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Thread: Which faction provides the biggest test?

  1. #151

    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    Ok, at that level you can afford to bribe
    Yep. Each turn it's buildings first, then units, then bribes depending on what I've got left and what I'm gonna need for future turns. I bribe in the order enemy, cities then rebels. For instance, I'll be hanging on to 25k to bribe Halicarnassus (I don't think it'll cost much more). The idea is to take Sardis (or bribe it if the enemy garrison leaves) - then H. And you're right - I'm making just under 15k per turn - something as Armenia you'd kill for :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    you really only need to invest in stables
    I don't even do that - all the cities I've taken have one. In fact I delete most military buildings I don't need. It's also the reason I'd choose to attack Parthia first as Armenia. I don't want to take Sinope until the AI has built it's military and the population is large enough for a good enslave boost for the usually slow growing early Parthian cities. When I took Sinope in this game I could build cataphracts for instance, and I had a general in the line of four cities from Kotais across to pop boost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    With all the money invested in watchtowers
    I can build 14 watchtowers for the cost of one armoured elephant say, and there is no running cost. I don't mess around I just build where I am. They're so cheap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    That's what I do with my junior commanders
    I would but I pretty soon get fed up with that - and I can beat the AI generals anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    vanilla HA's get retired to brigand patrol
    I keep some cos they're cheap and they're still firing when Persian cavalry have stopped.

  2. #152

    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    You two have got me thinking. Ta.

    I'm gonna try a change of strategy. Pontus has two cities left (Sardis and Nicomedia) and both have populations of approximately 500. I think I'll build another diplomat and try to bribe both at once and take Pontus out of the game. I'll leave Halicarnassus until there is no wonder bonus left from Sardis. The jewel in the crown though is Pergamum. It's flagged as a huge city and since I have 4 generals in Turkey the two Pontic ciites plus Ancyra will get a nice boost. I'm thinking I'll boost Hatra and Susa as well. Susa is over 20k pop but slow growing and I want it to get to 24k ASAP.

  3. #153
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    something as Armenia you'd kill for
    Maybe at the stage Vincent is at, right now, but Armenia can do something Parthia cannot....build dockyards. By the time he's headed for Memphis, he'll have more money coming in each turn than he can spend.

    It's also the reason I'd choose to attack Parthia first as Armenia.
    Not the best choice as Armenia, IMHO, but certainly one that many players have chosen....

    I can build 14 watchtowers for the cost of one armoured elephant say, and there is no running cost
    The flip side is that another army could've netted two or three more port cities and, with the added income, you could afford to build an Armored Ellie every turn

    I would but I pretty soon get fed up with that - and I can beat the AI generals anyway.
    It's still a nice addition to the ranks when every general that comes to the front lines is at 4 or 5 stars already...

    I keep some cos they're cheap and they're still firing when Persian cavalry have stopped.
    There's no question vanilla HA's retain value throughout, but it's kinda fun to have your original starting HA's look like this:

    http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/a...man/BSS_10.jpg
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 08-15-2014 at 12:18.
    High Plains Drifter

  4. #154

    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    something Parthia cannot....build dockyards
    Now you tell me!

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    another army could've netted two or three more port cities
    True - but at the running cost of that other army. I think it's very valuable to see what's happening. I should say I'm about to build more in Palmyra :)

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    look like this
    Aye, I didn't think you'd completely dispense with them. Half-size units? And that general looks particularly bad-tempered 'why have I got the HAs?'

  5. #155
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Mis-spoken on my part...checked the files, and Parthia does get dockyards. Without doing the math, I would guess that Pergamum, Nicomedia, and Sardis would pay the army wages and still have money left over. But it's fun to see how other players deal with the game. Me, I'm with Vincent...kill brigands mostly...bribe where I can use the units I bribe. I'm sure Arame of Rhizus would rather be back home in Armenia enoying the company of his wife and children and tending to his spice trade, but....duty calls Nonetheless, no sense wasting veteran, highly skilled HA's so I keep them for brigand patrol...
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 08-15-2014 at 15:19.
    High Plains Drifter

  6. #156

    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    You have a strong argument - with two armies I think I'd have been in Pergamum by this time. The counter-argument is not just about money for me - it's about style. My basic army at the moment would be 4 HAs, 3 PCs, 2 Cat and 2 EI (ignoring generals). Typically, they'd be lined up HAs in front with PCs behind (using PC longer range to concentrate fire), Cats further back out of any enemy range and ready to move where needed and EIs on the wings to slow fast attacks.

    The cost to build and maintain that army would be 2500 then 590 per turn (add 2520 and 490 for a War Elephant). I could do it, but my style doesn't suit. Running another army means twice as much work, even if over a shorter period. But the main problem for me is loss of population during build and repair (however little it may seem) and the location for repair, since I may not have stables nearby. It so happens there is a city in Turkey where it wouldn't bother me - that constant pain Sinope. Elsewhere though I'd be irritated at a city's promotion being delayed by unit build and repairs.

  7. #157
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    The cost to build and maintain that army would be 2500 then 590 per turn (add 2520 and 490 for a War Elephant).
    Again, without doing the math, Pergamum is much like Athens....a very big trade node. I've had games where Pergamum is actually making more than Athens, and that's not even considering Nicomedia and Sardis. Both Sardis and Pergamum would likely be very developed, and would be money-makers straight away. Repairs and unit builds shouldn't require more than several turns, no? Don't neglect dropping a diplomat into Greece (you can build a single bireme, park it in the Straits of Bosphorus, walk your diplomat across, and then disband the fleet). Having a trade agreement with neutrals will double your sea trade (even if you are already trading without an agreement), which more than compensates for the cost of the bireme.
    High Plains Drifter

  8. #158

    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    I've had trade rights with all the neutrals since I sent a wandering diplomat out early in the game. I've just checked and they're still in place. In this game Sardis doesn't even have a port. Pontus has been using the basic barracks there to churn out Eastern infantry.

  9. #159
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Pontus has two cities left (Sardis and Nicomedia) and both have populations of approximately 500. I think I'll build another diplomat and try to bribe both at once and take Pontus out of the game
    If that is all Pontus has left you won't be able to bribe one of them, capitals, Faction Heirs, and Faction Leaders cannot be bribed. At least, I am pretty sure about capitals. Most likely their faction leader and/or heir will be in one, possibly one in each, if that is the case you cannot bribe them.
    With all the money invested in watchtowers
    I usually just build watchtowers at places when I am expecting an attack, usually a backstab, or at places like mountain passes. Sometimes I will build them elsewhere, but usually just to keep an eye on my border.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  10. #160
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Faction Heirs, and Faction Leaders cannot be bribed. At least, I am pretty sure about capitals.
    True on all accounts. In addition, faction leaders/heirs are virtually impossible to assassinate.

    I usually just build watchtowers at places when I am expecting an attack, usually a backstab, or at places like mountain passes.
    I build forts in mountain passes as they must be assaulted like towns, giving you time to send a relief force. I like putting onagers and archers inside because they can both shoot over the walls in the case of assault. I also put in a spy so I can get a pretty good idea of enemy troop composition.
    High Plains Drifter

  11. #161
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    I use a fort as the Romans to store the army that will hit Rome. I form my garrisons so that they should defeat any reasonable army and then some that the enemy might send against me. So the way I play, I don't really need a fort. One advantage of doing the fighting in the city as I like to do is that their siege weapons won't target your troops, but your buildings instead. Also starting at Stone Walls the towers fire inward and demolish the enemy.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  12. #162
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Yes, archers firing from walls are definitely better, but there are advantages to forts. They block mountain passes completely, forcing a siege or a reroute of an invading army. They serve as a means of storing mercs or replacement troops...nothing more irritating than having your expensive mercs hit with plague; very useful in situations where the nearest settlement is a long ways off like border fighting the Scipii in Libya.

    Best use is as a trap. When you don't want a street brawl (like with a horse archer faction), you pop the fort garrison out to attack a besieging army and...now you have a field battle with the invading army caught front and rear by your troops.
    High Plains Drifter

  13. #163
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    nothing more irritating than having your expensive mercs hit with plague
    Mercs or main conquest army. Speaking of plagues: if you are having public order problems in a town, and a nearby town has a plague, train something in the plagued town and send it over to the unhappy town. Plague kills off population, problem solved. Only trouble is retraining troops. Remove family members if you don't want to risk the plague killing them. As far as popping out, I don't know if it happens to you, but every time I sally forth, the enemy takes off to set up a battle line. Also when they sally forth, they set up a battle line, and my siege towers promptly nail them. I am wondering, not really looking for an answer, why I get my equipment when the enemy sallies out, but they do not get it when I sally out. I am fine with it, give me an advantage, especially with large/epic siege towers. Decimates even UC/PC.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  14. #164

    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    If that is all Pontus has left you won't be able to bribe one of them, capitals, Faction Heirs, and Faction Leaders cannot be bribed. At least, I am pretty sure about capitals.
    I've played 2 turns and moved my army down to next to Sardis. I had indeed forgotten about not bribing capitals. At turn end Pontus attacked with 3 generals and an army of EI. Killed 2 of the generals but one survives in the city. I'll play on maybe tomorrow.

    faction leaders/heirs are virtually impossible to assassinate
    True - unless you kill the existing ones. For instance Pontus has 3 generals left (all 3 star) and the one in Nicomedia is faction leader. He has a rating of 31% for my 10 eye assassin. I reckon he'll be gone when I play again.

  15. #165
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Kill the existing one? So the new one will have a greater odds of being assassinated? I do know that when a faction is doing poorly, many of their family members are easier to kill. Typically, and I will pay attention to confirm this, those with a larger bodyguard are harder to kill.
    Killed 2 of the generals but one survives in the city. I'll play on maybe tomorrow.
    That is the nice thing about having an infantry unit along, when the general runs into the town you can just send your siege equipment to effect an entry and finish him off right then.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  16. #166
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    I reckon he'll be gone when I play again.
    Doesn't matter. The game will always spawn in a new one...as long as the faction is alive, it has to have a faction leader and an heir. Sometimes the respawn is a better general than the old

    but every time I sally forth, the enemy takes off to set up a battle line
    The AI tries that stupid maneuver all the time. It's as good as signing that army's death warrant...a crossing movement right in front of horse archers? Every shot is a flank shot and the losses are horrendous even before melee ensues
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 08-16-2014 at 00:44.
    High Plains Drifter

  17. #167
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Also sometimes there will be stragglers, and I hit them with heavy cav. I am usually forming my troops how I want them. And on E/E, the enemy would always take off to my right, now they seek the high ground on M/M. They are usually pretty passive, eventually they will move to stop my shelling them, but when I move my HA's back, they move back to their formation. Getting hit in the back while doing it.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  18. #168
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    WS, I have to agree with you: HA's are not a good response to chariots, at least not from my preliminary experience. My depleted HA's (17 men) were being chased by a depleted unit of Scythed Chariots (5 men). I was faster, even though tired, but they were not taking casualties. Maybe a full unit does better against full unit, more arrows against more targets, but the situation was kind of to scale. I guess. Parthia against my HA's at Artaxarta. They had two units of HA's themselves, and the high ground, so I took some casualties before I got to good ground. Then they charged their HA's at my HA's. Now, I have two units to their one, and better experience, and a general. Their HA's got wasted. Seleucia then besieged me, I only retrained one unit of HA's in between, trying to save money. I did not have the money to retrain them all, Sardis kicked me out and went Rebel, so my finances took a hit. So I sallied out in Artaxarta. My general and my HA's took casualties to their archers, again they had the heights initially as they moved when I sallied out. I finished off their SC on my second sally, and their Greek Cav captain got decimated the first battle when he tangled with my General. So they attacked with small reinforcements, but I moved my HA's out before their rams got to my gates, and pumped arrows into their standing Phalanx Pikes and Militia Hoplites. When they finally breached my gates, their units routed as they went through the gates, I guess the number of units I had thanks to two near full Peltast units (the ones Artaxarta starts with) scared them, as they had already taken casualties thanks to my HA fire in their rear. I pursued, and routed all their units, though one Peltast unit tangled with a MH unit that had been chasing my HA's outside the walls and took about 50% casualties. The other army lost their MH to my Scythian Mercs, and their Militia Cav decided to walk down my streets under HA fire and then open fire on me when in range. My super-depleted Cats and General hit them, and they took off. I will try to remember to take screenshots, but I usually get too focused on the battle. This one was 2-1 odds against me, so I was pretty concentrated on the battle. With as much damage as HA's can do, the odds should be better in my favor.

    I am....awesome....handsome....awesommme! - Darth Maul, The Empire Strikes Out
    Last edited by Vincent Butler; 08-19-2014 at 18:50.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  19. #169
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Well, I finally covered the map as Greece. I had over fourteen million denarii at the end. Could have done it earlier, but stupid civil revolts kept occurring. I was constantly using my wuss strategy, putting my units in the corner of the map and having my phalanx face outwards in a ring from the two sides of the corner. Stupid double gold chevron-silver sword-gold shield uprisings. But I have now covered the map as Brutii, Julii, Seleucia, Macedon, and Greece. Yay, some accomplishment, but it was my first time on M/M instead of E/E. My first time beating it fully on that difficulty anyway.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  20. #170
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    My first time beating it fully on that difficulty anyway.
    Excellent

    but stupid civil revolts kept occurring.
    When you expand to cover the entire map, it's virtually impossible to avoid this as the distance-to-capital penalties become huge, and likely you are conquering cities that are near full development and therefore hard to culturally convert. Even a ZPG strategy is of little help in this case....

    So who's up next?
    High Plains Drifter

  21. #171
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    Excellent



    When you expand to cover the entire map, it's virtually impossible to avoid this as the distance-to-capital penalties become huge, and likely you are conquering cities that are near full development and therefore hard to culturally convert. Even a ZPG strategy is of little help in this case....

    So who's up next?
    Well, I installed Europa Barbarorum again, and I am Rome (on E/E, the game is harder, especially the financial aspect, but the barbarian units are better too. Some units, such as the Macedonian Silver Shield Pikemen, are incredible), but if I go back to RTW, probably the Scipii. I have not yet covered the map as the Scipii, for some reason I always stop, I think I get bored. If not Scipii, probably Britannia or Gaul. I think I have achieved minimum victory before as Gaul, I know I have as Britannia. The entire map was blue, half from me, half from Scipii. still, I think Romans are the most fun to play as. I guess I could retry Armenia.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  22. #172
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    The Scipii are my favorite Roman faction. The Decere...quick access to Africa's riches...central location for fighting the civil war...excellent temples. 5-star admiral's ruling the waves, and dropping my merc ellies onto Italy was the most fun.

    Gaul is a very good challenge. Fighting off the Julii, Brittania, and Germania can get quite With excellent infantry, superior bowmen...should be right up your alley

    I guess I could retry Armenia.
    Gah! Return to the deserts of the Middle East at your leisure
    High Plains Drifter

  23. #173
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    The Scipii are my favorite Roman faction. The Decere...quick access to Africa's riches...central location for fighting the civil war...excellent temples. 5-star admiral's ruling the waves, and dropping my merc ellies onto Italy was the most fun.

    Gaul is a very good challenge. Fighting off the Julii, Brittania, and Germania can get quite With excellent infantry, superior bowmen...should be right up your alley



    Gah! Return to the deserts of the Middle East at your leisure
    I though you liked Armenia? But it is not my style. I think last time I tried Gaul I did the wrong thing. I think I will take Spain and focus on keeping the Julii in check, then once Spain is mine, go after Rome. I need to be quick, though. But Warband are cheap. I don't know, I will have to think about it, I will be playing EB for a little while anyway.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

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