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Thread: I'm Strugling with settlement management :(

  1. #31
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm Strugling with settlement management :(

    But there's nothing you can do to stop the 'toga' army. Egypt always has several spies...err... I mean diplomats hanging around Cyrene, and often they can and will bribe it to their side. I had it happen to me in a Macedon campaign....more than once
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  2. #32
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm Strugling with settlement management :(

    Britain is my bane when it comes to bribes. I normally give diplomats "diplomatic immunity", meaning I don't assassinate them. Once a faction has bribed a unit or city of mine, their diplomats are fair game for my assassins. Speaking of agents, and back to settlement management, do my own spies help public order in my cities, or are they only good for revealing enemy spies causing problems, or would you know about that? Many times it seems that they mainly just expose enemy spies. If my garrison is what I consider sufficient, I train a spy in a troubled city, and many times the next turn an enemy spy is kicked out. Typically public order below about 50% is signs that a spy is involved.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  3. #33
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm Strugling with settlement management :(

    I never give diplomats a free pass unless they are from a good trading partner or an ally. Best to kill them before they become virtually untouchable (usually above 5 laurettes).

    Your own spies do nothing to raise loyalty, but if they're good enough, they can keep it from being lowered. If the enemy spy has a high subterfuge skill, more than one spy will be needed. Also, some family members have a high security trait, particularly your faction leader and faction heir. If you have a city where you strongly suspect the presence of an enemy spy, move a family member with personal security traits there, and combined with one or more spies, you have a good chance to kick the !@#$% out.

    And don't forget the assassin. You have to kill the sneak before he reenters the city.

    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 07-22-2014 at 04:30.
    High Plains Drifter

  4. #34
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm Strugling with settlement management :(

    At least assassins are easy to kill, and a good way to improve your own assassins. Egypt and Rome seem to make the most. If your assassin is good enough, he can even nail enemy spies, I have done it before, must have been a worthless spy anyway. Does the level of market affect the ability of your agents, it seems to me that it does.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  5. #35
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm Strugling with settlement management :(

    Does the level of market affect the ability of your agents, it seems to me that it does.
    No, it does not. In Shogun 1, for instance, the level of your ninja barracks does give you better assassins up to a starting skill of +2. But not the case in RTW. An oversight by the devs, IMHO

    Although I have never done any empirical testing, it's the level of Academy that seems to give you a better chance at a "Subterfuge Genius". And if you have a faction leader with the Agents special (acquired by attaining a certain level of successful subterfuge attempts), then you stand a pretty good chance at getting good spies and assassins from the get-go. At least that's been my experience.....
    High Plains Drifter

  6. #36

    Default Re: I'm Strugling with settlement management :(

    Am I correct in thinking the AI only creates spies and diplomats in the enemy capital? It seems to me that they only approach from that direction. In that case a judicially placed assassin would do the trick.

    Nice one about the .txt file and original owner. It's a while since I lost a city to rebellion I didn't want to lose. Maybe I don't take enough chances :) The AI is pretty predictable. You get to know the cities a particular faction likes sending spies to, so you can help reduce rebellion by stationing a spy or two in those cities. I think it is easy to spot cities that have enemy spies present. After a few turns, unrest should be zero (higher if the city has built-in unrest or has a duff general as governor).

    Vincent - 'Egypt army will have some siege weapons in them, and they can really hurt a phalanx'

    I like watching the effect of onagers etc. but because they are inaccurate I think they have little effect on battle outcomes. A present surgeon reduces losses, and you can use loose formation (provided you are not under direct attack - and if you are, they are just as likely to hit the enemy). I've only played as Egypt once, but crazy chariots in cities and population issues mean I won't play them - no need to mention ZPG again RS :)
    Last edited by williamsiddell; 07-22-2014 at 08:41.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm Strugling with settlement management :(

    but because they are inaccurate I think they have little effect on battle outcomes.
    Aye, inaccurate they are, but did you notice their knack for killing enemy generals? There have been several threads around here about that, and the overall experience was that onager projectiles are drawn to general units like moths to a flame

    After a few turns, unrest should be zero
    Unrest can persist for many turns for several reasons...some cities have a permanent, built-in unrest; there are culture and distance-to-capital issues; your governor can have traits that promote unrest; and the one that persists if none of the above holds...devastation. There will always be unrest as long as devastation is present, which slowly decreases over time as the devastation clears up.
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 07-22-2014 at 15:32.
    High Plains Drifter

  8. #38

    Default Re: I'm Strugling with settlement management :(

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    but did you notice their knack for killing enemy generals?
    The answer is no. Mind you I usually line up my generals at the back of the formation and my phalanx usually takes most of the hits. If that's the prevailing view I'll go along with it.



    There will always be unrest as long as devastation is present, which slowly decreases over time as the devastation clears up.
    That's new to me also. I presume the devastation doesn't need to completely go before order is gained. This is asking a lot - is it possible to clear devastation up quicker?
    Last edited by williamsiddell; 07-22-2014 at 17:21.

  9. #39
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm Strugling with settlement management :(

    If the onagers are not on flaming projectile, they actually don't cause that much problems for my phalanx, because of the sheer size of the units, a hit only causes one or two casualties, and I usually have at least four units of phalanx. Archers are more deadly. Flaming onager projectiles are very deadly, as I found out from my own friendly fire. I turned on flame, fired, the first shot hit the unit right in front of the onager and took out eighteen men. I don't use flame anymore, at least from onagers.
    it's the level of Academy that seems to give you a better chance at a "Subterfuge Genius"
    Makes sense, towns that have that level of Market will also have an academy. I will watch with my Britons to see what happens. And no, I have not noticed how onagers target generals, have only seen that happen once, but I usually target my onagers on easier targets, enemy siege weapons or infantry.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  10. #40
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm Strugling with settlement management :(

    If that's the prevailing view I'll go along with it.
    I don't believe anyone ever did tests on this. There were a couple of discussions about it some years ago, and more people noticed that onagers have an uncanny knack for hitting enemy generals than not. I am one that believes they do....I've seen their very first shot hit an opposing general and his bodyguard more than once.....and I've been on the receiving end, as well

    I presume the devastation doesn't need to completely go before order is gained. This is asking a lot - is it possible to clear devastation up quicker?
    As long as any devastation remains, it contributes to unrest. I've never bothered to do the math to figure out how much x amount of devastation = y amount of unrest. You can check the level of devastation in the city information folder. The rate devastation clears is a function of how bad it was to begin with. More armies tromping around the cropland= higher devastation=longer recovery time. It's one of the reasons I stopped having a support army for one that's laying siege...unless, of course, that army is under distinct threat from the outside. Also one reason I began to autocalc most sieges after building all the appropriate siege equipment. Rather than take 10 turns to assault a huge city, for instance, I take 2-3 turns to build equipment and assault immediately.

    There is nothing you can do to hasten the progress of recovery. The game has its own internal formula for it. You can, however, limit the amount of damage preceding a siege.
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 07-22-2014 at 21:16.
    High Plains Drifter

  11. #41

    Default Re: I'm Strugling with settlement management :(

    I too have taken hits on a general's bodyguard but never had a general killed by an onager. It would be easy to believe generals are targeted.

    It's a shame upgrading a farm doesn't reduce devastation. Just goes to show how people do things differently. I charge in right away if the gates are open and only wait the one turn before assaulting otherwise. The AI seems to leave even huge cities with small garrisons.

  12. #42

    Default Re: I'm Strugling with settlement management :(

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    I turned on flame, fired, the first shot hit the unit right in front of the onager and took out eighteen men.
    That sounds like a painful experience - especially for your phalanx. Maybe your onager was too close up, or was it on a reverse slope? I think they work best on high ground.

    I only ever have one academy. What bothers me is being forced to make a general hang around for several turns.

  13. #43
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm Strugling with settlement management :(

    Was not reverse slope, was on flat ground. It is just the inaccuracy of flaming projectiles, the unit couldn't have been more than two or three onager lengths in front (laying the onager lengthwise). Reverse slope does not really seem to help, it seems onagers can hit me on the reverse slope anyway. Academy is one of the last things I build. I hate playing as Egypt, they get mad really quickly, and frankly, the units are not very good until you hit Pharoah's Guard, I guess Nile Spearmen can hold a line, and Egypt's cav STINKS. Chariots in cities is very annoying and except for the intimidation factor, very ineffective. Even regular cav is not very good in a city.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  14. #44

    Default Re: I'm Strugling with settlement management :(

    By reverse slope I mean set up on ground lower than your front line. I remember once chasing the enemy up a mountainside I stopped to give my missile units time to soften them up before applying the coup-de-grace. Then I started wondering why the enemy didn't appear to be taking casualties. Turned out my archers and slingers were firing into the ground :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    the units are not very good until you hit Pharoah's Guard
    Pharoahs guards and archers are some of the best units in the game aint they. I don't like facing either of them. The guards are a match for armoured hoplites and where archers are present I have to sally forth to destroy them (exposing my cavalry and maybe even some generals) before they do too much damage.

    Even regular cav is not very good in a city
    Aye. Especially generals, because attack with those before the enemy is wavering can be suicide. Sometimes though it has to be done - and I keep my fingers crossed.

  15. #45
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm Strugling with settlement management :(

    I typically only send my general on the attack when the battle hits a critical point, or to chase down routing enemies. The problem with Egypt is if you try to deal with their archers, ie with cav, their chariots wipe out your cav. Talking about that rebel army that spawns where you can't reach them, there is a place in Spain like that as well. Does anyone know why in a battle with regular stone walls, many times the enemy with ladders will stop for a long time before putting the ladders up, all the while being attacked by the towers and missile troops? I have had it happen a lot, the enemy will just stop right in front of the walls. After a while, they finally put the ladders up, after having taken heavy casualties?
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  16. #46

    Default Re: I'm Strugling with settlement management :(

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    many times the enemy with ladders will stop for a long time before putting the ladders up
    All I can think of is something you've probably seen in your own army. The entire unit moves up except for one that is going round in circles in the distance :)

  17. #47
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm Strugling with settlement management :(

    The entire unit moves up except for one that is going round in circles in the distance
    Bingo.

    Flaming onager projectiles are very deadly, as I found out from my own friendly fire.
    Never, ever put units directly in front of your onagers. They will hit your own troops at some point
    I always put them in the center of my line with no fronting units and back them up with a couple of cav units. AI cavalry just can't seem to resist such an easy target, so you need to intercept them quickly (and turn off fire-at-will briefly so you don't toast your own cavalry...)
    High Plains Drifter

  18. #48
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm Strugling with settlement management :(

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    Never, ever put units directly in front of your onagers. They will hit your own troops at some point
    I always put them in the center of my line with no fronting units and back them up with a couple of cav units. AI cavalry just can't seem to resist such an easy target, so you need to intercept them quickly (and turn off fire-at-will briefly so you don't toast your own cavalry...)
    Been a while since this thread has been updated, so I figured to go with some of my own experiences on the onagers issue.
    I will use onagers with flame in an army. I put them right behind (literally touching) a unit in my front line, they seem to be safe that close. Without flame I will have them farther back. Ballista I have in the front, and when the enemy get close I hit the white flag unit with them, then tell them to stop. When the coast is clear, I order them back to the ballista. Quicker and safer than turning the ballista around and moving them behind your line. Or I move my lines in front of the ballista and take them off fire at will. All depends on the situation.
    I have actually decided to take advantage of the supposed tendency for onagers to take out generals. I can't say that they target the leader any more than any other unit, they seem pretty random in what part of the formation they hit so I think hitting the general is random. I have seen it happen multiple times, but again, I think that is random.
    I actually had my Greek archers nail a Cataphract Armenian General, actually the faction leader, as he was coming up. I was focused on another army coming up and was wondering who my archers were firing at. Then it showed the enemy general getting killed. He was the only man in the unit they dropped, out of a 40+ bodyguard. I was happy about that.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  19. #49
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm Strugling with settlement management :(

    when the enemy get close I hit the white flag unit with them, then tell them to stop. When the coast is clear, I order them back to the ballista. Quicker and safer than turning the ballista around and moving them behind your line
    Pretty slick trick, there Have to admit I've never thought of that one...though it probably requires a general with above average leadership/morale skills because the rally button doesn't always halt fleeing units with reliability
    High Plains Drifter

  20. #50
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm Strugling with settlement management :(

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    Pretty slick trick, there Have to admit I've never thought of that one...though it probably requires a general with above average leadership/morale skills because the rally button doesn't always halt fleeing units with reliability
    Actually, I don't use the rally. When you hit the white flag button, those units are still in your control, it is not as if they are routing. If you don't do anything, they run off the battlefield, but you can order them to stop just by using the halt button or selecting them and telling them to move somewhere. They typically don't get to fire again anyway, because the enemy has engaged your troops by then.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

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