Syrakousai - A case for a new faction

[A Very Super Market]

Black is the provinces you need to raid, as in hold for any amount of time, and light blue are your victory provinces. An educated guess, but it has been the same for each faction.

[Mulceber]

Oh ok, sorry - haven't been around the EBII forum that long. -M

[NIKOMAHOS]

Great work Hax.
We all hope that Syrakousai will be a new faction in EBII.

[Spartiaths]

Very nice suggestion Hax! Also your post looks like a preview of some sort. Very good job!
I believe that syrakousai will be a very good addition to eb as it was a powerful city at the time.
Also it is one of the factions along with pergamon which i would like to see and play as factions since the announcement of EB II.
But it's up to the EB team. I believe they will do what's best as in EB I!

[Mulceber]

I guess I can see both sides of the argument - on the one hand, it would be really cool to be able to play as the Syrakousaioi, rather than making them just another Eleutheroi province for Roma and Kart-Hadast to conquer.

But on the other hand, if we were to do that, we would have to give them just the city of Syrakousai, since we know from history that they didn't control Messana and they definitely didn't control Lilibeo. I don't think there are any factions in EB that start out with just one city, are there? I'm pretty sure most of them start out with at least 3 So in order to make it work, we'd really have to add at least 2 cities to Sicily and, given the scale of the campaign map, I'm not sure that island could support more cities without becoming ridiculously distorted. Maybe add a couple cities to the central portion of the island, like Leontini and Enna? That way Syrakusai could control one of them - probably Leontini - and the other would be another Eleutheroi province like Messana.

Another possibility, which may or may not have been suggested, would be to make Syrakousai one of the starting regions for the Koinon Hellenon. It's not very historically accurate, but it would make the fight for Sikilia more multi-dimensional, instead of purely being Roma vs. Kart-Hadast. Ultimately though, since Sikilia was not part of the KH, I don't think this would be a very good idea.

So I guess, in short, I support your petition for a Syrakusai faction, Hax, but I think that in order for it to work, we'd have to add another two provinces to Sikilia, at least one of which would have to be part of Syrakousai's starting territory. -M

[Hax]

I don't think there are any factions in EB that start out with just one city, are there?

Hayasdan, Baktria, Casse, Pergamon, Lusotannan, Sweboz, Pontos, Getai.

I've seen Baktria, Sweboz and Lusotannan grown really enormous, so that argument is kinda invalid. I do agree on the amount of settlements in Sikilia, though I'm afraid there's little to be done about that.

Another possibility, which may or may not have been suggested, would be to make Syrakousai one of the starting regions for the Koinon Hellenon. It's not very historically accurate, but it would make the fight for Sikilia more multi-dimensional, instead of purely being Roma vs. Kart-Hadast. Ultimately though, since Sikilia was not part of the KH, I don't think this would be a very good idea.

I really disagree on this point; it would be more logical to make them part of Epiros, though even that would be really pushing it.

[Mulceber]

Hayasdan, Baktria, Casse, Pergamon, Lusotannan, Sweboz, Pontos, Getai.

I've seen Baktria, Sweboz and Lusotannan grown really enormous, so that argument is kinda invalid. I do agree on the amount of settlements in Sikilia, though I'm afraid there's little to be done about that.

Fair enough - I'm not well-versed enough with the factions to make a real judgment anyway. Still, I think a couple more provinces should be added to Sikilia for several reasons:

1. If there was a Syrakousai faction, it would help ensure that Sikilia remains a conflict area, rather than having either the Karthadastim or the Syrakousaioi get bumped off the island early on.
2.It would make the island more profitable (more provinces = more mnai), so that it would be more of a prize for whoever conquered it.
3. It would make a war between Kart-Hadast and Roma more interesting, since there would be more territory on Sikilia to contend for.

I really disagree on this point; it would be more logical to make them part of Epiros, though even that would be really pushing it.

Again, that's why I didn't think it would really be a good idea. It's ahistorical and wouldn't really lead to much of a campaign, as either KH or the Karthadastim would be bumped off the island fairly quickly and then whoever was left would rule the island until the Romani showed up.

[Hax]

1. If there was a Syrakousai faction, it would help ensure that Sikilia remains a conflict area, rather than having either the Karthadastim or the Syrakousaioi get bumped off the island early on.
2.It would make the island more profitable (more provinces = more mnai), so that it would be more of a prize for whoever conquered it.
3. It would make a war between Kart-Hadast and Roma more interesting, since there would be more territory on Sikilia to contend for.

I believe this is where the use of PSF [permanent stone forts] might really come in handy.

[Mulceber]

I believe this is where the use of PSF [permanent stone forts] might really come in handy.

Why not go in the opposite direction? A PSF is basically a town without any infrastructure or population, apart from the military, right? Instead of permanent stone forts, why not create small towns that are too small to have any real MIC or unit-production ability but instead have a bit of infrastructure? Basically, farming communities with a market and maybe a drainage ditch. This would be something for the factions to fight over and would generate a bit of revenue, but wouldn't actually produce any troops. -M

[Meneldil]

Because there can only be 199 (198?) provinces?

[Hax]

Because there can only be 199 (198?) provinces?

199+1 sea province.

[Mediolanicus]

198+2 sea provinces.

Fixed for M2TW.

[Foot]

Fixed for M2TW.

It was believed that because MiNO had two sea provinces, that this was hardcoded. However it was later discovered that a map could be made with only one sea province and 199 land provinces. The EB map will have this ratio, not the MiNO one.

Foot

[keravnos]

For those interested in a possible Syracuse faction, I can't comment on its creation or not.

I have some clues to offer, however, if you care to follow through. (on its military, that is)
-1 epigraph of Solous and Centoripa in Sicily
-... troops sent from the King of Syracuse to his allies, the Romans, to fight in lake Transimene. (I would use an ancient writer to find which were those, if I were you)

please note that the two "hints" as it were aren't related.

[Mediolanicus]

It was believed that because MiNO had two sea provinces, that this was hardcoded. However it was later discovered that a map could be made with only one sea province and 199 land provinces. The EB map will have this ratio, not the MiNO one.

Foot

199+1 then it is

[Bucefalo]

-... troops sent from the King of Syracuse to his allies, the Romans, to fight in lake Transimene. (I would use an ancient writer to find which were those, if I were you)

I only managed to found this quote, don´t know if that is what you were refering.

Polybius. 3.75
They sent also to king Hiero asking for reinforcements, who sent them five hundred Cretan archers and a thousand peltasts.

Also found another quotation from Livy but i think that refers to after the battle of the lake trasimenus

Livy. 22.37
[8] that he had seen foreign auxiliary as well as native light-armed troops in the Roman camps; [9] he had, therefore, sent one thousand archers and slingers, a suitable force against the Baliares and Moors, and other nations which fought with missile weapons,”

[keravnos]

Correct on both counts. Well done!

[Bucefalo]

Thanks, but i could only look it thanks to the web Perseus, really good for those who don´t own a copy of a classic author.

By the way, i was wondering too something about i quoted. Polybius says that the syracusoi sent 500 mercenary cretan archers to support the romans. Were they specifically recruited for that reason or were they more like long time mercenaries?

For example carthage is known to employ permanent mercenaries in his army. I was wondering if these cretans were usually quickly recruited for short campaigns (maybe they were hired only to support the romans) or were hired for long campaigns and they were just sent -still under syracusoi payment- to help the romans.

[keravnos]

Evidence seems to suggest they were recruited for more than a short stint. It was a contract which lasted for many years.

There were stele found in the Anatolian coast, speaking of Cretan mercs' employment and that evidence seemed to suggest that they had married local women and were there for quite some time.

Mamertines occupied Messana after being denied lands to settle in Syracuse, having being mercs to Syracuse for years. There is evidence of Syracuse employing Iberian and Celtic mercs, which too were probably settled among the populace.

The evidence we have of Iberian mercs gaining lands on Syracuse, are from Roman archives awarding them those lands, after Syracuse's capture in 212. It has been suggested that it was them who let the Romans in, not a rival faction of the city and the fact that they were awarded land by the Romans seems to suggest there is some truth to this.

[chairman]

I have just been Polybius' description of the Kleomenic War, especially the section concerning the build-up to the battle of Sellasia. He says that in the year before, Antigonas Doson disbanded his Makedonian troops for the winter, keeping only his mercanaries with him near Sicyon and Korinth, allowing Kleomenes to raid north unthreatened. This retaining of mercanaries for the winter when even the Makedonians were sent home suggests long term contracts.

I also remember reading, I think it was from Sekunda's Seleukid armies: 168-145 BC, that few mercanaries were present at the Daphne parade due to their acting as garrison in the distant cities of the empire, something that even the military settlers were not used for. This suggests a pattern of how Hellenistic rulers viewed the use of mercanaries: not as elite units but as around the clock military forces.

Chairman

[eddy_purpus]

I guess I can see both sides of the argument - on the one hand, it would be really cool to be able to play as the Syrakousaioi, rather than making them just another Eleutheroi province for Roma and Kart-Hadast to conquer.

But on the other hand, if we were to do that, we would have to give them just the city of Syrakousai, since we know from history that they didn't control Messana and they definitely didn't control Lilibeo. I don't think there are any factions in EB that start out with just one city, are there? I'm pretty sure most of them start out with at least 3 So in order to make it work, we'd really have to add at least 2 cities to Sicily and, given the scale of the campaign map, I'm not sure that island could support more cities without becoming ridiculously distorted. Maybe add a couple cities to the central portion of the island, like Leontini and Enna? That way Syrakusai could control one of them - probably Leontini - and the other would be another Eleutheroi province like Messana.

Another possibility, which may or may not have been suggested, would be to make Syrakousai one of the starting regions for the Koinon Hellenon. It's not very historically accurate, but it would make the fight for Sikilia more multi-dimensional, instead of purely being Roma vs. Kart-Hadast. Ultimately though, since Sikilia was not part of the KH, I don't think this would be a very good idea.

So I guess, in short, I support your petition for a Syrakusai faction, Hax, but I think that in order for it to work, we'd have to add another two provinces to Sikilia, at least one of which would have to be part of Syrakousai's starting territory. -M

They (Syracusians) should be controlled by The Koinon Hellenon alliance..
If the Koinon Hellenon controls two huge city rivals Sparte and Athens ? why not control another greek province ?

[A Very Super Market]

Because the KH was a historic alliance at the time, that did not include Syrakousai. Now you're getting into the mentality of the vanilla game, with the absolutely disgusting "Greek Cities" faction.

[Mediterraneo]

Hello everybody,
and thanks to Hax for his work on this.
I strongly support the inclusion of Syrakousai in EBII, for its historical role and my own taste.


I'd like to make a suggestion about its victory conditions:
I'd like its victory conditions to include more dispersed and isolated trade ports (both on islands and peninsulas) than long lines on the coast. An example of the style i feel correct would be quitting something on the illyrian coast (and maybe in northern Italy too) and adding Crete and Kyrene to it.

Why?
Because it never showed an obsession for land control outside Sicily
Because almost every operation it took outside Sicily was either a limited action in support of allies or a naval raid against a specific city (difficult to differentiate between attacking a city or a region in 199 provinces, but....)
Because of it being the first wester hellene naval power, a very popolous city without a permanent citzen army, which supported its strenght and population with the control of the sea routes. Maybe surviving to Rome and Cartago would change its focus, but that would lead Syrakousai to the western mediterranean and rather than towards Illyria (speculative but sensate: it would be the main blank spot in the map without Rome and KH, and within historical area of intervention of Syracousai).
Because it was a naval and commercial economical power with little interest in filling the corners of the seas and more on the islands and straights to control the routes. A port in the Adriatic is very good (to get their products), controlling the whole coastline quite costly, especially for a power that clearly has to think in the "bang per buck" of its military as a mercenary naval power like Syracousai.
Because, in the case of Kyrene, they already messed with their affairs (let me see: an assassin to kill their leader... then a diplomat to bribe their army... yes, the cost went down... Ok, right! Unlce Agatokles did it this way!)


I go on with a separate point on the victory conditions. I see very well the necessity for Syracusai of destrying Cartago, the direct competence in Sicily, in commerce, in route control, and at few tens of kilometers from it. You could even say that Syracousai cannot win without outlast KH. But I feel that it could have less necessity of burning Rome: it is the enemy of my enemy, and against them the only contrast point is about Sicily control. Winning that control (and that of Taras and Rhegium too on the way) resolves the problem: that's not a centuries long feud between Hellenes an Phoenicians, fighting battles in the very same day of Salamina and the like (with the added western Sicily punic allies that were believed of troian ancestry and that)


What are the accessible sources about the Syracusan foreign policy when not costricted by the presence of stronger enemies on "homeland" Sicily? That is, besides its link with Corinth?
I hope this can be useful, althought it ended up far longer than I thought!

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By the way, I do not say "Cartago" for Kart Hadast because I'm an etnocentric italian speaker, it is because i cannot spell it....

[Tanit]

By the way, if Syracuse were to become a faction, not only would Hiero be the faction leader, but among the family members would be an 18 year old Archimedes who was just finishing school in Alexandria and preparing to come home in 272 BC.

[Alsatia]

Syracuse would be fun but it also adds some goal to an island of emptiness in the game unless you want to destroy the Qarthadastim. btw since Syracuse had those mirror towers to burn off ships, should there be some difficulty to blocade the port? But that seems especially unlikely.

[A Very Super Market]

lolwut?

I'm sorry, those mirrors are a myth. That never happened. It is physically impossible anyways, and if you don't have the time to read a bunch of textbooks about it, you can always watch freaking Mythbusters. That is how far that myth has been disproven.

[anubis88]

lolwut?

I'm sorry, those mirrors are a myth. That never happened. It is physically impossible anyways, and if you don't have the time to read a bunch of textbooks about it, you can always watch freaking Mythbusters. That is how far that myth has been disproven.

Yeah i saw that episode too. But guess what? I've been reading TODAY a study of hannibal and the second punic war, and ofcourse the professor writing it said that syracuse was so difficult to capture becouse of those mirrors

[Tanit]

A lot of experiments have been done regarding the mirrors. In all cases it depends on the conditions involved. Those against the mirrors point out that it is hard to aim, requires clear skies, and needs too much time to set a ship on fire. Those for the mirrors have done their own experiments and claim things such as properly built ships with pitch or tar are easier to set on fire than those without. Its an ongoing debate.

[oudysseos]

Mythbusters are entertainers: MIT are scientists. They have successfully built both Archimedean mirror death rays and a Da Vinci/Archimedes steam gun. I doubt that the Syracusans actually did burn any Roman ships, but the idea is not ludicrous.

[Atilius]

Polybios, writing about 60 years after the siege of Syracuse, makes no mention of mirrors or steam guns. He praises Archimedes extravagantly, but refers only to crossbows, scorpions, catapults, articulated stone-droppers, and ship-lifting grapnels.