Why do people insist on being such bums?

[Fragony]

+1

I find often the people that stick with the formal customs etc are actually often bitchy and not nice people, I would rather just have a genuine conversation with someone. Screw niceties, when you have a problem with someone then deal with it, it is disrespectful to them to pretend otherwise.

Move to the Netherlands, we take pride in bluntness, sparing someones feelings isn't apreciated. It insults us in fact, we feel treated like a fool if you don't speak your mind.

[Tellos Athenaios]

We do?

[rajpoot]

wow that brings back memories. I don't know if it is a feature of British schools (or even more local than that), but we always had a weird thing where the teacher would come in and say "morning class", to which we would all reply in unison in some sort of really creepy tone "good moooorning misses x". The weird thing was we almost sung it, you draw out the ooo in morning and raise your pitch as you say it, like Australians do at the end of a sentence. Damn that was weird thinking back.

Oh oh, we had to do it too.I used to really hate it....the sing song thing I mean, not the 'wishing the teacher goodmorning' part. It was supposed to be a part of inculcating good values in children and to teach them that they ought to respect their elders.
Of course once the teacher started teaching, the paper planes started flying and all thought of respect was forgotten.

[Fragony]

We do?

Yep, you don't travel much do you.

[Tellos Athenaios]

No, I just think this whole blunt is good sentiment is rather overstated.

[rajpoot]

A world where everyone states their feelings openly, just so that they don't have to lie....a place where everyone is absolutely candid. Such a world would be a very simple and hassle free place to stay. No trying to read between lines, no sulking friends/girlfriend/relatives.....Plus people will actually learn their faults and shortcoming a lot quicker and either deal with them.....
Then give this be blunt and truthful thing another century or so, and the natural evolution will be people murdering each other in the streets just because they never learned to mask their feelings or keep restraint, and the truthful thing to do is do away with the chap you hate because that is what you want to do.....
I'm not saying that being genuine is wrong, or being frank is wrong, but one must judge as to what should be the limit. For instance in my eyes, being polite, even if one does not give a damn, is not wrong as long as it makes the person in front happy. It's like lying for a good cause...

[Dîn-Heru]

This is a clear case of clueless people meddling with their own personal opinions without having any backing for their position in literature. Otherwise known as the grade "F". There are an enourmous amount of things a teacher can do to instill respect and get a calm classroom, having some idiot politician force us to use a specific one has got to be one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard.

I found the article, but I was right, it was only in a pay-per-view pdf. Costs 15 kr for the page, but I don't think it gives much more information than the link I gave you.

Well, the anarchist in me agree that there should be as little interference from central government as possible, so as long as it works I do not see why the teacher/individual school should not be able to use the method of their choice in order to make the classroom a good environment for all involved. Well, I only wanted to hear the opinion of a teacher on the issue since it is somewhat related to the thread. (Could have asked my aunt, but I won't see her before christmas and by that time I probably would have forgotten about it anyway... I think she would agree with you as well come to think of it.)

[Fragony]

No, I just think this whole blunt is good sentiment is rather overstated.

Takes a foreigners view. Believe me when I say that the way we interact is kinda 'odd' to outsiders, they are amazed (and often appalled), you don't notice it because you are from here.

http://forum.expatica.com/lofiversio...hp/t85620.html

count the times you think 'what's wrong with that'

[naut]

Wearing chinos and boating shoes is what makes you an ass.

Yep.

I usually just use "mate" to greet anyone I meet.

Mate, me too. Then again. Aussies tend to swear a fair bit too. I only realised how much we actually swear when I was overseas with mates.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Takes a foreigners view. Believe me when I say that the way we interact is kinda 'odd' to outsiders, they are amazed (and often appalled), you don't notice it because you are from here.

http://forum.expatica.com/lofiversio...hp/t85620.html

count the times you think 'what's wrong with that'

Actually, I thought a lot of "yep, that was rude of them". But I was rather more specifically referring to the taking of the giving & taking equation. In my experience that really isn't all it's cracked up to be.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Fragony is this you? (From the link you supplied)

As a Dutchman I must admit that all of you are right. But hey! I think that most Dutch are assholes too, so why bother. Can't argue with assholes. Complete waste of time. However, there is no such joy as to be a complete asshole to another asshole. Don't bother being polite. If you want something, demand. They think you're an asshole anyway so why restrain? Most Dutch are not even aware of the impact on brittle souls caused by some straight a to b remarks.

The writing style is strikingly similar.

[Fragony]

Actually, I thought a lot of "yep, that was rude of them". But I was rather more specifically referring to the taking of the giving & taking equation. In my experience that really isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Well that mythical place called 'the rest of the world' disagrees with that. The Dutch have less social restraints and are secretly kinda proud of that when it's pointed out. Americans are worst, terribly overfriendly to us, but they are actually really friendly, we are all ewwwwwwwww when they do that watchawantwth?. Fun read 'The Undutchables' written by an American who moved to here, might find a few things you never noticed about yourself, what's completely normal to us can be staggeringly rude if you didn't grow up here.

edit: no that's not me, I never swear

[HoreTore]

Well, the anarchist in me agree that there should be as little interference from central government as possible, so as long as it works I do not see why the teacher/individual school should not be able to use the method of their choice in order to make the classroom a good environment for all involved.

It's not about "central government interference". It's about what works and what doesn't. If a teacher finds that doing this works, then do it. If it doesn't, why do it? Because I can garantuee you, it will not have an effect everywhere. But bah, I expect no more from a city council dominated by right-wingers.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well that mythical place called 'the rest of the world' disagrees with that.

I'm not sure I'm following you (or vice versa here?), so I guess I'll have to rephrase: what I meant was the thread was full of recited samples of what might be termed plain rudeness (if not stronger). But at the same time I'm wondering how much truth there is in the notion that “blunt->rude is good” or even useful in everyday conversation, since I don't buy into the idea that Dutch people are actually appreciating being told blunty that they're a rude, ignorant and unkempt lot...

and are secretly kinda proud of that when it's pointed out.

Possibly, didn't contest that one.

Americans are worst, terribly overfriendly to us, but they are actually really friendly, we are all ewwwwwwwww when they do that watchawantwth?

True, although part of that is pure idiom. Depending where you go, you won't ever hear the locals say they like something, rather they do not dislike it. And really that's saying the same but differently.

[Fragony]

If I misunderstood the question you must have put it wrongly ;)

It's just that if you don't speak your mind and crap on their head you are being dishonest and wasting their time. That is a pretty unique feat in the Dutch mindset. We don't do pleasant we go in with a stretched leg, even as close as Belgium it's completely different.

[Hosakawa Tito]

I mean is it really that hard to shower, shave, and put on some decent threads?

Have some pride man.

I realize these bastages can wear what they want but it contributes to an impolite and slobbish society.

That’s another thing when I was a boy my parents would hit me in the back of the head if I didn't call someone sir or mam no matter what their standing.

People call me dude left and right these days, now if I'm knocking back a few with the lads that's fine. I known those boys all my life but when I'm at work or school show me the same damn respect I show you son.

Some of these people have kids to and they are the worst of all. I never acted out in public because I was scared my parents would murder me rather than face embarassment

Hell in a hand basket

There should be no ulterior reason to be respectful, courteous, and polite other than it's the right thing to do. It's not contingent upon perceived social status or upon possible benefits gained by behaving decently. If it is, then one's moral compass needs recalibration.

[Ser Clegane]

We don't do pleasant we go in with a stretched leg

I would agree that in general Dutch seem to be very straight forward and "blunt" in the communication (whether this is a great thing or not obviously might depend on the situation/setting). In my experience this becomes even more obvious in business meetings than in "normal" interactions.
And this assessments comes from a German - I don't think we are widely known for beating around the bush either...

[HoreTore]

And this assessments comes from a German - I don't think we are widely known for beating around the bush either...

You're widely known for doing lots of weird stuff around the bush.........

[Dîn-Heru]

It's not about "central government interference". It's about what works and what doesn't. If a teacher finds that doing this works, then do it. If it doesn't, why do it? Because I can garantuee you, it will not have an effect everywhere. But bah, I expect no more from a city council dominated by right-wingers.

I should probably clarify, when I said central goverment I meant the city council in this case (although it is applicable if it should become a national standard as well.) Just for the record, we are in agreement. Let the teachers do what works and let them be the judges of whether or not it works.

[Fragony]

I would agree that in general Dutch seem to be very straight forward and "blunt" in the communication (whether this is a great thing or not obviously might depend on the situation/setting). In my experience this becomes even more obvious in business meetings than in "normal" interactions.
And this assessments comes from a German - I don't think we are widely known for beating around the bush either...

I can explain that for you, work and play are strictly seperated. If you want to get serious frowning try talking about your job in your spare-time, nobody cares about your job. Likewise in business meetings it's all business. They will be totally different in social situations, that's time off after all

[HoreTore]

I should probably clarify, when I said central goverment I meant the city council in this case

So did I