Which faction provides the biggest test?
Greek Cities is a breeze. Lots of early ports with Colossus. Many Greek culture cities to take. Early access to a bunch of wonders.
Gaul starts with some very good cities.
Egypt ditto and again early access to a bunch of wonders.
For my style of play Britons and Germans don't seem suitable because of city promotion limits (but still considered).
Otherwise which faction is the most difficult to win with?
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
I'd like to remind you (kindly, of course) that this forum is for faction specific discussions, or other aspects of gameplay. Topics like this one really should be posted in the main forum.
That said, Parthia is the most difficult, IMHO. Crappy infantry inherently, and no other way to get any except mercs. Only get one temple, and not a very good one, at that. Starting position is precarious. Except for Susa, starting cities are poor and slow 'growers'. Seleucia gets you a good city and the "Hanging Gardens", but gets you into a war with one of the richer, and more powerful factions. The Big E will be on that list shortly.
When I've played them, I go straight for Seleucia, abandon Sakae (it's just too far away to control, and too poor to be of much worth), and concentrate on getting cavalry barracks developed, ASAP. Persian Cavalry are a decent horse archer, but not in the same class as Armenian CA's or Scythian Nobles. Heavy Cats, Ellies, and Persian Cavalry are your mainstays.
Scythia is difficult, as well, but you get serviceable infantry, and the second best horse archer in the game...Scythian Noble Archers. You also get a decent heavy cavalry in the Scythian Nobles, and the Head Hunting Maidens are no pushover, as they use an axe as their main weapon so get an armor-piercing attack. The Scythian Noble Women have a decent missile attack, but the unit is too small to be effective and are not as good as the Noble Archers. The Chosen Archer Warband has to rate in the top 3 for foot archers...equivalent to Germania's/Dacian Chosen Archer.
Distances are huge, and Scythian territories have the highest rates of brigands, in my experience. You pretty much have to have a roving army of generals and horse archers to get to them quickly. When I play them, I abandon Alanni and Sarmatae for the same reasons I let go of Sakae for the Parthians...too poor, and too far away to control. I take those troops, capture Chersonesos, and take Getae from the Thracians in preparation for expansion into Greece. It's a difficult campaign, but not as hard as the Parthians.
Numidia is also pretty difficult mostly from the starting position. Whomever on the dev team that started the Numidians off with Siwa, needs a history lesson. But it's easy to stay away from the Big E for awhile by abandoning Siwa...take those troops and capture Lepcis Magna before the Romans get there. Speaking of the Romans, Numidia needs to get a strong navy up and running, ASAP, because there's no way you can deal with the constant stream of Scipii landing in NA with Desert Infantry and Militia Cavalry. Easier to sink them enroute until you get Long Shield Cavalry and Ellies. You eventually get a Legionnaire clone roughly equal to the Principes, and they become your mainstay later on. It goes without saying that Carthage has to be booted out of Carthage and Thapsus. Again, a difficult campaign to start, but if you can overcome Carthage, and sink anything remotely Roman that gets near your coastlines, you can start to roll.
Germania is easily the best barbarian faction to play, IMHO, and the one I play the most. Excellent infantry roster (Spear Warband, Bezerkers, Chosen Axmen, Night Raiders, Naked Fanatics), the best foot archer in the game (Chosen Archer Warband), and an excellent selection of Cavalry (Barbarian Nobles, Gothic Cavalry). You get decent temples one of which is a good 'growth' temple (Freyja). The choice for the other two (Donar, and Woden) depends on what troops you want, as many of those choices are temple dependent. You are far enough away from the Romans to not have to deal with them right off, and can set about crushing Britannia and Gaul. Eventually you will have to deal with the Romans, but Germania has the roster to fight well against post-Marian Roman troops (Zerkers, when jacked up with bonuses and a good general, can shred even Urban Cohorts). Anyway....I love these guysGermans don't seem suitable because of city promotion limits
High Plains Drifter
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
Finally, I've got it! I should discuss a specific faction here. But if it's factions in general discuss elsewhere :) This forum thing is complicated.Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
You're a walking Wiki RS.
Your Parthia description paints a picture opposite to my preference (fast growth and never upgrade barracks). OK it's next on the list.
Germania after that. I've never fought a strong Germania so was unaware of the strengths.
Numidia and Scythia. Don't fancy plodding the desert and facing Roman hordes, nor trudging long distances in Scythia (I hate giving up cities).
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
Whatever you do, stay away from the Big E for as long as possible. You have neither the starting roster, nor the money to fight them off for long. I once had a very nice Parthian campaign going (so I thought) until Palmyra went rebel on them and booted the garrison out. Much to my surprise, I had a boatload of super-peasants and some horse archers flying the Parthian bannerYour Parthia description paints a picture opposite to my preference (fast growth and never upgrade barracks). OK it's next on the list.I considered just taking the entire stack and heading for Seleucia (which was under my control at the time) but the city was still mine, and when Egypt sieges and captures it, we're still at war. So I fought off the initial siege until another stack showed up and wiped out what was left. Suddenly, they make peace with Seleucia, and turn their full attention on me. Guess what Seleucia does with their temporary reprieve? Yeah...bad enough to be fighting the 'Golden Horde' but now the Seleucids want their city back.
Needless to say, I got crushed. So when Egypt captures Palmyra, make sure you save your game and reload if the same thing happens (most of the time the city remains rebel if Egypt gets tossed out). Also make sure you grab Phraaspa before Armenia gets there (you are closer and can do it your first turn). Then...make sure they leave. You start with two heavy Cats to their one, and have a better general, so if they offer battle, you should win. I know Phraaspa is piss-poor, but it becomes too tempting for Armenia to be that close to your capital not to attack, and you need Seleucia ASAP.
I think you'll have fun with them...I know I do. What's not to like about their roster?Germania after that. I've never fought a strong Germania so was unaware of the strengths.
Numidia is pretty boring, but Scythia is actually quite fun. If you follow my suggestion of abandoning Alanni and Sarmatae and going for Chersonesos and Getae, you can be in Greece proper before the Romans get rolling, and once you get to Scythian Nobles/Archers, the Romans can't stop you. Too bad I deleted my only Scythian game-save (accidently) or I could show you some screenies. I owned all of Greece and was preparing to invade "The Boot" when it happened, and I didn't feel like replaying the whole thing. I haven't played them since, but it's been awhile and I just might have the patience to have another go....
If the long distances get to be a pain (I just used older generals and 'retired' Scythian Horse Archers to clean up brigands), you can always leave the steppes to the brigands. You should have all of Greece by then (kinda like Visigoth invasion) and be heading for Italy, so it's not like you need the income from those places....
Oh, and btw...Carthage can be a handful. Everyone and their grandmother wants a piece of you (Gaul and Spain in Iberia, Numidia in N. Africa, and the Romans and Greeks on Sicily) but you gotta use your Ellies and have a strong navy, at the start, or you won't survive.
Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 07-29-2014 at 20:13.
High Plains Drifter
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
From the outside looking in it seems everybody (including Egypt) attacks the Seleucids. They have several tasty cities ready for picking. So already I have been thinking of heading North at the start as Parthia and leave/take Seleucia depending for me on how things are panning out. What you say explains why I've seen Phraaspa in the hands of both Parthia and Armenia - It'll be Parthia in my game :)
That would suit. If I can't afford to bribe I tend to leave them til I have an army passing on other business. A brigand killer posse sounds interesting.
That explains why I always find it easy to get a ceasefire with Carthage - they're already under heavy pressure.
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
What in the blazes forSo already I have been thinking of heading North at the start as ParthiaThere's nothing up there but long stretches of open steppe, brigands, and really poor cities...
You should abandon Sakae immediately (put them into the single bireme that you own and will ever need) and head them South. If you want to play a waiting game with Seleucia, take out the Armenians. Pontus will either attack Seleucia or you, in that case. Both are good things...your horse archers will run circles around eastern infantry, and they won't have enough Pontic Heavy Cav at this point to matter much. You'll have to get into it sooner or later with the Seleucids...better to make it sooner when they are weaker
Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 07-30-2014 at 01:34.
High Plains Drifter
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
I did say I was looking for a test. High level: take Armenia, Pontus and Asia Minor. Then attack in three different directions - Scythia, Greece and Egypt. I don't know if this is practical but that is the plan (flexible of course). Then south through the little cities to Memphis and the pyramids.
I wouldn't know that, would I? I'm not keen on attracting attention early by taking Seleucia unless I have no option.
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
Aye, you did. And tested you will be Jedi....I did say I was looking for a test.
I would've thought with your attention to detail that you'd have looked to see at what city level you get to build which barracks......I wouldn't know that, would I?
I have seen Seleucia target Susa while in the midst of getting pounded by the Golden Horde, so keep an eye out for a backstab.....they are Greeks afterallI'm not keen on attracting attention early by taking Seleucia unless I have no option.
High Plains Drifter
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
Ha ha.
They don't know what's coming their way. And I'm trying to play Parthia as an innocent.
You just don't understand them.
I'm gonna start Parthia tonight. The GC VH/VH is too familiar. This might surprise you - it's playing easier. The AI seems to be eh, absent. I'm well ahead of where I would expect to be - mind you I've had to change strategy.
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
Oh I understand them, alright...scheming, dishonest, backstabbing S.O.B.'sYou just don't understand themNever, ever, trust a Greek faction. People like to comment that the Romans are never to be trusted...and that's true. But....
....the Greeks have backstabbing down to an art. I had a Carthage campaign awhile back where it seemed convenient to keep them around. I figured to use them as a temporary buffer against the Romans until I had completed my campaigning elsewhere. I gave them a couple of cities, some cash, and granted movement rights through my provinces so they could get from one to another of their split holdings without having to stop next to one of my cities. All well and good. They behaved themselves quite remarkably for perhaps a decade, and were actually doing what I had set them up to do....keep the Romans occupied for awhile.
When the backstab came, I guess I wasn't too surprised but what pissed me off even more was the way it was done. Not in a warrior act of courage by besieging a city, but a little chicken$%#@ port blockade by a single bireme that ran away the following turn. Needless to say, you can guess what happened next
High Plains Drifter
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
Naw, naw. You just don't understand them - cos they speak Greek :)
Those dirty, sneaky, underhand, thick Greek gits!
Played the first five turns of Parthia VH/VH. Avert your eyes if you're finding this too radical :)
Spotted right away I was short of cash and lumbered with poor units. I'll explain my setup and then not bore again unless summat interesting happens.
Turn one. Largest costs associated with the army being too big. Disbanded all cavalry and slinger in Sakae and built a peasant. Left the general there for public order and 90 admin. Similarly in Susa. Formed my main army at Arsakia and headed for Phraaspa. Sent the spy north and the diplomat south. Emphasis on cash buildings and sold unneeded military buildings.
Turn end: Got rebels outside Susa so reloaded.
Turn two: Took Phraaspa. Concentrated one roads, ports, traders and markets. Built other peasants for Sakae and Phraaspa.
Turn end: Both Armenia and Scythia offered trade and maps for nowt.
Turn three: As above. Cash improving. Disbanded the boat. Kept my army in Phraaspa. Trade rights and alliance with Seleucids.
End Turn: Leader died so reloaded, but have to live with a rebel outside Susa that appeared. New general in Phraaspa. Built diplomat in Arsakia.
Turn four: Moved toward Artaxerta. Spy showed barracks no better than mine. Moved diplomat toward Armenia.
End turn: Armenia moved an army to block access by my troops.
Turn five: Bribed Armenan army and got two units then assaulted Artaxerta - gates open and taken. They had built a better barracks so now I can build hillmen. Oh joy. Enslaved and boosted Phraaspa, Sakae and Susa. Will now move my generals out and start building watchtowers. Heading for Kotais soon.
Last edited by williamsiddell; 07-31-2014 at 10:02.
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
Yeeesh. Hillmen are worthless, IMHO. All of the disadvantages, and none of the advantages of Eastern Infantry.They had built a better barracks so now I can build hillmen.
I take it you snagged their Cataphract unit? It's what I do, if that's the case. Better to have the unit fight on your side than against....Bribed Armenan army and got two units then assaulted Artaxerta
High Plains Drifter
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
Nope. I take it because I didn't own a qualifying stable. 262bc - Armenia long gone and making 4k per turn. Abandoned the idea of attacking Pontus so aiming south instead. Two things - I've built a large number of watchtowers to cover the huge area those few cities cover, and interestingly there is a group of rebels causing no devastation in Sakae. I think they were there from the start and they keep more away - so they stay.
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
Armenia starts with a single Cat...you should have started with two--designers decision. Has nothing to do with available barracks. You can't replace losses, of course, until you have the appropriate barracks.
Keep an eye out (watchtowers or spy) along the road from Sinope to Kotais. It's Pontus' favorite invasion route if they don't try for Tarsus first. They will attack you sooner or later, but it will be later if they join the Seleucid feeding frenzy. After that, watch for a Pontus-Egypt alliance. Happens more frequently than not, so if you decide, at a later point, to attack them (or they attack you), watch out for Big BrotherAbandoned the idea of attacking Pontus so aiming south instead.
Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 07-31-2014 at 17:38.
High Plains Drifter
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
Parthia VH/VH 244bc
Parthia: The towns around the inland sea only sea trade with one other town, so no need to upgrade a port. Susa the top city with 22000 and zero growth (courtesy of slave boosts).
Armenia: Long gone, but against them I won my first horse to horse battle.
Selucids: I'm used to them disappearing like a Cheshire cat, but they've expanded this time. They allied with Pontus, Scythia and eventually Egypt, then attacked me. Their troops back off as though not keen on fighting my horse. Selucia and two small towns taken.
Pontus: As predicted they sent a bunch of armies against Kotais. I was forced to build a small army and had 3 heroic victories before taking Sinope (20k size, enslave boosted other towns, can now build cataphracts).
Egypt: Have three large armies just inside my borders but not doing anything. My assassins are busy. Getting ready to attack them starting with Palmyra.
Scythia: No activity.
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
Sounds like you are having fun with it.....
High Plains Drifter
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
Aye, It's highly entertaining. The long-lasting horse archers are deadly in battle. Highlight so far - watching an Armenian scythed chariot running amok and killing the enemy leader, forcing another scythed chariot to go amok and both decimating their own troops :)
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
Now that would be a highlight...except Armenia doesn't get scythed chariotsHighlight so far - watching an Armenian scythed chariot running amok and killing the enemy leader
High Plains Drifter
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
Ooops, Pontic outside Kotais.
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
Seleucids and Egyptians are continually backing off. Example: Egypt has 5 full armies in the Palmyra area (inluding 2 on my territory causing high devastation). So I plant my own size 20 army adjacent to the two hoping to be attacked at turn end. No attack and one of the armies backs off. When I attack the other it retreats and I follow up.
It seems I should be using half size armies to see some action :) That means a complete change of strategy, so instead of feeling I've been wasting conquering time, I'm gonna restart the game (and take account of other minor things like port upgrades being unnecessary in some cases). I also feel short of generals and several of the ones I have are rather elderly - so I'll be looking at that too.
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
I've found the game to be extremely stingy with family members, at times. I had a Seleucid campaign once where I had conquered some 15 territories beyond my original 5 and I had exactly 3 family members left. I hadn't lost any in battle, none to plague, and none to bribe. All the potential husbands for my daughters were in their late forties or older, so I passed on all of them. I considered bribing a few, but there weren't any brigand generals, and most of what Egypt had left was crap. The AI does make adjustments, however. I got three consecutive "Man-of-the-Hour" events in three rather insignificant battles. MotH generals tend to be very good (3-star, usually) so I could finally get my family tree up and running again....I also feel short of generals and several of the ones I have are rather elderly
High Plains Drifter
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
I couldn't handle that - I've certainly been spoiled by Greek Cities. I need 'spares' for my nefarious slave boost activities and I accept all proposals in the hope they'll start breeding immediately :)
MotH seems like a good option for Parthia - I'll have a go.
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
Just hope the rebels do not take the towers over. If they move onto the tower you will lose the sight that tower gives. I don't know if that works for opposing factions as well. I don't remember, I thought Hillmen were better than Eastern Infantry. Why else would they be in a better barracks?
Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1
In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
As modest stillness and humility:
But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger;
-Henry V by William Shakespeare
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
Is that even possible? I have never seen a watchtower change hands except if a different faction other than the tower builder occupies the province. I don't think you can even move into the coordinates occupied by the towerJust hope the rebels do not take the towers over.
Don't ever recruit Hillmen unless it's a dire emergency. They have all of the disadvantages of Eastern Infantry, and none of the advantages. Eastern Infantry get a bad rap, IMHO. They get a bonus fighting cavalry, and have a base defense of 10, and in desert conditions, they get a movement bonus. Granted an attack value of 3 is pretty paltry, but don't overlook the bonuses granted by a good general. In the hands of a 5-star general who is, say, a Legendary Infantry commander, that 3 attack value becomes 13. I'm certainly not advocating they become an army mainstay, but their mass, speed, and cavalry bonus make them more useful than you might think. Early in the game, I like to use them to spring traps by luring opposing cavalry towards them with my horse archers. Even cataphracts can be overwhelmed by a massed EI attack.I don't remember, I thought Hillmen were better than Eastern Infantry.
Besides, as Parthia, once you get to your Ellies and Heavy Cats, you won't need them any more
Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 08-06-2014 at 13:22.
High Plains Drifter
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
I have not really examined the units, so I fully acknowledge my ignorance in that matter. I just know EI rout very quickly. And right, as Parthia, better to sally forth and wreak havoc with the cav than let the enemy assault the city. As factions such as Greece or Macedon, it is easier to let them assault and fight them in the streets, with help from your walls. Phalanx are a lot easier to use when the enemy is marching through narrow streets. Rome can go either way. As for the towers, I have had rebel units move onto the coordinates of towers in the campaign map, and I lost the line of sight that tower provided. I can attack them and drive them away, and I get the line of sight back. Is there a thread about how a general's attributes affect his units?
Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1
In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
As modest stillness and humility:
But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger;
-Henry V by William Shakespeare
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...mmand-stars-doIs there a thread about how a general's attributes affect his units?
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...cts-of-Command
My appreciation of generals attributes went up dramatically after reading those two threads. The bonuses granted to troops often becomes the difference between victory and defeat. You asked me once how I could charge my Heavy Cats frontally into phalanx. The answer is in the commanding general's bonuses. I would never do that with a fledgling general unless I was desperate. But in the hands of a Legendary Cavalry/Legendary Attacker/Legendary Commander (bonuses stack)......SPLAT!
High Plains Drifter
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
Thanks for the links.
Back to the Parthian infantry, I did some research. Somebody on the Total War Heaven forum did a one-on-one on Medium difficulty. It took an experience+2 unit of his Hillmen to beat a standard unit of AI EI, and then it was close, the extra men make the difference. By the screenshot he posted, Hillmen vs EI: Attack:5-3 Charge Bonus:2-1 Defense:9-10. Eastern Infantry have 120 men, poor morale, can sap, bonus vs cav. Hillmen have 80 men, bonus fighting cav, can sap, can hide in long grass, fast-moving, may charge without orders, good stamina. The one-on-one says it all, though. EI also did better against all other units tested: Barb. Cav, Swordsmen, Scythe Chariots, Archers, Militia Hoplites. So yes, EI are better. They cost 40 more, but upkeep is 20 less, so you get more for your money. He also tried 3-3, and EI still won.
Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1
In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
As modest stillness and humility:
But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger;
-Henry V by William Shakespeare
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
Quotes from other threads:
This current game I'm playing is very different to the first. A medium Scythian army toddled toward Phraaspa and back, and a Scythian general with a horse archer army moved in and out of Sakae several times. I knew the writing was on the wall and shortly after the general appeared on my northern border and the army that had been loitering besieged Kotais. Luckily my army that had stuffed Armenia was still around and with a few reinforcements and heavy touch and go fighting I was forced to take Alanni. Fighting Scythian HA is a painful experience :)I've never had problems with Scythia
I just don't like giving up cities so I keep Sakae.But my way is certainly not the only way
If Scythia attacks you probably don't have any option.It may or may not be a bad idea to take Alanni
In my previous Parthian game by 240bc Sakae has a 15k population and 2 peasants to hold it at 70% - showing a net profit and contributing 700 to army costs. It is poor in trade but generates nearly 900 farming with irrigation built - more when I take Selucia. When I move capitals it will no doubt give me trouble but that is expected.It won't take long till you have public order problems there (Sakae) anyway
Even Scythia thinks it's too remote :)nobody goes after it (Sakae), meaning you don't need much of a garrison
Finally, this time Egypt has taken Selucia and currently has a full army heading for Arsakia and another moving into Susa from the south (war not declared yet). My army from Alanni is pelting south and I'm building units hand over fist :)
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
Do you prefer to fight in town or open field? As Parthia, probably better to fight in the open field, though in the town their chariots will be next to useless. I find slingers to be effective against chariots and light infantry, RS may have something to say about that. Also, they can serve as fodder for their bowmen. How much have you fought against Egypt, if you have been Greece probably a lot.
Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1
In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
As modest stillness and humility:
But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger;
-Henry V by William Shakespeare
Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?
I never did any empirical testing like the folks at TWH, but my battlefield experiences told me that EI were better against most other units than Hillmen, and, as you pointed out, they are cheaper to keep.The one-on-one says it all, though. EI also did better against all other units tested: Barb. Cav, Swordsmen, Scythe Chariots, Archers, Militia Hoplites. So yes, EI are better.
Can't fault you there. However.....in one of my early Parthian campaigns, I ended up at war with Scythia, Seleucia, Armenia, AND the Big E. Not much fun when you run out of money because you have to keep so many armies in the field to fend them off. So I greatly reduce the possibility of war with Scythia by removing their closest target. Even if they send an army south to attack you in Colchis or Media, crush it and they will be hard pressed to send another for a very long time.I just don't like giving up cities so I keep Sakae.
........what I said......and a Scythian general with a horse archer army moved in and out of Sakae several times
Once I take Seleucia, Hatra, and Sinope, my capital goes to Hatra, so I just anticipate the inevitable.....you don't have a good enough law-and-order temple to swing it, and getting it to ZPG is verrrry difficult.When I move capitals it will no doubt give me trouble but that is expected.
Your a horse archer faction here, not a bunch of stone-chuckersRS may have something to say about that
High Plains Drifter
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