Game mechanics questions

[drone]

I've been looking around with the Gnome editor, checking out stats and stuff for something I'm working on, and I've come across a few curious things I was hoping you guys could clear up for me. I'll probably come back with more as I get farther along, but I'll start simple for now.

1. I'm assuming that the viking_build_prod.txt and viking_unit_prod.txt are the ones used for the Viking campaign, while the "crusaders" files get used for the main campaign. projectilestats.txt is shared, correct?

2. For the farm upgrades, in the build_prod file they are listed with 200, 400, 480, 560 "income" in viking, and 120, 140, 160, 180 "income" in crusaders. These are supposed to be percentages, not actual income figures like the ones given for mines or cathedrals. Is this sorted out in the engine by the BuildingType label of FARM_INCOME? Anything special about LEV1_INCOME and CATHEDRAL_INCOME BuildingTypes? Also, any idea what makes the Forest Clearing indestructable?

3. Never seen this, because I always try to stay pagan as the Vikings, but what happens to pagan shrines when the Vikings convert? Do they just go away/get destroyed?

4. Abbeys in VI are listed with an income of 400 in build_prod. I thought this was supposed to be 200. Do I need to rethink my destruction strategy?

5. I always thought that building the first-level castle building gave a happiness bonus, but I see that is not the case in build_prod. Is this just a figment of my imagination, or something hard-coded into the engine? I can imagine this being the case, since the castles get displayed on the main map. Any idea what (if any) the happiness bonus is?

6. Lastly, Merchants. I assume the engine knows what to do with the TRADING_POST BuildType combined with tech level, because there isn't anything else in there. The bigger the trading post, the more income it makes. Any ideas on how this works with respect to the trade goods present?

Looking forward to being enlightened.

[Raz]

Hmm, wonder why macsen hasn't beaten me to this one...
Note: I believe this belongs in the Alchemists Lab, perhaps? But hey, it gets more attention here. =D

1. I'm assuming that the viking_build_prod.txt and viking_unit_prod.txt are the ones used for the Viking campaign, while the "crusaders" files get used for the main campaign. projectilestats.txt is shared, correct?

True. If you are ever unsure, open \campmap\startpos\"era".txt and check. Where "era" is say Vikings etc. It says somewhere close to the top of the file something along the lines of: "UnitProd: viking_unit_prod.txt BuildProd viking_build_prod.txt"
projectilestats.txt is shared, true, so be careful what you touch in there.

2. For the farm upgrades, in the build_prod file they are listed with 200, 400, 480, 560 "income" in viking, and 120, 140, 160, 180 "income" in crusaders. These are supposed to be percentages, not actual income figures like the ones given for mines or cathedrals. Is this sorted out in the engine by the BuildingType label of FARM_INCOME? Anything special about LEV1_INCOME and CATHEDRAL_INCOME BuildingTypes? Also, any idea what makes the Forest Clearing indestructable?

No (I think...), those income values are directly implemented in game, they are adjusted in the startpost file I've referred to above under each province. That way you'll see that farm income in Sinai etc. is low no matter how much you soup up the farms. That label simply relates to what is read in game... e.g. "The farms in this province will generate the following income:" and "These mines will produce this following income:" etc. The only one that is different is trade and ports, which is dependent on your province's trade resources and ship routes etc.

3. Never seen this, because I always try to stay pagan as the Vikings, but what happens to pagan shrines when the Vikings convert? Do they just go away/get destroyed?

I actually have no clue... I've only ever really played a VI campaign properly as, well, the Vikings...

4. Abbeys in VI are listed with an income of 400 in build_prod. I thought this was supposed to be 200. Do I need to rethink my destruction strategy?

Hmm? Income or cost to construct? You get money from destroying buildings relative to how much it costs... Sorry, I don't think I quite get you on this. You'll have to wait for someone more experienced then me.

5. I always thought that building the first-level castle building gave a happiness bonus, but I see that is not the case in build_prod. Is this just a figment of my imagination, or something hard-coded into the engine? I can imagine this being the case, since the castles get displayed on the main map. Any idea what (if any) the happiness bonus is?

It's hard-coded. I don't know the exact bonus, sorry.

6. Lastly, Merchants. I assume the engine knows what to do with the TRADING_POST BuildType combined with tech level, because there isn't anything else in there. The bigger the trading post, the more income it makes. Any ideas on how this works with respect to the trade goods present?

Are you looking for a magic formula that shows how much income you'll get if you had x merchant with y trade goods and z trade routes? Well, I don't think you'll find one.
But that sounds more like a question for Puzz the ultra-uber technical guy. If he doesn't mind me saying...

- Eh, I just realized I didn't answer half of those questions... shows how much I know... =D

[amritochates]

1."I'm assuming that the viking_build_prod.txt and viking_unit_prod.txt are the ones used for the Viking campaign, while the "crusaders" files get used for the main campaign. projectilestats.txt is shared", correct? -yes.

Also in the campmap/names folder you get a separate viking heroes.txt, as well as separate files in the loc/eng folder as well.

2." For the farm upgrades, in the build_prod file they are listed with 200, 400, 480, 560 "income" in viking, and 120, 140, 160, 180 "income" in crusaders. These are supposed to be percentages, not actual income figures like the ones given for mines or cathedrals. Is this sorted out in the engine by the BuildingType label of FARM_INCOME? Anything special about LEV1_INCOME and CATHEDRAL_INCOME BuildingTypes?"

Yes, they are indeed percentages- the general formula being if base income level is 100, then the first upgrade will generate 120 in the main campaign and 200 in the viking campaign subject. This however is modified by a number of factors, so that actual income may vary from 110-124(only for illustration-not actual figures). Search the site for more detailed information.

In case of LEV1_INCOME and CATHEDRAL_INCOME you get about roughly 55%of the amount mentioned in the income column- ex. a figure of 400 will generate about 208 florins.

Also, any idea what makes the Forest Clearing indestructable?- most probably hardcoded as far as I know.

3."Never seen this, because I always try to stay pagan as the Vikings, but what happens to pagan shrines when the Vikings convert? Do they just go away/get destroyed?" -yes they are destroyed as in case of any religious building alien to the culture actually occupying the province. ex the abbeys in the british isles when raided by you.

4. see post no.2 for first part and you get money from destroying buildings relative to how much it costs- but the vikings get a special hard coded raiding bonus as well as the ability to raid without using ports.

5."I always thought that building the first-level castle building gave a happiness bonus, but I see that is not the case in build_prod. Is this just a figment of my imagination, or something hard-coded into the engine? I can imagine this being the case, since the castles get displayed on the main map. Any idea what (if any) the happiness bonus is?" -No happiness bonus afaik, but you do get a minimal chance of bandits appearing in a province with a fort- again hardcoded.

6. Again a formula exists somewhere- check in the giudes or post in the alchemist lab.

[macsen rufus]

Hmm, wonder why macsen hasn't beaten me to this one...

Cos I only saw it 5 mins before I finished work for the weekend

I'll just add a small note: trade goods are defined for their value in the startpos file. If you want to make some goods really valuable, that's where you'd do it. I think it's the DeclareTradeGoods command, which gives a name (eg WOOL) followed by a value. So if wool is defined at a value of "10" your first level merchant would give 10 florins per year income. If you then build a port and trade it across the seas, you'll get an extra 10 florins for each port that imports it. The second level mechant adds a percentage (I think it's 20% per level, but I could be wrong), in which case your wool becomes worth 12 florins and so on. Now trade incomes are also affected by governor's acumen and other V&Vs so this figure will vary.

And yes, forest clearing is hardcoded as indestructible - making it a very useful item to rename and re-use for something else in mods The Viking port is also indestructible IIRC.

Viking raiding bonus means they recoup the full cost of a destroyed building instead rather than the usual half...

[drone]

Thanks for the responses. I'm not trying to mod anything, I just want a clearer understanding of what's going on.

On my Abbey destruction comment, I was referring to destroying Abbeys early on as a non-Viking faction, to make the province less attractive to the raiders. 200 a turn is doable if it keeps the province safe, 400 a turn, I would have to reconsider. Interesting take on the CATHEDRAL_INCOME percentages, I wonder why they would have done that? Does cathedral income depend on the religion percentage/zeal of the province?

Good stuff on the merchant line. I assume the base values then are the "local trade" income I've seen mentioned (but not explained) everywhere.

I know I need to look closer into the startpos files. That is next on the list.

[macsen rufus]

I assume the base values then are the "local trade" income I've seen mentioned

Spot on - this is what you'll be left with if your port is blockaded, as well. Some goods are worth building a trader for, even in inland provinces (eg tradable salt in XL, nets you 80-90 florins depending on governors etc, or a ten-year ROI)

Does cathedral income depend on the religion percentage/zeal of the province?

No, it is fiixed, doesn't even vary with governor's acumen.

destroying Abbeys early on as a non-Viking faction

Now some may advocate such a strategy, but personally I regard it as highly cheesy. Also I like to role-play my "Defender of the Faith" position as a good Catholic (admittedly this usually means having to sacrifice one of my princesses to the pagans, but it saves my abbeys After all an abbey takes 10 years and 2000 florins, a new daughter is but a night's work )

[drone]

Now some may advocate such a strategy, but personally I regard it as highly cheesy. Also I like to role-play my "Defender of the Faith" position as a good Catholic (admittedly this usually means having to sacrifice one of my princesses to the pagans, but it saves my abbeys After all an abbey takes 10 years and 2000 florins, a new daughter is but a night's work )

It's cheesy, but when you play the Scots you have to do what you can to survive.

On to some combat-related questions:

7. The shield modifier. Some units have a shield modifier that either halves the effectiveness of the shield, or negates it entirely. I assume this is done to get around some graphical mechanical issues with respect to unit balance. Large shields seen, but only as effective as small ones? I think I understand the mechanics, just curious about the reasoning behind it.

8. What is the skirmish stand-off distance? 25-30 meters?

9. Charging and pushback. The official guide says the attacker gets a +6 bonus if the defender is being pushed back. It also talks about the charge bonus being applied until the momentum dies down. Any ideas on when charging "ends", and when pushback occurs?

[macsen rufus]

Re shields: stats and graphics are totally unrelated in a mechanical sense. The reason some shields have reduced effectiveness is that the units are already so well armoured that adding a shield doesn't make a great difference to the level of protection.

Hmmm, distances I'm not too clear on, but that sounds reasonable - I could never throw a javelin much further than 25m (though I did set the record at our school for a while ) There is a formula somewhere relating the distance unit used in the prod files and "real" distances, but it's not something that I've ever really thought worth sweating over....

I don't know the exact moment a "charge" ends. It probably varies in different situations, depending on the unit charging and the unit being charged at, and also terrain (I expect an uphill charge to falter more rapidly than a downhill one...) I would expect a charge to be over once the unit has come to a halt, or significantly slowed down, but again, it's one I handle more by "feel" than any hard and fast stats. You can tell when your horses start dropping like flies

[drone]

Hmmm, distances I'm not too clear on, but that sounds reasonable - I could never throw a javelin much further than 25m (though I did set the record at our school for a while ) There is a formula somewhere relating the distance unit used in the prod files and "real" distances, but it's not something that I've ever really thought worth sweating over....

The javelin's theoretical range is 26 meters (from the projectile stats file, range value * 0.02). But this is just the range at which the cursor goes green, the velocity and trajectory calculations really determine the true range. But since javelin skirmishers need to be taken off skirmish to throw properly, I figure the stand-off skirmish range is around 25 meters. It might even be less, I'm not sure how the skirmishing unit's formation comes into play, or where the distances are measured from.

[Ironside]

In case of LEV1_INCOME and CATHEDRAL_INCOME you get about roughly 55%of the amount mentioned in the income column- ex. a figure of 400 will generate about 208 florins.

It's 52%. Afaik it has to do with the number of week during a year. Most likely a relic from some point of the development.

[macsen rufus]

where the distances are measured from.

Good question... from my observations I believe they're measured from the unit flag. Often there will be part of a unit "in range" ie you get a green arrow over the ground, but red over the unit, until the unit flag comes within range, at which point the cursor goes green. So although individual men may well be well within range you still can't target them - this is especially noticeable when playing with large/huge units.

[drone]

It's 52%. Afaik it has to do with the number of week during a year. Most likely a relic from some point of the development.

Interesting. That's for both the mines and churches? I wonder if this is a leftover byproduct of STW's seasons.

Good question... from my observations I believe they're measured from the unit flag. Often there will be part of a unit "in range" ie you get a green arrow over the ground, but red over the unit, until the unit flag comes within range, at which point the cursor goes green. So although individual men may well be well within range you still can't target them - this is especially noticeable when playing with large/huge units.

That's what I was thinking as well. The skirmish distance might also be computed by the unit flags, I've seen the ends of units come pretty close before the pull back starts, when units aren't parallel to each other.

[drone]

More building questions:

10. Valour bonuses and building lines. I'll use VI as an example, since there are more cases here. The Bowyer line has the Butts, Bowyer, and Bowyer's Workshop. The Gnome Editor has the following under Troop upgrades:

"{}, {UPGRADE_VALOUR(1)},{UPGRADE_VALOUR(2)}"

So this would lead me to believe that units available with the Butts would get +1 with a Bowyer, and +2 with a Bowyer's Workshop (this is what the tech tree says anyway). However, it's not clear what happens when the Bowyer is needed to produce a troop (Mounted Crossbows) and the higher level building is present. Does the engine figure the valour difference between the required build level and the top level building?

(Might not be the best example, since Mounteds require another building line...)

11. Building line bonus replacements (this one has come up recently I think). Again using VI, I'll use the Church line. The happiness bonus for the Church line is listed as "10, 20, 30". My assumption is that each upgrade replaces the previous building in the line, so a Catholic Chapel gives 20%, not 10% + 20%. Is this right?

Then comes the Cathedral, which is a separate building line. It has a 40% happiness bonus. Does the Cathedral replace the Church, for a 40% total, or do they co-exist for a 30% + 40% bonus?

[macsen rufus]

The valour bonuses do work pretty much as you say If a unit requires the "v1" building (eg bowyer) then it will have a +1 bonus in the "v2" building (eg bowyer's workshop).

Where two building lines are required, then the one listed first in the unit_prod entry is the one that gives the valour bonus. So if you had a unit needing a swordsmith and spearmaker, you could set the valour bonus to come from either building: for a swordsmith-line bonus you would enter (swordsmith, spearmaker) and reversing this would give the bonus from the spearmaker line.

The exception to this is for cavalry, where the horse breeder line always gives the valour bonus.

The happiness bonuses do work on a "replacement" basis when a building is upgraded, but where different building types are available they should be cumulative. So church replaces chapel, but a cathedral is extra

[drone]

The valour bonuses do work pretty much as you say If a unit requires the "v1" building (eg bowyer) then it will have a +1 bonus in the "v2" building (eg bowyer's workshop).

Of course, VI being what it is, has to add a quirk. The Royal_Palace building line has this:

"{},{UPGRADE_VALOUR(1)},{UPGRADE_VALOUR(1)}"

So the Mead Hall gives +1 valour to the Drinking Hall-enabled troops. Does the Royal Palace give +1 to Mead Hall troops (Gallowglasses, Dartmen, Beserkers)? Or are they not affected because there is no increase from their required level?

The happiness bonuses do work on a "replacement" basis when a building is upgraded, but where different building types are available they should be cumulative. So church replaces chapel, but a cathedral is extra

That's what I thought. It's logical, since the building lines determine what shows up in the existing buildings window for a province. Thanks for the verification.


I really shouldn't drink when I play MTW, I'm sure it's affecting my observational abilities.

[macsen rufus]

"{},{UPGRADE_VALOUR(1)},{UPGRADE_VALOUR(1)}"

This means that level 2 gives a +1v to troops from lvl 1 building, level three gives +1v to troops from level 1 or level 2 - it does this so the level three doesn't give another valour boost to the lowlier units.

Hope that's clearer than I think it is

[drone]

This means that level 2 gives a +1v to troops from lvl 1 building, level three gives +1v to troops from level 1 or level 2 - it does this so the level three doesn't give another valour boost to the lowlier units.

Hope that's clearer than I think it is

Not really. Let's say the Royal Palace actually had +2, how does the game know that Gallowglasses get +1 at level 3, and Kerns get +2? It's the inconsistentcy that's bugging me here. With levels 2 and 3 giving +1 in the game, I just can't see how it's programmed. I'm not saying it doesn't do what you say, I just can't figure out why.

[macsen rufus]

Not really

Yup, not surprised - was tryng to get one last post in before closing down the PC and going home

I was trying not to use specific units as TBH I can't remember which comes from what level of building.... so imagine something like:

Scheme A:

Level1 --> Grunts --> no upgrades
Level2 --> Veterans --> +1 valour
Level3 --> Guards --> +1 valour

In this version, level 2 gives 'raw' veterans and +1 grunts, and the level 3 building gives raw guards, and both grunts and veterans at +1.

Scheme B:

Level1 --> Grunts --> no upgrades
Level2 --> Veterans --> +1 valour
Level3 --> Guards --> +2 valour

In this version, level 2 gives 'raw' veterans and +1 grunts, but the level 3 building gives raw guards, and +2 grunts and veterans at +1.

'How' seems to be that it subtracts any valour bonus attached to a building which is a basic requirement for a troop type from the one for the building actually being used - hence the +1 from the level 2 doesn't apply to the veterans as building used = +1, basic requirement = +1, bonus applied = 1-1=0.

The level 3 building has a bonus 1 higher than the level 2 in the second instance, hence the difference is what applies when veterans are trained at a level 3 facility, namely 2-1=1, but with the grunt the difference between the level 3 and the "basic requirement" level 1 is 2-0=2, hence the grunts get the +2 bonus, and guards receive no valour bonus at all, as the Level 3 is their "basic requirement" (making 2-2=0).

[drone]

Scheme A:

Level1 --> Grunts --> no upgrades
Level2 --> Veterans --> +1 valour
Level3 --> Guards --> +1 valour

In this version, level 2 gives 'raw' veterans and +1 grunts, and the level 3 building gives raw guards, and both grunts and veterans at +1.

...

'How' seems to be that it subtracts any valour bonus attached to a building which is a basic requirement for a troop type from the one for the building actually being used - hence the +1 from the level 2 doesn't apply to the veterans as building used = +1, basic requirement = +1, bonus applied = 1-1=0.

This is the one I don't get. If the Level 3 building exists, how does the game know to give Veterans +1? If it subtracts the +1 from the Level 2 building (base requirement), why wouldn't they be +0?

Good idea to the switch to generic building/units, btw.

[macsen rufus]

Hmm... I see your point. I guess I've misconstrued the "how" slightly, in that case. Perhaps it's more of an up-front check along the lines of: 'what building do I have, and is it the "base requirement" for the unit that you've asked me to train? If it is, I shall ignore the valour bonus entry in the unit prod.' Then the second level of decision would be the calculation of what the available bonus would be...

Again short of time... tmrw!

[drone]

So a few more have cropped up.

12. How does the game determine which sea a port connects to? The SetPort:: lines in the startpos files place the port on the map grid(X, Y, with the 3rd number being facing?), is it just the graphic placement that determines this, or is there another file/connection I'm missing? First SeaRegion that appears in the SetNeighbours line for the land region?

13. The "POP." field for a region's SetAttributes line is for the unrest factor, correct?

14. There seems to be an inconsistency between VI's PDF techtree and the VIKING.TXT regarding the royal offices from the Royal Hall and Royal Armoury. Just some typos?

15. What determines the battle map used? My guesses based on the startpos files and the repository thread: the SetBorderInfo line will determine the map when attacking from the first column region to the second, with "land lie" (inland/coastal) and "vista" (flat/hilly/etc) choosing the battle map type, and river/no_river deciding on bridge battles. The SetAttributes line for a region is used for castle assaults, sallies, and rebellions, with "region attributes" determining the map type. Is this correct?

Many thanks.

[macsen rufus]

Ah, I noticed tmrw never came - so on to the next

12. How does the game determine which sea a port connects to? The SetPort:: lines in the startpos files place the port on the map grid(X, Y, with the 3rd number being facing?), is it just the graphic placement that determines this, or is there another file/connection I'm missing? First SeaRegion that appears in the SetNeighbours line for the land region?

SetPort is purely cosmetic - determines where the port graphic appears on the campaign map. Where it ACTS is down to the SetNeighbours entries -- the FIRST sea region listed for a land-region's neighbours will be where the port acts (ie this is the one where you must connect to for trade, launching invasions etc).

13. The "POP." field for a region's SetAttributes line is for the unrest factor, correct?

0 is normal, 3 is Portugal, 10 is insane....

14 - no comment on quality of documentation Titles/offices are determined by relevant entries in Startpos files. If a title is applied to a building which can be upgraded, the title will disappear once the upgrade is done (unless you have another building of the same type elsewhere - this is why most titles apply to top-tier buildings).

15. What determines the battle map used? My guesses based on the startpos files and the repository thread: the SetBorderInfo line will determine the map when attacking from the first column region to the second, with "land lie" (inland/coastal) and "vista" (flat/hilly/etc) choosing the battle map type, and river/no_river deciding on bridge battles. The SetAttributes line for a region is used for castle assaults, sallies, and rebellions, with "region attributes" determining the map type. Is this correct?

Maps are defined by their name, which need not bear any relation to their contents, and are selected by name to match the border attributes as you have twigged. Note that for sea invasions you can't "read" which map will apply as there is no rollover tooltip for the sea-land borders (so you can be evil here when modding )

I did read once that maps called something like flat2mnt and mnt2flat allow you more map types - alas they both get selected as options for the same borders.

[bondovic]

0 is normal, 3 is Portugal, 10 is insane....

Are you telling me that I can set the 'rebellious' factor to higher than 4?

[bondovic]

This is the one I don't get. If the Level 3 building exists, how does the game know to give Veterans +1? If it subtracts the +1 from the Level 2 building (base requirement), why wouldn't they be +0?

Good idea to the switch to generic building/units, btw.

It seems kind of straight forward to me. The engine identifies the amount using the existing level of building - required level per unit type. For a veteran it's existing level = 3 - required level = 2 = 1 valour.

[macsen rufus]

Are you telling me that I can set the 'rebellious' factor to higher than 4?

TBH I'm not 100% sure on that - I recall creating some very rebellious provinces but not sure any more how high I set the basic level against how much I loaded the provinces with unhappy-buildings and culture-clashes in the startpos, but I can check (The point being that the scenario depended on an empire starting with widespread rebellion problems.....)

[bondovic]

TBH I'm not 100% sure on that - I recall creating some very rebellious provinces but not sure any more how high I set the basic level against how much I loaded the provinces with unhappy-buildings and culture-clashes in the startpos, but I can check (The point being that the scenario depended on an empire starting with widespread rebellion problems.....)

Cool! What provinces should be made uninhabitable then?

[macsen rufus]

Cool! What provinces should be made uninhabitable then?

Well, for Mediaeval I wouldn't like to say, although the English probably need a harder time of it, especially in their French holdings. My own use for this feature was to give Dareios a hard time holding the Persian Empire together so I went for Upper & Lower Egypt, Ionia, and Syria .... and Sogdiana and Bactria.... and maybe Aria as well Oh, and Alex finds Greece a bit of a handful too

As a general rule it might be an idea to make some of the richer provinces a bit more restless (usually where there's great wealth, there will also be social and political tensions) but also to prompt the AI to increase its garrisons there and make them better defended.

[drone]

You guys are just mean.

Along these same lines...

16. What determines the starting religious percentages in a province? There is the faction culture and religion, as well as a culture defined for each province in the startpos file. But how do the small percentages of heretics and Jews creep into the equation?

17. The "RegionID troop advantage" column in the unit_prod files in the GnomeEditor, this determines the provinces that give valour bonuses, correct? The column comment is a little vague. Looking through the units, it looks about right (although I'm not sure about Clansmen in VI getting bonuses in 3 provinces ).

[macsen rufus]

You guys are just mean

Aah, you say the nicest things

#16 -- religion will be influenced by those things, but also religious buildings and agents, and those in neighbouring provinces - "faith propagation" does leak across borders. I don't know where the minor ones come from, probably just a residue of the owner's culture not exerting maximum effect at the beginning, possibly related to the rebelliousness quotient, too.

#17 -- I didn't know about 3 provinces for clansmen bonus either! As you will have gathered from this, more than one province can give a bonus, but IIRC only one will show the tooltip for it on the province parchment, same as multiple units in one province, only one unit will show on the parchment (hence the "hidden" bonus for assassins in Syria)

[drone]

Another one, probably pretty easy for you modding pros:

18. What determines if a ship can enter a particular sea region?