia, and the ptolies are hiding deep in southern egypt, and the Sabyn constantly attack me, im guessing because i control what used to belong to those wanna-be heirs of megas alexandros called the Arche Seleukia and the Ptolemeias.Originally Posted by Jaywalker-Jack:
Not that it takes from the game or anything, it's just since that happens, what's so bad about AI armies crossing Arabia instead of taking the more realistic route along the coasts.
It kills off Saba way too fast ?Not that it takes from the game or anything, it's just since that happens, what's so bad about AI armies crossing Arabia instead of taking the more realistic route along the coasts.
Originally Posted by Jaywalker-Jack:
Those would be the best examples (along with mountainous regions), but in practice anywhere outside urban centres in any region is only under a government's authority in an imaginary sense, a nominal claim.
Such a claim could be made over Arabia.
It's not the same. In an urbanized area the towns officials can have a good idea what is going on in the countryside, and would be able to respond quickly to any uprising or bandit activity. They also tended to control the economy of the surrounding area. Authority can stretch beyond the location of your garrison, you know.Those would be the best examples (along with mountainous regions), but in practice anywhere outside urban centres in any region is only under a government's authority in an imaginary sense, a nominal claim.
Such a claim could be made over Arabia.
However, this does not apply to Arabia.
Originally Posted by Jaywalker-Jack:
My point is not just that movement through deserts is happening anyway, but all kinds of unrealistic maneouvering because the AI dosn't understand fleets. Not that it takes from the game or anything, it's just since that happens, what's so bad about AI armies crossing Arabia instead of taking the more realistic route along the coasts.
EB is a realism mod, and although inherently limited by the R:TW engine and videogame conventions in general, it does strive to give an as accurate representation of history as possible. Armies marching straight to desert into hostile territory do not fit in that picture, and can be avoided (to a degree). Retarded strategic A.I. unfortunately cannot.My point is not just that movement through deserts is happening anyway, but all kinds of unrealistic maneouvering because the AI dosn't understand fleets. Not that it takes from the game or anything, it's just since that happens, what's so bad about AI armies crossing Arabia instead of taking the more realistic route along the coasts.
Originally Posted by Jaywalker-Jack:
Im afraid we may be alone! You seem to know your Arab history, anything else from the books to support this province's inclusion?
The same could be said for large areas of the map which are counted as being under a faction's control. As I said, ownership of territory, as represented on any map, is very often only a nominal claim.
True, but there are still some useless provinces on the map which we could swap for Dumatha. E.g. Augila, Gaetulia.
Well the AS and Ptolies didn't ALWAYS attack Say'n, I remember many campaigns where they'd get bogged down fighting each other, and only one time when the Sabeans got impaled as you describe.
Can't argue with that. Except maybe to say that plenty of walking through deserts already goes on in the game, even though historically, naval transports would have been used.
I said I too miss dumatha(out of sentimentality); I actually have to agree with the others (remember when I said that najd was never conquered? sorry!Im afraid we may be alone! You seem to know your Arab history, anything else from the books to support this province's inclusion?
The same could be said for large areas of the map which are counted as being under a faction's control. As I said, ownership of territory, as represented on any map, is very often only a nominal claim.
True, but there are still some useless provinces on the map which we could swap for Dumatha. E.g. Augila, Gaetulia.
Well the AS and Ptolies didn't ALWAYS attack Say'n, I remember many campaigns where they'd get bogged down fighting each other, and only one time when the Sabeans got impaled as you describe.
Can't argue with that. Except maybe to say that plenty of walking through deserts already goes on in the game, even though historically, naval transports would have been used.
the part where I mention Al-Yamammat and Najran has to do with the fact that it would simulate the pain in the rear time the Saba'iyyin had to survive, plus himyar.I forgot: armies can march through, on thse conditions:
1-Go via Al-Hijaz
2-say bye-bye to horses for transport-say hello to camel corps
3-several towns are within a day to 3 days march from one another in Al-hijaz, and most are very fertile, and have large water wells
4-if your not a local: march in the spring or Autumn-try not to march in winter (flash flood hazard), or summer (obvious)
5-ditch all/most body armor
1-Go via Al-Hijaz
2-say bye-bye to horses for transport-say hello to camel corps
3-several towns are within a day to 3 days march from one another in Al-hijaz, and most are very fertile, and have large water wells
4-if your not a local: march in the spring or Autumn-try not to march in winter (flash flood hazard), or summer (obvious)
5-ditch all/most body armor
What is it with people's fascination with the most oddest of things?
We removed Dumatha and put in Babylon instead. For what reason someone would want to go back is beyond me.
Babylon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dumatha
Babylon FTW!!1!
We removed Dumatha and put in Babylon instead. For what reason someone would want to go back is beyond me.
Babylon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dumatha
Babylon FTW!!1!
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