The Islam Thread...

[Crazed Rabbit]

I'm an experianced suicide bomber

That's tricky to pull off.

Anyway, in my opinion Islam needs some sort of reformation, like Catholicism.

CR

[Rhyfelwyr]

I always thought that's what the Shiite/Sunni split was about. At least that's what is seemed like playing EU3.

[caravel]

I'm a Muslim. [moderator's Irony alert] I was raised in a dark room and was taught to kill people like you, also, I'm an experianced suicide bomber and the only words that come through my mind are Jihad and Allah.[/irony] ~Kukri

Ramadan is four days away, so I don't feel like arguing. Believe what you want about Islam, I read the Qur'an every Ramadan and it does not promote violence and bloodshed.

Don't mean to insult y'all but come on, I'm sick of seeing hateful comments towards my religion every time I read through my favorite section of the forum. You can express your thoughts through it, sure, but the subject's getting old.

+1, well said.

It seems that many here base their opinions on the b/s written or spoken in the local right wing / conservative news media. Sad really.

[Devastatin Dave]

+1, well said.

It seems that many here base their opinions on the b/s written or spoken in the local right wing / conservative news media. Sad really.

Or the AP wire...

[AlexanderSextus]

look like i said i dont think that all muslims are crazy suicide bombers that want to kill everyone, its just that the ones that are crazy get justification from the same book that the non-crazy ones read. The particular verses that they get to justify their behavior are pretty straightforward too...but hey, Hax corrected me on the las one i posted, and that was cool. See, i learned something! thats the point of all this.

no need to be pissed off mr. fahad!! i'm not trying to hate on you!

Also, yes, christianity has its fair share of wingnuts, but there is far less room for interpretation than with the bible because, after all, "the Qur'an is perfect".

i'm not trying to be hateful, frankly, i'm just a little scared. You dont see christians or jews bombing trains and buses and stuff. (ok ok yeah technically the OKC bombing, but that seems to be more of a NEO NAZI thing than a christian thing)

oh, and screw the media. if i listened to them i wouldnt be here trying to get the info straight from the horses mouth.

[Fragony]

I'm a Muslim. [moderator's Irony alert] I was raised in a dark room and was taught to kill people like you, also, I'm an experianced suicide bomber and the only words that come through my mind are Jihad and Allah.[/irony] ~Kukri

Ramadan is four days away, so I don't feel like arguing. Believe what you want about Islam, I read the Qur'an every Ramadan and it does not promote violence and bloodshed.

Don't mean to insult y'all but come on, I'm sick of seeing hateful comments towards my religion every time I read through my favorite section of the forum. You can express your thoughts through it, sure, but the subject's getting old.

As long as the sick stuff goes on it will never get old. You seem to be more concerned about what is said about the islam rather then what is done in it's name, what is done each and every day.

[JR-]

It seems that many here base their opinions on the b/s written or spoken in the local right wing / conservative news media. Sad really.

i don't think the right-wing (mainstream) press are any worse (on their impact on society) than the left; the former tells it like it is with lashing of hyperbole while the latter refuses to diagnose the condition and thus perpetuates the problem.

[BigTex]

That's tricky to pull off.

Anyway, in my opinion Islam needs some sort of reformation, like Catholicism.

CR

Yes reformation, kinda like europes reformation. Wonderful period of time wasnt it. Was it 1/3 or more of the population of germany that was killed in the 30 years war?

The world will not allow a religious reformation to occur in the middle east as long as they supply us with large amounts of oil. Religious reformations have always been bloody and very messy things. But the middle east seems to be loaming close to that already.

[JR-]

2050 sounds like party time then. but package holidays to the red sea will be strictly off the cards.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Also, yes, christianity has its fair share of wingnuts, but there is far less room for interpretation than with the bible because, after all, "the Qur'an is perfect".

Infallable scripture.

[rory_20_uk]

But be that as it may, there are many that read the "perfect" book, the other bolt-ons and draw very different conclusions.

[Papewaio]

i'm not trying to be hateful, frankly, i'm just a little scared. You dont see christians or jews bombing trains and buses and stuff. (ok ok yeah technically the OKC bombing, but that seems to be more of a NEO NAZI thing than a christian thing)

Just need to dial back in history far enough.

Now apart from Spanish Inquisitions and Conquistadors...Guy Fawkes... you could go to the last century and look at say the King David Hotel or to the Basques or to Ireland (then a little latter to Northern Ireland).

There is more a direct link between lack of representation and poverty to creating the climate and resources for terrorism. Religion is just a power source and another way of creating an us vs them grouping, other forms of power structures such as Fascism and Communism will be used by those who want power... just be happy that in the US and other functioning Democracies if you want to rule you bombard the air waves with TV Ads.

[JR-]

which is why i think islam will probably be all grown-up in about 500 years, maybe less if the war on terror is actually won and militant expansionist islam discredited as a creed.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

To be honest I don't buy into this "Islam needs to grow up" line. There are several fundamental differences between Islam and Christianity.

1. The Koran is the infallible word of the God, the Bible is an anthology explicitely compiled by priests and Bishops, leaving aside the OT the NT is NOT an actual source of absolute authority, because there is no "Book of Jesus" i.e. no direct word from God. It's an important point and it means that Christians can make judgements without actually going against their Holy text as a whole, that's not possible with the Koran because it is absolute. This is not to say that Christians have not claimed Biblical infallibility but it manifestly is not built into the text itself.

2. The rise of the two religions was completely different, Christianity is a religion of the poor and dispossessed as well as the wealthy, it is all inclusive and it's principle figure pointedly refused to assume any Earthly Power, in direct opposition to Islam where the principle prophet was a powerful military and political actor in his own times.

3. Christianity and Islam have subtly different views on issues such as free will which further affect interpretation. Jesus was decidely oblique when it came to issues of salvation and the nature of God, the issue of exactly what is required in order to enter heaven remains one of stiff contention among Theologins because we have no authorative account of what Jesus taught.

Ultimately the enjuring images of Christianity are the fisherman, the shepard, the carpenter and the sacrifice on the cross, none of which are images of power. None of this makes Christianity better than Islam but it makes the two fundamentally different and I personnally believe it makes a direct comparison of their development innaplicable. Particually as Islam has already had several peaceful and enlightened periords.

If you want a comparison Judaism is a much better bet but that religion has not had the same political clout as Islam for a long time.

[Hax]

which is why i think islam will probably be all grown-up in about 500 years, maybe less if the war on terror is actually won

War on terror is very dubious. War itself is terrorizing, in a way, so what exactly are you doing? You are terrorizing terrorism?

1. The Koran is the infallible word of the God, the Bible is an anthology explicitely compiled by priests and Bishops, leaving aside the OT the NT is NOT an actual source of absolute authority, because there is no "Book of Jesus" i.e. no direct word from God. It's an important point and it means that Christians can make judgements without actually going against their Holy text as a whole, that's not possible with the Koran because it is absolute. This is not to say that Christians have not claimed Biblical infallibility but it manifestly is not built into the text itself.

Be that as it may (The Qu'ran being the infallible word of God as you state it), there is always room for interpretation. You can read the Surahs and verses and all of that metaphorically, instead of reading it literally. Saying that Christians can make judgements without going against their Holy text says is nonsense, for I am quite certain that Mohammed himself stated that the every man has it's own free will, but everyone has to take his own responsibility for it.

Wait now, to my opinion that differs a lot from Thomas de Aquino and his mandate of "Don't think, believe", as well as other Christian "scholars" after that time. Also, you can claim that Islam is more prone to violence than Christianity, but there is a saying;

"Christianity is the religion of Love, Islam is the religion of Knowledge".

[Tribesman]

1. The Koran is the infallible word of the God, the Bible is an anthology explicitely compiled by priests and Bishops, leaving aside the OT the NT is NOT an actual source of absolute authority, because there is no "Book of Jesus" i.e. no direct word from God. It's an important point and it means that Christians can make judgements without actually going against their Holy text as a whole, that's not possible with the Koran because it is absolute. This is not to say that Christians have not claimed Biblical infallibility but it manifestly is not built into the text itself.

That doesn't make sense .
If the Koran is absolute and different judgements cannot be made on interpretation of the texts then why are there so many different flavours of Islam and why is it continuously being studied , interpreted and having differing judgements given out ?

[Incongruous]

Islam needs some sort of reformation, like Catholicism.

CR

Just think through that statement a bit...

[Incongruous]

That doesn't make sense .
If the Koran is absolute and different judgements cannot be made on interpretation of the texts then why are there so many different flavours of Islam and why is it continuously being studied , interpreted and having differing judgements given out ?

Because God is an Englishmen!
Or whatever flavour of nationality you wish to give him.

I think he is just playing some kind of heinous trick on us sometimes. Heaven is an apology fo having created us.
Ah, the intergalactic philosophic wisdom of The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy.

[JR-]

To be honest I don't buy into this "Islam needs to grow up" line. There are several fundamental differences between Islam and Christianity.

1. The Koran is the infallible word of the God, the Bible is an anthology explicitely compiled by priests and Bishops, leaving aside the OT the NT is NOT an actual source of absolute authority, because there is no "Book of Jesus" i.e. no direct word from God. It's an important point and it means that Christians can make judgements without actually going against their Holy text as a whole, that's not possible with the Koran because it is absolute. This is not to say that Christians have not claimed Biblical infallibility but it manifestly is not built into the text itself.

2. The rise of the two religions was completely different, Christianity is a religion of the poor and dispossessed as well as the wealthy, it is all inclusive and it's principle figure pointedly refused to assume any Earthly Power, in direct opposition to Islam where the principle prophet was a powerful military and political actor in his own times.

3. Christianity and Islam have subtly different views on issues such as free will which further affect interpretation. Jesus was decidely oblique when it came to issues of salvation and the nature of God, the issue of exactly what is required in order to enter heaven remains one of stiff contention among Theologins because we have no authorative account of what Jesus taught.

Ultimately the enjuring images of Christianity are the fisherman, the shepard, the carpenter and the sacrifice on the cross, none of which are images of power. None of this makes Christianity better than Islam but it makes the two fundamentally different and I personnally believe it makes a direct comparison of their development innaplicable. Particually as Islam has already had several peaceful and enlightened periords.

If you want a comparison Judaism is a much better bet but that religion has not had the same political clout as Islam for a long time.

whatever. islam needs to get over that hump that brooks no dissent, justifies death for dissenters. in short it needs to chillout and be treated as less of an absolute by society, so that extremists that insist on punishing dissenters know they will receive no succor from society.

[Tribesman]

whatever. islam needs to get over that hump that brooks no dissent, justifies death for dissenters.

Do you mean that hump that is fundamentalism which a relatively recent thing ?

[JR-]

i mean any islamic society where criminal/civil laws exist, or religious canon enforced by church institutions demand, that apostasy be punished by death, where questioning the koran can mean death, where displaying an image of the big Mo' can mean death.

a society that is openly allowed to question and interpret without censure or penalty from Gov't or parallel institutions is going to be a much healthier society. europe bled by the millions to reach this happy point, i hope it is less costly for the middle east.

[rory_20_uk]

Wahabism isn't that modern. Going on for c. 200 years. Saudi Arabia is incredibly intolerant (giving someone a bible is a serious offence for example), but as they in general only oppress those within their country, buy our weapons and sell us oil we can be happy about it, or at least not bother about it.

In many ways CHristianity was lucky: the true nut-jobs either killed each other or went to America, and those that wanted to convert the world had a further 3 continents to terrorise. Now all the "weaker" religions have been mainly stamped out there's less csope for Islam to have the same outlet without causing severe friction.

[Tribesman]

Wahabism isn't that modern. Going on for c. 200 years.

Did you miss the important word there Rory ?
Like as in Mormonism is a relatively recent take on Christianity .

[rory_20_uk]

If you consider that Muslims for the first few hundred years waged near constant wars in the middle east, over northern africa and into the Indian subcontinent they've never been backward about conquering the Infidel. The face of the Jihad might have changed, but it's following a well trodden road.

Speaking of people that should die under Islam, Here's another discussion group that few other religions get up to.

[Dâriûsh]

Wahabism isn't that modern. Going on for c. 200 years. Saudi Arabia is incredibly intolerant (giving someone a bible is a serious offence for example), but as they in general only oppress those within their country, buy our weapons and sell us oil we can be happy about it, or at least not bother about it.

No Rory, unfortunately they do not just stick to oppressing the people of their own country.

Saudi Arabia has been systematically introducing their intolerant interpretation of Salafism™ throughout the Muslim world for decades. It is religious colonialism. From Indonesia to Central Asia, Europe and the Americas, you can find Saudi-funded Salafi™ agents. Especially Central Asia, where Islam was murderously suppressed by Communism, has been “blessed” with plenty of new Saudi-funded schools and programs.

Heck, I bet Saudi dollars funded the education of those pompous “preachers” at Regent’s Park Mosque.


Not “bothering about it” has given them free reign.

[AlexanderSextus]

If you consider that Muslims for the first few hundred years waged near constant wars in the middle east, over northern africa and into the Indian subcontinent they've never been backward about conquering the Infidel. The face of the Jihad might have changed, but it's following a well trodden road.

Speaking of people that should die under Islam, Here's another discussion group that few other religions get up to.

See thats where my biggest beef is with islam. It was spread by WAR. Christianity was spread by jesus n' pals walking around just talking to people.

(i'm comparing the way the two religions were spread while their respective founders were alive. Otherwise, the above statement would be false, due to the actions of the conquistadors)


I believe i read a verse in the Quran, and again, correct me if i'm wrong, where someone refused to convert to islam, until a scimitar was put to his throat, whereupon he suddenly had a spiritual awakening and accepted the word of muhammad.

it could have been from tha hadith or sira, not sure.

[Paradox]

I'm curious about where you guys get this info about Muslims cutting off throats of non-believers. Well at least not in prophet Muhammad's time, his influence was too strong for that to happen in his lifetime.

[Paradox]

See thats where my biggest beef is with islam. It was spread by WAR. Christianity was spread by jesus n' pals walking around just talking to people.

Did Jesus have the power to raise an army? If so, why didn't he?

[AlexanderSextus]

Did Jesus have the power to raise an army? If so, why didn't he?

he didnt but i really doubt he would have because his message was to love everyone, even your enemies, so raising an army would have been against his entire message.

[AlexanderSextus]

I'm curious about where you guys get this info about Muslims cutting off throats of non-believers. Well at least not in prophet Muhammad's time, his influence was too strong for that to happen in his lifetime.

the guy's throat didnt get cut. the point is that he converted under duress. he was converted by FORCE.

anyone who didnt want to accept Jesus' message was able to make that choice for themself, and walk away.