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Thread: How do you solve a problem like Tanais?

  1. #31

    Default Re: How do you solve a problem like Tanais?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    The AI in RTW is so pathetically timid.
    Aye, if it's a small garrison you can successfully besiege with anything. For instance if you have a choice of cities to attack, try besieging the one with the smallest garrison with a duff unit while you attack the other - therefore preventing any further nuisance builds.

    One thing I've considered but never done is: Say you are about to declare war on Germania and it has half a dozen cities. Send in five peasants and place each near a city. Then besiege all the cities at once :) Watch while the AI armies run about like headless chickens!

  2. #32
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you solve a problem like Tanais?

    Send in five peasants and place each near a city. Then besiege all the cities at once :) Watch while the AI armies run about like headless chickens!


    Not even remotely historical, but probably a boatload of fun.........
    High Plains Drifter

  3. #33

    Default Re: How do you solve a problem like Tanais?

    History is made every day :) Trouble is my neigbours will nearly always attack me before I could set up the fun.

  4. #34
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you solve a problem like Tanais?

    Quote Originally Posted by williamsiddell View Post
    Watch while the AI armies run about like headless chickens!
    Because they don't know who to attack? That won't work with Egypt or Rome, because they always have multiple double-stack + 2 armies running around. Destroy one and three more magically appear from nowhere. And why does the AI get to have their armies double-stack plus 2 anyway? By the way, the AI is not timid. They will attack my armies in the field with 3-1 odds against them. Brainless is more what I would say. I am seeing something weird, huge AI armies not doing anything. I took Halicarnasus. Egypt had a double-stack army by the bridge, and just sat their while I upgraded from town to large town to city, and built military buildings to retrain my army. Then finally they besieged Sardis instead (and got wiped out). I will besiege a town, and a large army won't come to relieve the town, but will instead go off and do something else. That does not happen all the time, but I have seen it several times recently. Not that I mind.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  5. #35
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you solve a problem like Tanais?

    Most of what you just described has to do with pathfinding problems, something that was not a part of the game until the 3-D map came along. At the beginning of each turn the AI assesses what each stack it has can do....and sometimes that list has absolutely nothing to with where the current stack is standing. It may have tasked that Big E stack with something on the far side of the board, and the AI could not figure out how to get it there, or the target was not within its line-of-sight and again the AI had no idea what to do.

    By the way, the AI is not timid.
    With this I disagree. Case in point: Macedon campaign (VH/H)...I have a temporary truce with the GC due to a concerted effort by both Dacia and Thrace wanting me dead and gone. I don't trust the GC as far as I can spit, but I simply have to take care of the massive intrusions on my borders first. The Brutii have taken Appolonia and Thermon and are sniffing around Greece looking for more targets. The GC place a huge army led by their current faction leader who has four command stars (at least 15 units of hoplites and such, IIRC) onto a fleet and dump them next to Thermon. The Romans have left a minor general and two Hastati units there, and I had just destroyed their main army before heading north. A ready-made situation for the GC to easily get Thermon back, right? Wrong! The faction leader and his army just stand there for at least 6 or 7 turns doing absolutely nothing. Now I know auto-clac is skewed in favor of the Romans but holy hell, 15 hoplites and a 4-star general should have taken that city with ease. Nope. Eventually, the faction leader dies leaving the stack still standing there until a relief force from Tarantum lands and defeats the Greeks. Just plain dumb

    If this had been Shogun, the AI would've thrown everything but their bamboo floor mats at the city in order to recapture it. There are countless more examples I could give, but I don't want to bore anyone to tears.

    The RTW AI is pathetically timid......
    High Plains Drifter

  6. #36
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you solve a problem like Tanais?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    The RTW AI is pathetically timid......
    I am still not convinced, but whatever. We each get to make our own inferences. I would just say they are stupid. Does the autocalc really give Rome an advantage? I know I read that the Amazons in Themiskyra get an autocalc advantage, they are supposed to win with up to 5:1 odds against them, I think it was. The AI did seem more aggressive in EB, that was when four Lusotannan units of Lusotannan Spearmen would attack my armies of fourteen units, with ten of them medium/heavy infantry, Hastati/Principes/Triarii. Needless to say, I owned them. You keep talking about Shogun-it is not considered abandonware yet, is it, ie, nobody has a legal free download available? I don't think I have seen it in the stores.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  7. #37
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you solve a problem like Tanais?

    Does the autocalc really give Rome an advantage?
    How many times have you ever seen an AI-led faction attack an AI-led Roman faction and win? Very, very rare even at odds stacked in favor of the non-Roman faction. I once saw a full stack of Gauls best led by their 10-star faction leader lose to a minor Roman general and a half-stack of Auxillia, Light Auxillia, and a few Cohort I's I shouldn't state it as fact that auto-calc is skewed towards the Romans, but set up a few custom battles (AI vs AI) against Roman troops and see how many times the Romans lose.....

    Shogun I publishing rights are owned by a company called Sold Out Software. Don't know if they are still producing discs for the game. IIRC, CA re-released the game with some sort of Shogun "Gold Edition" but don't quote me on that....

    I still prefer it to RTW despite the "Risk-style" campaign map. You have to do far more planning on how to develop your infrastructure (with four seasons, payday only comes in the fall) or you may find yourself out of money. The battles are much, much tougher than RTW, and repelling a multi-stack invasion can take 1 1/2 to 2 hours....real time. It's just epic, at times. You will fight some battles where you absolutely have to win or face extinction. Now if that doesn't add excitement to a game I don't know what will.....The AI is smart and as aggressive as a mad hornet. Most people don't care for it much because unit selection is slim, and the campaign map is 2-D. But oh the tactics involved......

    I remember when a year had gone by after the release of RTW, players were coming back to the STW forum and whining because they were getting their asses kicked by the Shogun AI. Things they could get away with in RTW, were not so in STW. Weather actually means something on the battlefield (fighting in dense fog is a blast), and the music tracks by Jeff VanDyke are awesome. If you can find a copy, and get it to run on your rig, it's worth the experience.
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 07-27-2014 at 04:58.
    High Plains Drifter

  8. #38
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you solve a problem like Tanais?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    I once saw a full stack of Gauls best led by their 10-star faction leader lose to a minor Roman general and a half-stack of Auxillia, Light Auxillia, and a few Cohort I's I shouldn't state it as fact that auto-calc is skewed towards the Romans, but set up a few custom battles (AI vs AI) against Roman troops and see how many times the Romans lose.....
    Well, if there are a lot of Warband, start one routing, the rest rout. Same with Eastern Infantry. The pila alone can do a lot of damage. I have had a full (minus the men lost from the siege), rested unit of Phalanx Pikemen, in my own huge city, rout just from two volleys of pila, their first engagement of the day. I'm not sure, but I think it was from Praetorian Cohort. Still, without even getting involved? Good thing they were supported by another unit. But even Auxilia and ELC are nothing to sneeze at, they will hold up to just about anything anybody else has, barring elite units such as Praetorian/Urban Cohort, Sacred Band or (I wouldn't call them elite) Pharaoh's Guards.

    I will have to check out Shogun sometime, though it probably won't happen anytime soon. There is a Shogun 2 as well, right? So in that, would you recommend using real-life tactics? I try to do that in Rome anyway, but depends on who you are, it is not always feasible, ie, my Greeks hitting a pinned enemy with Greek Cav is not the same as doing it with Companion Cav like Macedon or Seleucia can.
    Last edited by Vincent Butler; 02-01-2017 at 22:09. Reason: separating quote
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  9. #39
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you solve a problem like Tanais?

    Well, if there are a lot of Warband, start one routing, the rest rout.
    Not the case here. I said 'Gauls best' which means Foresters, Chosen Swordmen, etc. With a 10-star general against a neophyte, the Gauls should have won IMO....

    The pila alone can do a lot of damage
    As is in RTW, Roman infantry get too many pila volleys (four or five, IIRC). Historically, they carried two pila

    I've modded out any Roman infantry past Cohort I. The Lorica Segmentata armor (the main difference between ELC and Praetorian/Urban) did not appear until around 100AD. And that means when I play a Roman faction, Cohort I is the best I get. I've removed Pharaoh's Guard and Pharaoh's Bowmen from the Big E's roster (really bad run-on with the whole 'mummy' look for Egypt...they were Ptolemaic Greeks for cryin' out loud), and made numerous other changes (like disabling Red Sea ports so Egypt doesn't waste money creating fleets where they can't participate in the game), and many other balancing changes.

    To play Shogun I, you pretty much have to have a liking for the period, and prefer strategy and tactics over fluff and graphics (although the battlefields are 3-D and can be awesome to fight on). Shogun II has more diverse unit rosters, naval battles, and complicated tech trees. CA did a very nice job with the sequel, unlike Rome II.

    Play to have fun rather than emphasizing historical aspects, IMHO
    High Plains Drifter

  10. #40

    Default Re: How do you solve a problem like Tanais?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    Eventually, the faction leader dies leaving the stack still standing there

    Ha ha - I've seen the like often.

    In my current GC VH/VH game I've just besieged Tarantum the last Brutii city (I'll take it next turn). Meanwhile they've been besieging Appoliona (with my usual one peasant garrison - at the risk of upsetting some!) for several turns with a large army. I'm moving an army up but not got there yet. It'll be interesting to see what the AI does next.

    At turn end will it 1) jump into the nearby boat to support Tarentum, 2) Assault my city, or 3) sit there and become rebels. I'm on tenterhooks.

    p.s. since only we three are posting - I take it you're both US of A, I'm in Scotland.
    Last edited by williamsiddell; 07-27-2014 at 10:11.

  11. #41
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you solve a problem like Tanais?

    p.s. since only we three are posting - I take it you're both US of A, I'm in Scotland.
    There aren't many left who still play vanilla RTW...and yes, I live in the Motor City.

    And a long overdue....welcome aboard mate...
    High Plains Drifter

  12. #42

    Default Re: How do you solve a problem like Tanais?

    Ta.

    Motor City - I'm impressed! Smokey Robinson and co. I'm in Perth - former crowning place of the kings of Scotland.

    I've just played the turn mentioned above. Gold stars to any who guessed 3) changed to rebels. That was a size 20 army with 2 generals - a faction heir and another I assassinated. Now I have to get rid of a 14 strong roman rebel army.
    Last edited by williamsiddell; 07-27-2014 at 18:14.

  13. #43
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you solve a problem like Tanais?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    As is in RTW, Roman infantry get too many pila volleys (four or five, IIRC). Historically, they carried two pila

    I've modded out any Roman infantry past Cohort I. The Lorica Segmentata armor (the main difference between ELC and Praetorian/Urban) did not appear until around 100AD. And that means when I play a Roman faction, Cohort I is the best I get. I've removed Pharaoh's Guard and Pharaoh's Bowmen from the Big E's roster (really bad run-on with the whole 'mummy' look for Egypt...they were Ptolemaic Greeks for cryin' out loud), and made numerous other changes (like disabling Red Sea ports so Egypt doesn't waste money creating fleets where they can't participate in the game), and many other balancing changes.

    To play Shogun I, you pretty much have to have a liking for the period, and prefer strategy and tactics over fluff and graphics (although the battlefields are 3-D and can be awesome to fight on). Shogun II has more diverse unit rosters, naval battles, and complicated tech trees. CA did a very nice job with the sequel, unlike Rome II.

    Play to have fun rather than emphasizing historical aspects, IMHO
    Asian history is not my interest. I just know not to get involved in a land war in Asia. As to the pila, I have only observed two volleys, at least from my own. If there are extra, it is because some of the legionaries are out of range. The amount is just given to the unit, so some may throw more, but then some will throw less. The computer probably gives their guys more.
    since only we three are posting - I take it you're both US of A, I'm in Scotland.
    Anchorage, Alaska. I hear Perth, I think Australia. Didn't know there was a Perth, Scotland. My family traces back to Kilkenny County, Ireland (though we were Normans who moved to Ireland), my avatar is my family coat of arms.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  14. #44

    Default Re: How do you solve a problem like Tanais?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    Anchorage, Alaska
    Bet you're sick of your mum saying 'wrap up warm'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    Didn't know there was a Perth
    Aye. Google Perth and you get the Australian one. I suppose it would be huge city in RTW and my Perth a large town.

    We're all mongrels. Armies have marched back and forth through Europe for millennia.

  15. #45
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you solve a problem like Tanais?

    You said you modded out anything past ELC. Praetorian/Urban don't get Lorica Segmentata, do they? I thought they had the muscled cuirass? Technically, the Praetorians would have been your imperial bodyguard, so the way the game uses them is not realistic though the PC itself is (I know that is old news). Julius Caesar talked about having the tenth legion as his Praetorian Cohort when he went to fight Ariovistus. I don't know how realistic the Urban Cohort were, probably not the elites that they are in the game, more likely the garrison would have been the Urban Cohort. I never saw "The Mummy", so I will take your word that the Pharaoh's Bowmen/Guards were unrealistic. Egypt did have good archers, so it would be nice to replace PB with something more realistic instead of getting rid of them. Elite units are only moderately realistic anyway, the Silver Shield Pikemen were, Praetorian Cohort (not as used in the game), Spartan Hoplites are, Macedon should have Hypaspists and Agyraspids (Silver Shields) instead of Royal Pikemen.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  16. #46
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you solve a problem like Tanais?

    You said you modded out anything past ELC. Praetorian/Urban don't get Lorica Segmentata, do they?
    The question is certainly open to debate, and I am certainly not an expert military archaeologist. Most probably the Trajan-era cohorts used it (would be Cohort II in RTW).

    I found this in an article at the Angelfire website:

    It was once presumed that all legionaries wore segmented armor after its introduction in the early 1st c. CE, and that after that time, the lorica hamata (mail shirt) was worn only by auxilia. More recently, however, scholars such as Bishop and Maxfield have posited that there was a far greater diversity of armor within units. Legionaries and auxiliaries may have worn either segmented or mail armor based on personal preference or local practice. Like legionaries, Praetorians wore mail shirts, then gradually and not universally transitioned into segmented cuirasses, and later came to favor scale mail in the late 2nd and 3rd centuries CE.
    So who knows

    The biggest reason I modded out units for some of the more powerful factions was not for historical accuracy (or I'd have to get rid of such nonsense like Head Hurlers, Screeching Women, and Chariots) but to balance gameplay. I've said this before...if you let the AI play all the factions and then run a campaign, the Romans win every time. Maybe that's historical, maybe not, but this is a game not a historical simulator. I also play by my own rules as a Roman faction...no Praetorian Cohorts/Cavalry, no Urban/Cohort II. When you play Shogun, you can face any other clan in the final showdown to be the Shogun. Granted there are certain clans that get there more often than others, but any clan is capable to get to the "big showdown". Not so for RTW.

    I never saw "The Mummy", so I will take your word that the Pharaoh's Bowmen/Guards were unrealistic.
    By mummy I was referring to the Old Dynasty style depiction of the Egyptians. The Pharaohs were long gone to their ancestors in the sky in the timeframe of RTW...Ptolemaic Greeks ruled Egypt.

    If you removed the Romans from the game (hypothetically) then the Big E wins every time. Despite my removing Pharaoh's Bowmen (and reducing their vanilla bowmen to 80 men from 120), removing Pharaoh's Guard, reducing the Desert Cavalry to 54 men from 80 (and placing them in a square formation like everyone else), you still get this:

    http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/a...man/BSS_13.jpg

    As compensation for all the roster change to Egypt, I removed their capability to create fleets in the Red Sea. Nothing dumber than seeing several full-stack fleets sitting there and not being able to even participate in the game. Net result...the Big E isn't wasting money to create and maintain fleets they can't use. Egypt still has one of the better unit rosters in the game, despite my changes, and the screenie above shows that.
    High Plains Drifter

  17. #47
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you solve a problem like Tanais?

    As far as the armour goes, I meant in the game. The Chariots are not unrealistic for Britannia, but they were used as fast transports, not fighting vehicles. Don't know about Egypt. I guess EB was kind of meant to deal with a lot of the inaccuracies, but it is harder, especially as Rome, because for a while you can't train your own units outside of Italy, and some levy barracks need to get very advanced before they can build some good units, some can't build any good units.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  18. #48

    Red face Re: How do you solve a problem like Tanais?

    Quote Originally Posted by williamsiddell View Post
    Luckily I can guess what P.I.T.A means :)

    I get the point and understand your logic for using ZPG but I also note 3 of those cities are losing money. That's my problem. I'm fond of the filthy lucre and the best way to get it is via large cities. Tanais above required 20 peasants to keep it happy even before 24000 and, to give you an idea, even at 30000+ with 20 peasants it is still making 700 a turn after 1300 corruption. I'm hoping somebody out there has some magic bullet I don't know about for getting rid of those annoying peasants - I'm never happy if I have to use more than 3.

    I think governors are one of the few weaknesses of the game. Leave one in a city too long and the negative attributes it gains will eventually make it worse than useless.
    do you guys try not to upgrade your farm?the farm can earn you 60 to 80 denarii,but you will need more peasant upkeep to maintain it!!!
    In all warfare,speed is the key!

  19. #49
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you solve a problem like Tanais?

    Quote Originally Posted by guineawolf View Post
    do you guys try not to upgrade your farm?the farm can earn you 60 to 80 denarii,but you will need more peasant upkeep to maintain it!!!
    Does it really work that way? If you have advanced farms you need peasants in your towns? I almost never have peasants in towns, instead keeping a garrison in case I do get kicked out.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  20. #50
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you solve a problem like Tanais?

    Upgrading farms is mostly situational. If you have many low population towns (<2000), then you want as much growth as possible, and therefore maximum farming. If you own cities in provinces with a grain bonus (Carthage, Memphis, Tanais, etc), then basic farming will be all you will ever need to build. Some cities are what I call 'slow-growers'. Sparta, Corinth, and most Middle East cities outside of Jerusalem and Tarsus fall into this category. If you are playing one of the "major" factions, getting these cities to 24k is going to be problematical. Even with max farms, they won't get there. You almost always need a governor with 'growth' traits (Good Farmer, Architect, etc) and one or two 'growth' ancillaries (Grain Merchant, etc) to push the population to 24k.

    You can always ship in peasants from other cities, but this gets tedious unless the trip is a short local one. There is also the danger of getting the plague using this method, because squalor is not balanced with what the local food production can support, so it's a race to get the final governors building queued before the plague hits.

    Many factions get a temple with growth properties built-in, and full advantage of them should be taken. Unlike farming, which cannot be undone, a temple can be razed once you've boosted the population to the desired level, and the growth bonus therefore cancelled.
    High Plains Drifter

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