Page 31 of 37 FirstFirst ... 21272829303132333435 ... LastLast
Results 901 to 930 of 1099

Thread: POTUS/General Election Thread 2020 + Aftermath

  1. #901
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Is this standard OP when a mob wants to get into government buildings?

    https://twitter.com/asthehosptuRNs/s...16679791091712

    In case the tweet is deleted, a side door is opened, and as the rioters move in, you can see a number of police officers standing aside.

  2. #902

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    Hopefully this doesn't go unnoticed:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/06/u...a-capitol.html



    Independent member of the media? Right-o Derrick...and I've got some ocean-front property in Montana I'd like to sell...



    As another example of duplicity, look at the videos of people streaming out the doors when order was being restored. Not a single one of them was expecting to be accosted by law enforcement. Just a leisurely stroll through Congress on a Wednesday afternoon.
    West Virginia, huh?

    https://twitter.com/BNONews/status/1347630360297938945 [VIDEO]

    BREAKING: West Virginia lawmaker Derrick Evans, who livestreamed himself entering the U.S. Capitol, has been arrested by the FBI
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  3. #903
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Fortress
    Posts
    11,852

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    In the event this revolt was so disorganized and ill-prepared that the suitable level of escalation (which could have been expected to end the event very quickly) was to blanket the crowd in tear gas before they reached the doors of the Capitol. But they intended and attempted not just to install Trump but to remove the entire democratic (and Democratic) federal government, which we now understand the local security services halfway allowed, if not encouraged, them to do; had they been a little better organized, better armed, more determined, a little more successful, it would have become immediately obligatory to kill as many of them as dynamically necessary to neutralize the opposition. And they're still out there, promising to return.
    I saw some national security experts say something similar. This could have been a lot worse. They also speculated that there might have been classified information taken from some of the offices.

    Resolve to nip the cycle in the bud - aggressively. If they return on the 20th, either do what it takes to secure the premises and maintain control, or shoot to kill. This isn't a game.
    I was thinking about attending the inauguration but now Im not so sure.

    Also re: impeachment, likely wont have the time to do it as detailed here. In short, the Senate is out of session until right after the inauguration, and they can only be brought back to do business by unanimous consent, which they probably wont get.
    On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
    Visited:
    A man who casts no shadow has no soul.
    Hvil i fred HoreTore

  4. #904
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Fortress
    Posts
    11,852

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Twitter bans Trump permanently. And Apple has given Parler 24 hours to start moderating its content or it will be banned from the App Store.

    On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
    Visited:
    A man who casts no shadow has no soul.
    Hvil i fred HoreTore

  5. #905
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Fortress of the Mountains
    Posts
    11,389

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    12 days in which many politicians on both sides will count down to the second. Pelosi apparently requested a top-level meeting with top-level Pentagon brass.
    Ja mata, TosaInu. You will forever be remembered.

    Proud

    Been to:

    Swords Made of Letters - 1938. The war is looming in France - and Alexandre Reythier does not have much time left to protect his country. A novel set before the war.

    A Painted Shield of Honour - 1313. Templar Knights in France are in grave danger. Can they be saved?

  6. #906
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Fortress
    Posts
    11,852

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    Pelosi apparently requested a top-level meeting with top-level Pentagon brass.
    Yes, among the things she talked about with them was the issue of nuclear launch authority. Which unfortunately Trump still has sole command over as long as he is president. I do wonder if this will be something that will be addressed in the coming session too, because having all this authority laid on one person is probably too much.
    On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
    Visited:
    A man who casts no shadow has no soul.
    Hvil i fred HoreTore

  7. #907
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ukraine
    Posts
    4,010

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Crandar View Post
    Did I get mad that the Greek army was expelled from Istanbul and Anatolia? No, in fact, I'm glad that our invasion and attempted annexation of foreign lands failed, which also renders me less vulnerable to jabs at national sensitivities.
    There is a whole world of difference between "invasion and attempted annexation of foreign lands" and protection of one's own integrity.

    But in general, I take it that any sensitive issues and tragic events are allowed to be mocked at on this forum, including holocaust, massacres, racist lynchings, gas chambers and so on.
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 01-09-2021 at 15:40.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  8. #908
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Fortress of the Mountains
    Posts
    11,389

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    But in general, I take it that any sensitive issues and tragic events are allowed to be mocked at on this forum, including holocaust, massacres, racist lynchings, gas chambers and so on.
    Of course not. Denying such events is a rather quick trip to Cooldown Town but there's also a fine line about mocking such events.

    I personally do not like it, I find it distasteful and wrong towards the memory of those who were wronged, but keep in mind there is also dark humour, which in many cases was a coping mechanism. Case by case basis.
    Ja mata, TosaInu. You will forever be remembered.

    Proud

    Been to:

    Swords Made of Letters - 1938. The war is looming in France - and Alexandre Reythier does not have much time left to protect his country. A novel set before the war.

    A Painted Shield of Honour - 1313. Templar Knights in France are in grave danger. Can they be saved?

  9. #909
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Fortress
    Posts
    11,852

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    If anyone is interested, George Washington University set up an online database detailing everyone who has been charged so far in the Capitol riots.
    On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
    Visited:
    A man who casts no shadow has no soul.
    Hvil i fred HoreTore

  10. #910
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,483

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Not sure this is going anywhere:

    https://beta.documentcloud.org/docum...rturn-election

    On the one hand, doing nothing encourages more of the same type of behavior from these seditionists, but dwelling too long on the subject seems like a witch-hunt. Certainly Mo Brooks (AL) should come under scrutiny for this horse-shit:

    https://theintercept.com/2021/01/07/...can-mo-brooks/

    Rep. Mo Brooks, R-Ala., one of the most outspoken lawmakers in support of Donald Trump’s false claim that the presidential election was stolen, floated the possibility of violence as a reasonable form of political resistance while speaking on local Alabama talk radio today. [note: this was a day AFTER the 6 Jan debacle]
    Brooks was one of the featured speakers at the rally and had more to say about it:

    On the radio, Brooks defended his participation in the rally the previous day, baselessly charged that there was “mounting evidence of fascist antifa’s involvement in all of this,” and said that those involved in storming Congress should be prosecuted.

    The inflammatory rhetoric suggests the Alabama lawmaker has little interest in stepping back from his rhetoric earlier this week. Brooks opened the “Save America” rally with a searing speech that charged, “Today is the day American patriots start taking down names and kicking ass.”

    During his remarks, he asked the crowd to consider the American ancestors who sacrificed their blood and “sometimes their lives” to create the “greatest nation in world history.” “So I have a question for you,” Brooks continued. “Are you willing to do the same?”

    Republicans who would not support the effort to decertify Electoral College votes for President-elect Joe Biden also received scorn. “America does not need and cannot stand and cannot tolerate anymore weakling, cowering, wimpy Republican congressmen and senators,” yelled Brooks at the rally.
    If Papa Don gets deserved condemnation for incentivizing the crowd, then this seditionist should get the same.

    I take it that any sensitive issues and tragic events are allowed to be mocked at on this forum, including holocaust, massacres, racist lynchings, gas chambers and so on
    I'm not aware of any members here that are neo-nazi, or extreme right-wing racists....
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 01-09-2021 at 21:47.
    High Plains Drifter

  11. #911

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Not the typical 538 feature:
    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...er-in-america/

    In a famous essay from 1958 on the topic, entitled “Race Prejudice as a Sense of Group Position,” Herbert Blumer, a noted sociologist, wrote the following:

    There are four basic types of feeling that seem to be always present in race prejudice in the dominant group. They are (1) a feeling of superiority, (2) a feeling that the subordinate race is intrinsically different and alien, (3) a feeling of proprietary claim to certain areas of privilege and advantage, and (4) a fear and suspicion that the subordinate race harbors designs on the prerogatives of the dominant race.
    [...]

    And most recently, Larry Bartels, a renowned scholar of American politics at Vanderbilt University, wrote the following in his research focused on the erosion of Republicans’ commitment to democracy:

    The support expressed by many Republicans for violations of a variety of crucial democratic norms is primarily attributable not to partisan affect, enthusiasm for President Trump, political cynicism, economic conservatism, or general cultural conservatism, but to what I have termed ethnic antagonism. The single survey item with the highest average correlation with antidemocratic sentiments is not a measure of attitudes toward Trump, but an item inviting respondents to agree that “discrimination against whites is as big a problem today as discrimination against blacks and other minorities.” Not far behind are items positing that “things have changed so much that I often feel like a stranger in my own country,” that immigrants get more than their fair share of government resources, that people on welfare often have it better than those who work for a living, that speaking English is “essential for being a true American,” and that African-Americans “need to stop using racism as an excuse.”
    To summarize Bartels’s claims, white Republicans who have come to oppose democracy do so, in part, because they don’t like those whom they believe democracy serves. And, more than that, they believe that the interests of nonwhite Americans have been given priority over the interests of their racial group. Many white Americans seem to be asking themselves, Why act in defense of a democracy that benefits “those people”?
    For those who broke glass in windows of the Capitol, who marched in opposition to American democracy, who held up as a model the seditious behaviors of slaveholding states, who threatened the lives of elected officials and caused chaos that lays bare the dangerous situation we are in as a country — these are not political protesters asking their government for a redress of grievances. Nor are they patriots whose actions should be countenanced in a society governed by the rule of law.

    Instead, we must characterize them as they are: They are a dangerous mob of grievous white people worried that their position in the status hierarchy is threatened by a multiracial coalition of Americans who brought Biden to power and defeated Trump, whom back in 2017 Ta-Nehisi Coates called the first white president. Making this provocative point, Coates wrote, “It is often said that Trump has no real ideology, which is not true — his ideology is white supremacy, in all its truculent and sanctimonious power.” So, when we think about those who gathered in Washington, D.C., on Wednesday and who will surely continue their advance in opposition to democratic rule, let it not be lost on us that they do not simply come in defense of Donald Trump. They come in defense of white supremacy.
    More and more pieces have been written to this effect over the past 3 years.


    Reminder:

    On January 20, 2017, the day of Trump's inauguration, police kettled 217 anti-Trump protesters in the freezing cold and arrested them after sixteen hours.

    Prosecutors then tried to put them in prison for 70+ years, on the accusation that all of them collectively broke a window.


    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    It's not going anywhere (neither are 25th Am or impeachment solutions), but it's within her progressive ambit to put it into the discourse. I'm fine with her doing so.

    Certainly Mo Brooks (AL) should come under scrutiny for this horse-shit:
    Now, an appropriate response would be "Death to fascism, freedom to the people", but I recognize it as a more problematic token for elected officials of the Dem party to submit.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Member thankful for this post:



  12. #912
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Fortress
    Posts
    11,852

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Troubling info coming from a couple of African-American USCP officers:

    BuzzFeed News spoke to two Black officers who described a harrowing day in which they were forced to endure racist abuse — including repeatedly being called the n-word — as they tried to do their job of protecting the Capitol building, and by extension the very functioning of American democracy. The officers said they were wrong footed, fighting off an invading force that their managers had downplayed, and not prepared them for. They had all been issued gas masks, for example, but management didn’t tell them to bring them in on the day. Capitol Police did not respond to BuzzFeed News’s request for comment about the allegations made by officers.

    While some of the images from that day appeared to show officers standing by to let the mob into the Capitol building, the veteran officer said that they had fought them off for two hours before the attackers eventually gained access. The officer said that many of the widely spread images of smiling marauders, wandering the halls dressed in absurd costumes, had the effect of downplaying how well prepared some of the rioters were to overtake the building, and even to capture and kill Congress members.

    “That was a heavily trained group of militia terrorists that attacked us,” said the officer, who has been with the department for more than a decade. “They had radios, we found them, they had two-way communicators and earpieces. They had bear spray. They had flash bangs ... They were prepared. They strategically put two IEDs, pipe bombs in two different locations. These guys were military trained. A lot of them were former military,” the veteran said, referring to two suspected pipe bombs that were found outside the headquarters of the Democratic National Committee and the Republican National Committee.

    The officer even described coming face to face with police officers from across the country in the mob. He said some of them flashed the badges, telling him to let them through, and trying to explain that this was all part of a movement that was supposed to help.

    “You have the nerve to be holding a blue lives matter flag, and you are out there fucking us up,” he told one group of protestors he encountered inside the Capitol. “[One guy] pulled out his badge and he said, ‘we’re doing this for you.’ Another guy had his badge. So I was like, ‘well, you gotta be kidding.’”

    ....

    At the end of the night, after the crowds had been dispersed and Congress got back to the business of certifying president-elect Joe Biden’s victory, the veteran officer was overwhelmed with emotion, and broke down in the rotunda.

    “I sat down with one of my buddies, another Black guy, and tears just started streaming down my face,” he said. “I said, ‘what the fuck, man? Is this America? What the fuck just happened? I’m so sick and tired of this shit.’”

    Soon he was screaming, so that everyone in the rotunda, including his white colleagues, could hear what he had just gone through.

    “These are racist ass terrorists,” he yelled out.

    In the seven years since Black Lives Matter has become a rallying cry, the image of a white cop, deciding how and when to enforce law and order, has become ubiquitous. On Wednesday, Americans saw something different, as Black officers tried to do the same, as they attempted to protect the very heart of American democracy. And instead of being honored by the supporters of a man who likes to call himself the “law and order” president, Black Capitol officers found themselves under attack.

    “I got called a nigger 15 times today,” the veteran officer shouted in the rotunda to no one in particular. “Trump did this and we got all of these fucking people in our department that voted for him. How the fuck can you support him?”

    “I cried for about 15 minutes and I just let it out.”
    This is really heartbreaking. Im usually not in favor of purges, but I think one might be in order here. And for the Secret Service.
    On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
    Visited:
    A man who casts no shadow has no soul.
    Hvil i fred HoreTore

    Member thankful for this post:



  13. #913
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ukraine
    Posts
    4,010

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  14. #914
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,483

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Why am I not surprised?
    There were all kinds of references to foreign nations on display, besides Russia. Flags from India, Romania, and Australia were seen. Far and away the biggest "conspiracy" theory by some conservative lawmakers and right-wing media is trying to place the blame on....wait for it.....Antifa!

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/media...-sean-hannity/

    The desire to tease a forumer and a total lack of decency will do
    I hardly think that teasing this unnamed "forumer" is even in the same universe as the "holocaust, massacres, racist lynchings, gas chambers."
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 01-10-2021 at 14:09.
    High Plains Drifter

  15. #915
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Fortress
    Posts
    11,852

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Guys, lets keep it focused on the main topic at hand and not venture into Ukraine issues. There is another thread you can discuss this in.
    On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
    Visited:
    A man who casts no shadow has no soul.
    Hvil i fred HoreTore

    Member thankful for this post:



  16. #916
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Is it wrong to feel Schadenfreude at seeing the rioters treated as personae non gratae by the general public and businesses? No fly list, rioters fired by their employers, non-brown skinned people called terrorists to their face, etc. It's usually the left who are accused of lack of patriotism.

  17. #917
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Fortress
    Posts
    11,852

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Is it wrong to feel Schadenfreude at seeing the rioters treated as personae non gratae by the general public and businesses? No fly list, rioters fired by their employers, non-brown skinned people called terrorists to their face, etc. It's usually the left who are accused of lack of patriotism.
    I dont think so. These people ran amok with glee as they committed sedition. Now that some of them are starting to see them get their just deserts, it is ok to be happy.

    Meanwhile someone retweeted Michael Cohen's testimony from early 2019. Sadly prescient:
    Given my experience working for Mr. Trump, I fear that if he loses the election in 2020, that there will never be a peaceful transition of power.
    On the Congressional front, Dems are moving forward with impeachment, starting with a 25th Amendment vote on Monday. I have no idea why they are saying that the unanimous consent vote will be Monday, and then a full vote on Tuesday should it fail. Seems to be a stalling tactic and I disagree vehemently. Can't say that "we will act with urgency" and then spend an extra day doing something thats pointless. Ugh.
    Last edited by Hooahguy; 01-11-2021 at 03:02.
    On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
    Visited:
    A man who casts no shadow has no soul.
    Hvil i fred HoreTore

    Member thankful for this post:



  18. #918
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooahguy View Post
    I dont think so. These people ran amok with glee as they committed sedition. Now that some of them are starting to see them get their just deserts, it is ok to be happy.

    Meanwhile someone retweeted Michael Cohen's testimony from early 2019. Sadly prescient:


    On the Congressional front, Dems are moving forward with impeachment, starting with a 24th Amendment vote on Monday. I have no idea why they are saying that the unanimous consent vote will be Monday, and then a full vote on Tuesday should it fail. Seems to be a stalling tactic and I disagree vehemently. Can't say that "we will act with urgency" and then spend an extra day doing something thats pointless. Ugh.
    Poll tax?

  19. #919
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Fortress
    Posts
    11,852

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Oops sorry, meant the 25th.
    On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
    Visited:
    A man who casts no shadow has no soul.
    Hvil i fred HoreTore

  20. #920
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooahguy View Post
    Oops sorry, meant the 25th.
    Can never tell with legal interpretations of various amendments. One of the amendments says that troops should not be quartered on the population, something which sounds archaic, but which apparently has other legal meanings in the modern world.

  21. #921
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Fortress
    Posts
    11,852

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Also should make note that Pelosi brought up Section 3 of the 14th Amendment, which allows for the expulsion of any elected official who engaged in insurrection. Apparently it only requires a simple majority to do so. I could definitely see GOP reps Mo Brooks, Boebert, and Greene being expelled at the very least.
    Last edited by Hooahguy; 01-11-2021 at 05:41.
    On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
    Visited:
    A man who casts no shadow has no soul.
    Hvil i fred HoreTore

  22. #922

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    The ivory tower terminological debate over whether America has been experiencing a coup attempt verges on sterile, but this intellectual examination covers all the bases so well that I'm reprinting it in whole:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Paul Musgrave argues that the effort to prevent Congress from declaring Biden the next president was, in fact, a coup.

    As I write this a few hours later, rioters incited by President Donald Trump have stormed the Capitol building. Both the House and the Senate have suspended their counting because of security threats. Reportedly, shots have been fired. A photograph of a rioter occupying the House speaker’s chair shows that the Capitol is, essentially, being occupied. C-SPAN is reporting that senior members of leadership of the legislative branch are being held in an “undisclosed location.” Reporters are refusing to divulge their locations on the grounds—entirely reasonable—that doing so could endanger their safety. The National Guard has been deployed.

    It’s undeniable at this point. The United States is witnessing a coup attempt—a forceful effort to seize power against the legal framework. The president has caused the interruption of the process that would certify his removal from office. The mechanics of constitutional government have been suspended. Americans are in danger of losing constitutional government to a degree unmatched even during the Civil War, a period when secession itself did not postpone either the holding of elections or the transition of power between presidents.
    For Musgrave, the unwillingness of many to call it a coup reflects a worrying tendency to downplay threats to U.S. democracy – a tendency that’s contributed to U.S. democratic erosion. On the academic side, this blindness stems from methodological exceptionalism.

    Mostly, though, the optimists’ reluctance to see what’s in front of their faces has had less to do with scholarly integrity and more to do with wish-casting—making predictions because you want them to be true, not because the evidence supports it. For U.S. political scientists, coups and paramilitary political forces are axiomatically things that happen out there.

    Their study fits in the mainstream of comparative politics, which studies foreigners, not U.S. politics (except for the small tribe of specialists in U.S. political development, who are well aware of the history of violence in the country’s political history). Until Wednesday, Americanists modeled what election outcomes would be, not whether their results would matter—those questions mattered for others.
    Musgrave’s argument has generated significant pushback on various platforms. Naunihal Singh, in both an interview at Foreign Policy and a piece at The Monkey Cage, argues that what happened on January 6th was definitely not a coup.

    In the interview, Singh argues that:

    I think it’s extremely telling that the violence we’re seeing is coming from street protesters whom Trump has incited. This is the president of the United States. He is the most powerful man in the world, in quotes. And yet he’s not using any of his official authorities. He’s using his bully pulpit to stir up what is a poorly organized ragtag bunch of protesters who are being treated with kid gloves in a way that peaceful protesters in Portland, in D.C., and all over the nation were not treated last summer. In fact, if the D.C. police or the National Guard had treated this bunch of protesters the way they treated any of the Black Lives Matters protesters, they would never have been allowed to breach the first perimeter, let alone get into the Senate building. There are two reasons they’re being treated with kid gloves. One is that they are affiliated with the president, so they have some political protection. The other is that the protesters have, for a long time, styled themselves as Blue Lives Matter supporters, so law enforcement may have been hesitant to use force against them.

    In neither case is this actually a threat to the Republic. But, look, whether or not force was used, the president engaged in an illegitimate, immoral, and probably illegal attempt to grab power [emphasis added].
    While there are ways in which the insurrectionists did get easy treatment, some of these claims show their age. Much of this argument derives from snippets of video that appeared on social media during the day. Longer videos, as well as efforts by reporters to piece together events, make clear that the Capital Police were simply overwhelmed. Moreover, as numerous posts at LGM have highlighted, it looks pretty clear that some of the insurrectionists sought to capture – and even execute – high-ranking U.S. government officials.

    In his article, Singh writes that:

    Although scholars differ in how they define coup attempts, most definitions have a common core of agreed-upon conditions. In my book, “Seizing Power,” I define a coup attempt as an explicit action, involving some portion of the state military, police or security forces, undertaken with intent to overthrow the government.

    What occurred on Wednesday meets some — but not all — of the conditions to be a coup attempt. Efforts to block the transfer of power to the legitimate victor of an election meet the intent portion of the definition, even if the person who is overthrowing the government is also the incumbent. But the raid on the nation’s capital in this instance was committed by a mob, not the country’s own armed forces. It is the involvement of state security forces that critically separates a coup attempt from an assassination, an invasion, an insurrection or a civil war.

    What occurred is better described as an insurrection, since it was a violent uprising by citizens against the government. Those bearing arms were civilians, members of the public. This is different from a coup, where a branch of the government uses state forces to attempt to seize power — and this distinction matters.
    Singh draws an analogy:

    A coup is like being robbed at gunpoint. But Trump’s attempt to convince Brad Raffensperger, the Georgia secretary of state, to “find” enough votes to overturn his defeat was more like a swindle, with Trump attempting to talk Raffensperger into handing over his wallet. The attack on the U.S. Capitol was more forceful, yet still different from a coup, more like somebody grabbing your wallet. All three are forms of theft, but the forms are very different, and the responses differ accordingly.
    I agree that each crime involves a different modus operandi, but I don’t get the analogy. If we follow Singh’s definition, what differentiates a military coup from a civilian insurrection has nothing do with with the level of force involved; which category applies depends entirely on the actors. Provincial rebellions may easily bring more force to the table than a handful of colonels.

    Perhaps Singh intends for the analogy to only illustrate how the same outcome can be generated by three distinctive processes. So why does it matter, then?

    Calling something a coup attempt turns our attention toward the state. But what is striking about Trump’s behavior is that he is acting as if he is a private citizen rather than president of the United States. He is stirring up protesters, but not using state security forces; he is attempting to wheedle Raffensperger into committing electoral fraud but not — other than vaguely threatening Raffensperger with criminal consequences — using state authority to coerce Raffensperger into doing so.

    Trump is able to engage in these anti-democratic actions because of the people who are voluntarily supporting him — not because he is the commander in chief.
    But the president is not a private citizen; his call for his supporters to march on the Capitol and help keep him in power is obviously inflected by his authority and his prerogatives.

    This is really no different than if Trump ordered the military to occupy the Capitol and arrest members of the legislative branch. Military officers don’t have a chip in their head that makes them compelled to obey his orders; they have every right to resist an illegal order. This is why ten former Secretaries of Defense signed an open letter urging the military not to intervene in a disputed election: to warn the military not to participate in any attempt by the president to mount a coup.

    Indeed, Rob noted yesterday that “if the military disobeyed a lawful order from the President to launch nuclear weapons (and there’s almost no question, under existing US law, that such an order would be lawful) then it would in effect constitute a military coup.” What would make such an assurance to Pelosi a coup is precisely the fact that nether Speaker Pelosi nor General Milley have the legal authority to interdict such an order. We don’t call Muammar Gaddafi’s seizure of power in Libya a “coup” because overthrowing the government was within his authority.

    Okay, but what substantive difference does it make?

    Those who want to prevent insurrection could respond in a number of ways. One path, taken by Twitter and Facebook, was to suspend Trump’s account, thus taking away his megaphone at a time when his remarks might whip up violence.
    If Trump were calling on the military to seize the Capitol then taking away his megaphone would also be a good idea. He still needs to communicate with supporters, whether they’re in uniform or in civilian clothes.

    Another approach is to make it clear to the other politicians who are helping him undermine democracy that there is no return to respectability or business as usual afterward. Would they choose opportunistic behavior in the moment if they knew they would pay the cost of being associated with a rejection of democracy for the rest of their lives? Would they undercut democracy if it shut the door to lucrative employment as a lobbyist? Would they be willing to be shunned socially for decades?
    Change “other politicians” to “military personnel” or “internal security services” or whatever and this paragraph still makes sense.

    The point is not the specifics of the response, but rather that the diagnosis suggests an analysis and an appropriate reaction. Compared to a coup, an insurrection involves a different set of people, communication is used differently, the role of the police is different, and the remedies are different. The terminology matters because it illuminates the dynamics of this event and how they are different from other kinds of events.
    Singh presumably would consider all the following examples of attempted coups if they happened in the USSR in the 1987:

    The NVD, in whole or in part and either at the behest of the General Secretary of the Communist Party or against him, tries to seize control of Moscow
    The KGB – in whole or in part and either at the behest of the General Secretary of the Communist Party or against him – tries to seize control of Moscow; and
    The Red Army – in whole or in part and either at the behest of the General Secretary of the Communist Party or against him – tries to seize control of Moscow.
    Each of these would entail different sets of people, uses of communication, roles for the police, and remedies. The disposition of the overall KGB would matter not only in each of these scenarios, but also if civilians acted as the primary ‘troops’ of an attempted seizure of power.

    Singh maintains that the events of January 6th amounted to an insurrection rather than a coup. I’m not entirely sure about the basis of the distinction. In U.S. law, “rebellion and insurrection refer specifically to acts of violence against the state or its officers.”

    Since all of Singh’s coups involve the threat of violence, they would all seem to also constitute insurrections. That is, Singh’s “coup” is a specific type of insurrection, one involving at least one of the state’s security services.

    This isn’t a problem per se for Singh, but it does suggest some analytic issues. Singh’s substantive objection to referring to January 6th as a coup attempt is, in essence, that insurrections involving a state’s own security services are not comparable to insurrections that don’t involve a state’s security services. While I’m not persuaded by the specific examples Singh provides, I do think that his argument makes some degree of sense.

    However, are the events of January 6th more comparable to non-coup insurrections? Ceteris paribus, I don’t see how we learn more about January 6th by placing it in the same pot as the FMLN insurgency in El Salvador, the Greek Civil War, and the Indian Rebellion of 1857 than by placing it in the same pot as Operation Rubicon.

    Why, then, is the relevant distinction between “coup” and “insurrection”? We can solve Singh’s concerns just as easily by distinguishing between kinds of coups. Maybe coups that involve the security services constitute one cluster of coups, while those that don’t constitute another. Some of examples of both kinds would take the form of self-coups, others would not.

    Should we adopt Singh’s nomenclature or something like I’ve just suggested? I’m not sure. But we can’t choose between the two options based on the criteria Singh has offered. Both preserve a distinction between, on the one hand, what happened on January 6th and, on the other hand, attempts to overthrow governments that involve some slice of their security services.

    If this weren’t already getting too long, I’d turn to a discussion of the various dynamics that drive stability and change in social-scientific concepts. In its absence, I’ll just make a few claims about their implications:

    The way that social scientists define a concept – or even that a social-scientific field defines a term – is not inherently better than alternatives.
    The considerations that lead us to settle on specific definitions may not be decisive, or even relevant, in different contexts.
    There’s often less consensus about the precise meaning of concepts than we like to imply.
    Disputes about the meaning of concepts can reflect substantive disagreements about how to do social science, and these often – for good reasons – reman implicit when we argue about definitions in public-facing contexts.
    So what do I think? To the extent that it matters, my own view is closer to Musgrave’s and overlaps with Zeynep Tufekci’s:

    In Turkish, we do have many different words for different types of coups, because our experience similarly demands it. For example, coups that are attempted through threatening letters from the military are called memorandum coups. A 2007 attempt is commonly referred to as the “e-coup” because the threatening letter from the military was first posted on the internet. (The one before that, in 1997, is often referred to as a “postmodern” or “soft” coup.) We know the difference between military coups that start from the top and follow the military chain of command and those that do not. The term autogolpe comes from the Spanish partly because there have been so many such attempts in Latin America.

    The U.S. president is trying to steal the election, and, crucially, his party either tacitly approves or is pretending not to see it. This is a particularly dangerous combination, and makes it much more than just typical Trumpian bluster or norm shattering.

    Maybe in other languages, from places with more experience with this particular type of power grab, we’d be better able to discuss the subtleties of this effort, to distinguish the postelection intervention from the Election Day injustices, to separate the legal but frivolous from the outright lawless, and to understand why his party’s reaction—lack of reaction—is not just about wanting to conclude an embarrassing presidency with minimal fanfare. But in English, only one widely understood word captures what Donald Trump is trying to do, even though his acts do not meet its technical definition. Trump is attempting to stage some kind of coup, one that is embedded in a broader and ongoing power grab.

    And if that’s hard to recognize, this might be your first.

    IMHO:

    Coups are (ex ante) extralegal appropriations of authority by an actor within, or by part of, a government from another.

    Notice that, for me, the defining characteristic of coups is neither the employment of violence nor which part of the government is implicated in the usurpation of authority: if the Speaker of the House appropriates presidential authority with respect to the military, that’s a coup; if Al Haig really had tried to jump the line of succession, then he attempted a coup; if the president incites a mob to force Congress to declare him the victor of an election, then that’s a coup; and if the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff deploys the military to declare himself Supreme Executive, then we’re looking at a coup.

    What makes coups ‘special’ is their internal character; they involve struggles among incumbents – sometimes specific actors, sometimes bureaucratic divisions, sometimes branches – over the distribution of authority within a government.

    We can handle the rest by attaching adjectives.

    But realize that I come from a social-scientific tradition that thinks what’s in the arrows is more important than what’s in the boxes. For me, Charles Tilly’s observation about social-scientific explanation and revolutions applies:

    I am arguing that regularities in political life are very broad, indeed transhistorical, but do not operate in the form of recurrent structures and processes at a large scale. They consist of recurrent causes which in different circumstances and sequences compound into highly variable but nonetheless explicable effects. Students of revolution have imagined they were dealing with phenomena like ocean tides, whose regularities they could deduce from sufficient knowledge of celestial motion, when they were actually confronting phenomena like great floods, equally coherent occurrences from a causal perspective, but enormously variable in structure, sequence, and consequences as a function of terrain, previous precipitation, built environment, and human response.

    For hydrologists, a flood is a wave of water that passes through a basin; a severe flood is one in which a considerable share of the water overflows the basin’s perimeter. For our purposes, the equations hydrologists use to compute water flow in floods have three revealing characteristics: they reduce floods to special cases of water flow within basins rather than making them sui generis, their results depend heavily on the hydrologist’s delineation of the basin, while estimation of the flood’s parameters requires extensive empirical knowledge of that basin. Yet the equations embody very general principles, the physics of incompressible fluids in open channels (Bras 1990, pp. 478-82).

    Note several implications of the analogy. First, every instance of the phenomenon – flood or revolution – differs from every other one; the test of a good theory is therefore not so much to identify similarities among instances as to account systematically and parsimoniously for their variation. Second, in different combinations, circumstances, and sequences, the same causes that produce floods or revolutions also produce a number of adjacent phenomena: smoothly flowing rivers and stagnant swamps on the one side, coups d’etat and guerrilla warfare on the other. Third, time, place, and sequence strongly influence how the relevant processes unfold; in that sense, they have an inescapably historical character. Finally, the events in question are far from self motivating experiences of self-contained structures; they are local manifestations of fluxes extending far beyond their own perimeters. Floods and revolutions have no natural boundaries; observers draw lines around them for their own analytic convenience. In these regards, they resemble a number of other complex but lawful phenomena: traffic jams, earthquakes, segmented labor markets, forest fires, and many more. I suppose, indeed, that most interesting social phenomena have exactly these characteristics
    Thus, it doesn’t trouble me if the category “coup” expands beyond the participation of the security services; I’m happy to make the participation of security services a source of variation rather than a defining feature of coups. But it’s also totally understandable why other scholars would prefer narrower, more precise definitions that mandate a greater number of shared attributes.

    So should we call January 6th an attempted coup – or, more properly, one part of an unfolding effort by Trump to mount a successful coup? I don’t think the question of causation is all that important. Most of the debate over whether to call it a coup isn’t about coup-proofing. It’s basically normative and political in character: what label for Trump’s actions – and those of his mob – best captures their degree of illegitimacy?

    To be honest, I don’t see a lot of difference between “coup” and “insurrection” here.

    The major disadvantage of “insurrection,” I suppose, is that it makes Trump’s role one of “inciter” or “fomenter.” This places him one step away from the action itself. It also locates his conduct in the murky domain of where freedom of speech ends and criminal incitement begins. Saying that he attempted a coup, however, removes any such complications.

    The advantages of “incitement of insurrection” are that it’s a defined legal offense and that it’ll be the grounds for impeachment.


    TLDR:
    Coups are (ex ante) extralegal appropriations of authority by an actor within, or by part of, a government from another. ...What makes coups ‘special’ is their internal character; they involve struggles among incumbents – sometimes specific actors, sometimes bureaucratic divisions, sometimes branches – over the distribution of authority within a government. We can handle the rest by attaching adjectives.
    Also, here it is good to recall other, smaller-scale coups or attempts in American history, particularly those that occurred in the wake of the Civil War, such as Wilmington 1898 and the Indianapolis Treason/Northwestern Conspiracy. The former in particular was essentially the same kind of operation as we saw on Jan. 6, except totally successful.




    Meanwhile, an update on the two House races that are still unresolved, some of the closest in American history:

    New York:
    https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/bi...ded-ny-22-race
    https://www.wicz.com/story/43146249/...-ny22-election

    Iowa (the Democrat may find success in appealing directly to Pelosi to seat her):
    https://kwwl.com/2021/01/03/rita-har...e-not-counted/
    Last edited by Montmorency; 01-11-2021 at 06:22.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  23. #923
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Fortress
    Posts
    11,852

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Alright here we go: House Dems introduce an article of impeachment against Trump for incitement of insurrection. Full text of it is here (pdf warning). No idea why they are waiting until Wednesday to vote on it. Seems like a dumb move and they should move as quickly as possible.

    Edit: also, a Capitol Police officer has been arrested, according to the reporter the cop put on a maga hat and led rioters around and another was suspended for taking selfies. And another 10 to 15 are under investigation.
    Last edited by Hooahguy; 01-11-2021 at 23:37.
    On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
    Visited:
    A man who casts no shadow has no soul.
    Hvil i fred HoreTore

    Members thankful for this post (2):



  24. #924
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Kona, Hawaii
    Posts
    2,985

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    I also have no idea why they are waiting on it, seems pretty open and shut. The delays is allowing those on the fence to already try and say that impeachment is too divisive and that censure is more suitable. Get the impeachment done and over to the Senate ASAP.

    Glad to see those police that violated their oaths getting their just deserts. Just because the protestors were on 'your side' doesn't change your duty one bit, failure to do your duty means you shouldn't hold your position.

    Crazy talking with my right wing friends, the talk is all of the sort trying to say essentially that this is overblown because BLM and Antifa protests/riots caused more damage. Local businesses and cars are NOT the seat of government!

    "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
    -Abraham Lincoln


    Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
    Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
    Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
    Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

  25. #925
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Fortress
    Posts
    11,852

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Unfortunately, impeachment was never meant to be an emergency action, but rather a long court case. The 25th amendment is supposed to be for those emergency moments but the VP is too cowardly to use it. As I posted earlier, it seemed like impeachment would be doomed anyways due to the Senate not being in session until Jan 20th unless all senators consented to gaveling back in. But the Washington Post reported that Schumer is considering invoking a lesser known rule that might be able to bring the Senate back without unanimous consent:
    Senate Minority Leader Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.) is exploring using an obscure, post-Sept. 11-era authority to reconvene the Senate as the House barrels toward a likely impeachment vote of President Trump this week, according to a senior Democratic aide.

    In 2004, the Senate majority and minority leaders were given the power to bring the Senate back into session in times of emergency, and the senior Democratic aide said Schumer is exploring this option to allow for a potential impeachment trial for Trump to begin immediately after the House transmits the articles to the Senate. The aide spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss evolving party strategy.

    Schumer’s exploration of this option is one way the incoming majority leader is rebutting an argument laid out by his counterpart, Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.), who told GOP senators in a memo last week that it was virtually impossible to begin an impeachment trial before Jan. 19, which is when the Senate reconvenes.

    Both McConnell and Schumer would have to agree to reconvene the Senate, putting pressure back on the outgoing majority leader to confront Trump as the House heads toward an impeachment vote this week for the president’s role in inciting the violent siege on the Capitol on Jan. 6.

    The resolution, which passed the Senate unanimously in February 2004, allows the chamber’s majority and minority leaders to reconvene at a time when, “in their opinion, such action is warranted by intervening circumstances,” according to a legislative summary.
    Also super angry that all these right-wingers are calling for calm and unity like they didnt just spend the past two months riling things up. As has been said before, there needs to be accountability before we can move on. I mean Trump still hasnt moved on from the election:
    The White House official said the call was tense and aggressive at times, with Trump ranting about election fraud and an exasperated McCarthy cutting in to say, "Stop it. It's over. The election is over."
    What a sad, pathetic man.

    Meanwhile the feeling here in DC is weird. Something is in the air when I walk around, like everyone is on edge for next week. 10,000 troops will be arriving by the weekend. I do hope that nothing will come of all the threats, the maga cultists would have to be morons to try anything now.

    To close for the evening, I really enjoyed this article on conservative victimhood by David Frum. The last conversation mentioned in the article is just so telling.
    An ex-conservative friend of mine told me a story about a conversation she had with someone who remained much more active in the conservative movement. The active conservative had raged about “liberal elites” until finally my friend could stand it no longer: “You went to law school. Why aren’t you an elite?” The active conservative paused, reflected, and then answered, “Well, what do you want me to call the people I hate?”
    On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
    Visited:
    A man who casts no shadow has no soul.
    Hvil i fred HoreTore

  26. #926
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Latibulm mali regis in muris.
    Posts
    11,450

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by spmetla View Post
    I also have no idea why they are waiting on it, seems pretty open and shut. The delays is allowing those on the fence to already try and say that impeachment is too divisive and that censure is more suitable. Get the impeachment done and over to the Senate ASAP.

    Glad to see those police that violated their oaths getting their just deserts. Just because the protestors were on 'your side' doesn't change your duty one bit, failure to do your duty means you shouldn't hold your position.

    Crazy talking with my right wing friends, the talk is all of the sort trying to say essentially that this is overblown because BLM and Antifa protests/riots caused more damage. Local businesses and cars are NOT the seat of government!
    The Senate is not in session. To change that under the current rules would require the agreement of all 100 senators. Trump will have at least one who says "too busy with my constituents, sorry." So impeachment prior to the inauguration is functionally impossible. The only reason to continue with an impeachment effort is to bar Trump from further federal office and/or strip away Presidential retirement privileges. These goals are worthy of continuing the effort, but are not as pressing.

    For the same reason, censure by Congress is impossible prior to the inauguration as well.

    The only immediate response, use of the 25th on grounds of mental instability, would require Pence to take that step and for the cabinet (who are dropping like flies) to agree and not to simply leave the sinking ship. I suspect that Pence is holding this over Trump to keep him quiescent until the 20th but not acting on it so as to keep the ReTrumplicans pacified.

    This is, I suspect, because he wants their votes come 2024. I think he's fooling himself AND not doing right by the USA or his oath -- but pols love to play both ends against the middle.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

    Member thankful for this post:



  27. #927

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    rofl everyone talks like Millennials now. (As always, take the self-serving leaks as greasing the skids.)

    On Friday afternoon, 48 hours after the U.S. Capitol was stormed by violent insurrectionists encouraged by Donald Trump in an attempt to overthrow the government in protest of his election loss, a senior member of his administration spoke to me while he was driving to work.

    “This is confirmation of so much that everyone has said for years now — things that a lot of us thought were hyperbolic. We’d say, ‘Trump’s not a fascist,’ or ‘He’s not a wannabe dictator.’ Now, it’s like, ‘Well, what do you even say in response to that now?’”

    For four years, people like this official — lifelong Republican operatives — have convinced themselves that Trump’s obvious faults were worth tolerating if it meant implementing a conservative policy agenda. These officials believed the benefits of remaking the courts with conservative justices, or passing tax reform, outweighed the risks that a Trump presidency posed to democracy and to the reputation of the country in the world. Now, at the 11th hour, with 12 days left before Joe Biden is sworn into office, it’s clear to some that it was always a delusion.

    “This is like a plot straight out of the later, sucky seasons of House of Cards where they just go full evil and say, ‘Let’s spark mass protests and start wars and whatever,’” the senior administration official said.
    [...]
    Advisers have expressed concern and anger over Mark Meadows, the chief of staff, whose actions have been perceived as an effort to secure employment with Trump in his post-presidency, perhaps at the Trump Organization. “Jared has been telling people, ‘Don’t even deal with him anymore,’” one adviser said. “Mark’s responsible for bringing kook after crazy after conniver after Rudy into the West Wing.” (“This is completely false,” Avi Berkowitz, Jared Kushner’s spokesman, said in a tweet responding to this article, “Jared has never said that.”) A former senior White House official said, “Morale plummeted under him, huge mistakes were made — and now he’s scrambling to stick around after. He’s a dishonest asshole who pretends to be this religious Southern gentleman. Fuck that.”
    [...]
    This adviser, who spoke to Trump on Wednesday amid the siege, said Trump watched the events on television intently. CNN reported that he was so excited by the action, it “freaked out” some staffers around him. The adviser told me that Trump expressed disgust on aesthetic grounds over how “low class” his supporters looked. “He doesn’t like low-class things,” the adviser said, explaining that Trump had a similar reaction over the summer to a video of Brad Parscale, his former campaign manager, shirtless and drinking a beer in his driveway during a mental-health emergency in which police tackled him and seized his weapons. “He kept mentioning, ‘Oh, did you see him in his beer shirt?’ He was annoyed. To him, it’s just low class, in other words.”

    The adviser said that Trump recently offered them a pardon, although they have not been charged with any crime. The adviser “politely declined.” Others are taking Trump’s pardon offers more seriously, whether they’ve been investigated or are at risk of jail time or not. “He’s just talking up a storm about giving pardons to allies: his kids, and their significant others, and staffers. He’s pretty generous with the offers. When you’re offered one, it’s like, Should I take it? Is it like insurance?”


    Quote Originally Posted by spmetla View Post
    Crazy talking with my right wing friends, the talk is all of the sort trying to say essentially that this is overblown because BLM and Antifa protests/riots caused more damage. Local businesses and cars are NOT the seat of government!
    Hard-nosed analysis always resounds the same dour intonation, in the observation that these petulant comparisons aren't meant to actually identify and contest concrete factual or ethical dimensions in either object of comparison. When fascists deflect to BLM in this or any context, what they are communicating is their internal representation of rage that 'these f****** uppity n****** and their race-cucked accomplices get to be seen and heard while our rightful assertion of ownership and control over this society is rebuffed.'

    Anyone who has ever spent much time with conservatives - and many patrons likely have more clocked than I do - shouldn't have illusions about what defines these mentalities by now.

    Last edited by Montmorency; 01-12-2021 at 20:47.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  28. #928
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Fortress
    Posts
    11,852

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    So this is a fascinating development- McConnell is reportedly "pleased" about impeachment. I dont blame him for wanting Trump out. He served his purpose before but McConnell undoubtedly blames Trump for losing the Senate. I mean on November 10th, the GOP was in a great place- narrow Dem majority in the House and seemed likely to hold onto the Senate. But then Trump kept going on about election fraud for two months and cost the GOP the Senate in a very winnable election. Trump is now a toxic entity and McConnell wants a clean break to try to get rid of Trumpism. Unfortunately for him, it wont be that easy as the Trumpists will plague the GOP for a long time to come. He sowed the wind and will reap the whirlwind.

    Edit: Liz Cheney, chair of the House Republican Conference (#3 in leadership) says she will vote to impeach. Fascinating power play here as shes essentially angling to replace McCarthy as House minority leader by detaching herself from Trump (McCarthy and Scalise have stayed close to Trump). Huge rift in the GOP right now.
    Last edited by Hooahguy; 01-13-2021 at 00:24.
    On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
    Visited:
    A man who casts no shadow has no soul.
    Hvil i fred HoreTore

  29. #929
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooahguy View Post
    So this is a fascinating development- McConnell is reportedly "pleased" about impeachment. I dont blame him for wanting Trump out. He served his purpose before but McConnell undoubtedly blames Trump for losing the Senate. I mean on November 10th, the GOP was in a great place- narrow Dem majority in the House and seemed likely to hold onto the Senate. But then Trump kept going on about election fraud for two months and cost the GOP the Senate in a very winnable election. Trump is now a toxic entity and McConnell wants a clean break to try to get rid of Trumpism. Unfortunately for him, it wont be that easy as the Trumpists will plague the GOP for a long time to come. He sowed the wind and will reap the whirlwind.
    A bit like the Corbynites on the left here in the UK. He managed to energise the base, but was toxic to everyone else, and now his personal following are determined to ruin the party he's with. Corbyn never got into power here though, and it's hard to imagine him being as bad as Trump has been, or his support as destructive. But in terms of their relationship with the party they were affiliated with, they're comparable.

  30. #930
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Kona, Hawaii
    Posts
    2,985

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Hard-nosed analysis always resounds the same dour intonation, in the observation that these petulant comparisons aren't meant to actually identify and contest concrete factual or ethical dimensions in either object of comparison. When fascists deflect to BLM in this or any context, what they are communicating is their internal representation of rage that 'these f****** uppity n****** and their race-cucked accomplices get to be seen and heard while our rightful assertion of ownership and control over this society is rebuffed.'

    Anyone who has ever spent much time with conservatives - and many patrons likely have more clocked than I do - shouldn't have illusions about what defines these mentalities by now.
    That's the unique thing in the Hawaii National Guard, the right wingers don't have a racial tone or even a very Christian one. They just see the 'libs' as the enemy and as others have said in here, they love Trump because he upsets the SJWs and Libs. As others here have noted, it's not about policy for them anymore, it's just their team versus their enemies. It's hilarious when I call Trump out on things how they expect me to then have to defend BLM and Antifa as if I were a partisan supporter of those. Being against Trump somehow makes me a Liberal to them, can't have opposition of too many shades, it's all one bad entity for them to save America from, even if it means destroying America.

    Think the Trumpers have learned this from 1984:
    And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed—if all records told the same tale—then the lie passed into history and became truth. ‘Who controls the past’ ran the Party slogan, ‘controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.
    Last edited by spmetla; 01-13-2021 at 00:33.

    "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
    -Abraham Lincoln


    Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
    Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
    Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
    Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

Page 31 of 37 FirstFirst ... 21272829303132333435 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO