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Thread: Which faction provides the biggest test?

  1. #61

    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    Early on, how did you deal with chariots?
    Early on you could fire at chariots all day with horse archers and not kill them all, so the alternative I use is Eastern Infantry. Chariots seem to like charging troop formation so, I take advantage of that. I line up the EI facing the chariots and when they charge I follow up with anything I've got available - they die quick :)

    From what you say I don't think your style suits Parthia so I'm not surprised you ended up skint. For instance you like real garrisons e.g slingers, a peasant cost 100 per turn, a slinger 170. The extra soon mounts up. Parthia is perfect for a stingy git like me.
    Last edited by williamsiddell; 08-08-2014 at 23:53.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    I like the title 'Cavalry Commander of Genius'
    Strange thing about that...in my last three (consecutive) Armenian campaigns, the first of my generals to achieve that status was named Kudurmabug of Elegia...all three times

    Wasn't the Parthian shot restricted to the HA's of that region, or was that standard HA procedure, it is the Parthian shot and not the Scythian Shot, after all? I was thinking, and I could very well be wrong, that that was a tactic used, or at least started, by the Parthians.
    Yes it started with the Parthians, but was quickly adopted by other horse archer cultures like the Scythians, Huns, Turks, Maygars, and even the Mongols.

    You wound, like Parthians, while you fly,
    And kill with a retreating eye.

    Pretty aptly describes a horse archer, I think...

    Parthia was a well-kept secret.
    Most folks don't like them from the money aspect, but especially because of the reputation for poor infantry. IMHO, they didn't understand what Parthia is all about. You have done remarkably well with them and deserve a hearty

    So you are doing well for money? That is what killed my Parthia campaigns.
    I'd like to make a suggestion if I might....start with Armenia. You being an infantry type, will find Armenia's roster amenable, at the least. You eventually get the best Horse Archer in the game, and you can stay safely tucked behind the Caucasus Mts. while you pound Pontus into submission. You get quick access to rich port cities like Sinope, Nicomedia, and eventually Sardis and Pergamum. I wrote an extensive Guide to Armenia, if you want to check it out.

    Early on, how did you deal with chariots? Just curious for when I start one with Parthia again.
    Ummm...horse archers?

    High Plains Drifter

  3. #63

    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    I assume you are trying to take Turkey
    One of the things about this game is you can have a good plan, and then the AI messes it up by attacking when it's clearly a stupid thing to do :)

    I attacked down the northern coast of Turkey with a starting army of size six. After several heroic victories on the way, I could see the garrison in Sinope was too big, so I took Masaka first, then Sinope, then Tarsus and almost immediately Antioch. I took Alanni early and Scythia has again besieged it. The army I have inside will beat them, and then I think I have no option but to remove the Scythian threat by going after them - they're an expensive side-show to the main game. I've taken Selucia and closing in on Hatra with 4 or 5 Egyptian armies around the area that I can duff up.

    The plan - aim to take Memphis ASAP to make Egyptian buildings mine, then the other Egyptian cities. Clean up in Turkey and move my capital to Sidon or Jerusalem.

  4. #64

    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    You have done remarkably well with them
    Praise indeed. It so happens I have an affinity for horses.

  5. #65
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    One of the things about this game is you can have a good plan, and then the AI messes it up by attacking when it's clearly a stupid thing to do :)
    For sure. That is usually when they attack, is when it is stupid. It's like, "You are the super power. I have two settlements. You have a full army with a wide range of armoured troops, missile units, and heavy cav. I have all Warband. I shall prevail. Why did I just lose all my men in the battle? Revenge will be mine." Even more insulting is when they blockade a port. Cowards. So in your experience, HA's were not good against Chariots, RS liked them for that. Interesting. By the way, as Scythia, your first-level barracks unit is the Horse Archer. Yes, barracks unit. You don't even need a stable for that. RS, you are right, Armenia may be a good transition. That said, I learned to appreciate cav as Macedon. Also, who I fight determines the composition of my army. Instinctively, I would not use HA's against Egypt, but you seem to do well with them; all I know is my first battle against Egypt, as an inexperienced RTW player, my HA's stayed out of range, using Cantabrian Circle, but I got owned everywhere else. I don't even remember all I had, I know HA's and Merc Hoplites, I don't remember what else.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  6. #66

    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    in your experience, HA's were not good against Chariots
    You probably remember yourself you can practically count each chariot as it falls under HA attack. It just takes too long for me.

    Didn't know that about the Scythian barracks - explains the high number they produce.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    using Cantabrian Circle
    I use CC with Greek militia cav but not HA. HA has ammunition to last the entire battle and I don't want to exhaust them.

    Early Egypt doesn't seem to have much to threaten HAs - including chariots even if you have to fire at them all day. Now I would expect to easily beat a size 20 Egypt with a size 10 Parthian. Not so when I first played the game though.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    my HA's stayed out of range, using Cantabrian Circle
    ws is right...don't waste your time with Cantabrian Circle. It just tires your HA for no discernible gain. With spear-chucking cavalry...they don't have as much ammo, so the Circle will run its course much quicker.

    Armenia may be a good transition
    I suggested them because of the three horse archer factions in RTW, they have the most balanced roster, so if you find yourself not comfortable with all-cataphract armies, you can go a more familiar route with phalanx, the legionnaire clone, and whatever missile unit suits your needs. They are also more secluded, so you can pick your way a bit less pressed. Pontus is usually your first opponent, although Parthia sometimes comes sniffing around Artaxarta after they occupy Phraaspa.....

    In my last Armenian campaign, I tried something I had always wanted to do....a migration campaign. I completely left Armenian traditional lands in favor of a "Black Sea" sojourn. It was a refreshing bit of fun. I posted a thread on it..."Black Sea Serenade".

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...k-Sea-Serenade
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 08-09-2014 at 02:38.
    High Plains Drifter

  8. #68

    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    In my last Armenian campaign....a migration campaign
    Liked the photies. Did you defend your homeland or (since it was a migration) leave the cities to their fate? And where did you plant your capital?

    my HA's stayed out of range
    I've been caught out by that a lot. I set them up and leave them to it, but when they get to a red line they seem to stop retreating and get massacred. Now if I see that happening I disable skirmish and high-tail it.

    real garrisons e.g slingers
    For public order purposes the quality of the garrison doesn't seem to matter - only size. So a peasant is not only cheaper but more effective. 240 against 160.

    Sarmatians with Parthia seem a different thing entirely. Enemy missile troops tear them to shreds, so I have them hang back and reserve them for suicide attacks and mopping-up. One other thing. They seem to attract the enemy. Two examples. At a bridge battle I placed them well back and the enemy general charged over the bridge, ignored everything else, and made a bee-line for my Sarmatians. The general caught them and soon had them routing, while I closed in with a couple of my own generals. Also, and this is a cracker, against a small rebel army I moved them wide on the flank waiting to mop-up if necessary, and a rebel spearman did a right turn and headed straight for them!

    I've had 7 or so battles as Parthia with no general present (including several against rebels) but no luck with Man of the Hour. I presume this is dice throw dependent with low odds. How do I improve my chances?

    I find Parthian cataphracts excellent in city assaults. Two planted across a street slightly overlapped and in defensive mode kill generals. Armoured hoplites in a similar situation under attack by a powerful general last a while, but steadily die. Similarly with cataphracts, but the difference is that they get penetrated and when the general himself ends up amongst them he dies.
    Last edited by williamsiddell; 08-09-2014 at 10:21.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Did you defend your homeland or (since it was a migration) leave the cities to their fate?
    Never looked back. My capital moved as I made my way into the Balkans and then Greece. It ended up in Tylis, eventually. LMAO at the Egyptian stack all the way up in Scythian lands looking for me The sequence of the Scipii and the Moors was pretty hilarious, as well.

    The best chances for MotH seems to come from heroic victories, and yes it's a low-odds dice throw. That's why I was so surprised in the Seleucid campaign that I mentioned...three MotH events in three rather routine battles

    Sarmatians with Parthia seem a different thing entirely.
    Perhaps all that falls under the same category as suicide generals. The AI assesses its best unit with yours, and decides it can win My favorite in that 'attack the best unit' theme is suicide Roman Triarii (and later the Auxillia) who think that just because game stats say they have a bonus against cavalry that they can go charging head-on into Heavy Cats...heheheh
    High Plains Drifter

  10. #70

    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    You wound, like Parthians, while you fly,
    And kill with a retreating eye.
    Very poignant. But in the spirit of competition:

    a' that is pronounced 'awe that' Scottish for 'all that'

    Then let us pray that come it may,
    (As come it will for a' that,)
    That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,
    Shall bear the gree, an' a' that.
    For a' that, an' a' that,
    It's coming yet for a' that,
    That Man to Man, the world o'er,
    Shall brothers be for a' that.

    The situation by the end of some of my games :)
    Last edited by williamsiddell; 08-09-2014 at 12:05.

  11. #71
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    That's why I was so surprised in the Seleucid campaign that I mentioned...three MotH events in three rather routine battles
    I have noticed that when I am low on family members I receive more MotH and Candidates for Adoption, kind of the computer keeping the game going. Right about CC, I have learned not to utilize it much, it probably works better against missile troops.
    By Moors, are you talking Numidia?

    I think spearmen will automatically go for a cav unit. Auxilia vs Companion Cav... Archers automatically target elephants. The AI is not dumb, just stupid.

    My brother as Scythia mainly fielded just cav, Scythia has a nice selection of good cavalry. Again, it helps with the barracks producing HA's.

    I find Parthian cataphracts excellent in city assaults
    I don't like cav in a city period, I keep them in as wide streets as possible.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  12. #72

    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    I have noticed that when I am low on family members I receive more MotH and Candidates
    That didn't work in my last Parthian game - I was permanently struggling for generals. This game I have a bunch more. It would be nice to know what equations the AI uses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    I don't like cav in a city period
    I don't use them as cavalry. Because of their high defensive attributes I'm actually using them as mobile hoplites.

    I'm reading up on EB and saw this on FAQ.

    Q: Why are slingers so strong?
    A: Slingers have the AP attribute to represent the power of the lead bullets that they used. Slingers can be more effective against armored units and were historically. Due to the fact that the AI doesn't spam slingers, the EB team has decided to keep their stats the way they are.

  13. #73
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    For the slingers, I noticed an immediate difference in EB vs RTW. They make a great garrison unit, especially shooting from the walls. From walls, they decimate even good enemy units, and are even better against unarmoured. I usually have at least two slingers, two archers in my garrison. These are just first level units, Celtic Slingers and Ascensi (Roman slingers). Barbarians get stone walls, by the way. There are no peasants that you can train, but you get a peasant unit called Apleutheroi when a town revolts to you. They get a missile attack by throwing stones at the enemy. Your level of barracks determines how many you get.

    Because of their high defensive attributes I'm actually using them as mobile hoplites.
    Right, but hoplites can keep the enemy off them and not take hits, Cataphracts do take hits.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  14. #74

    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    Cataphracts do take hits.
    Cataphracts are the strongest defensive unit Parthia has. EI can't handle a charge by generals or heavy cavalry, so I use cataphracts as the first line of defense and as general killers. Parthia starts with two, and in fact the first full battle I fought was a siege of Kotais fought outside when the main Armenian army attacked. I lined up the cataphracts 4 deep facing the generals as they approached and killed both when they attacked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    There are no peasants that you can train
    That's more like it - peasants should be next to useless as a military unit.

    I was hoping you might check the unit desc files for EB to see if slingers are flagged as AP. The reason? RS (and not only he) thought they were AP in RTW.
    Last edited by williamsiddell; 08-10-2014 at 00:28.

  15. #75
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    I would not know how to tell in the descr files, RS checked and said he could not find anything, here is his quote:
    I assumed, because stones are classified as a blunt weapon, that the main attribute for slingers would be AP like all the other blunt weapon types. I looked in the descr_projectile.txt and the export_descr_unit.txt files in the RTW directory, but couldn't find any wording suggesting an AP attribute. Lots of players swear to the AP attribute, but it's not stated in any game file that I can find...so who know
    Cataphracts are about the strongest defensive unit anybody has, barring Urban Cohort or Armoured Elephants, maybe even better defense. Armoured Hoplites are up there, though.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  16. #76
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    By Moors, are you talking Numidia?
    Mauretania. When Tingi rebels, those rebels are always called Moors. I had half a mind to send a fleet out there with a spy on board just to see what the heck their army consisted of. Those were post-Marian Scipii the Moors were kicking around

    Scythia has a nice selection of good cavalry.
    Aye, that they do. The Scythian Noble-Scythian Noble Archer tandem is tough to beat, and the Hunting Maidens make for a great mop-up unit.

    RS (and not only he) thought they were AP in RTW.
    I don't think they are (RTW). What I see, though, is that Rhodian and Balearic Slingers have double the attack value of vanilla slingers. Perhaps the devs acknowledgement that they often used lead shot in place of stones.

    Because of their high defensive attributes I'm actually using them as mobile hoplites.
    You know, tanks wouldn't be used as mobile pillboxes for another 2000 yrs, so you're way ahead of the curve in military tactics...you could just recruit some merc hoplites
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 08-10-2014 at 04:44.
    High Plains Drifter

  17. #77
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    you could just recruit some merc hoplites
    That's right, I have seen them in Parthian lands. Balearic/Rhodian slingers have greater attack and greater range than normal slingers. What kind of units did the Moors have?
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  18. #78

    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Nothing like a bit of controversy :) I'm playing a game here, and I have very little knowledge of ancient warfare so I use the units given - that at best can only be a crude approximation of actual troops. I do remember a long time ago spearmen beating tanks in Civ - did some not like that! Me. I used the spearmen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    I would not know how to tell in the descr files, RS checked and said he could not find anything,
    That's OK. I haven't downloaded EB yet and just wondered. I too have had a look ay the RTW file and there is no indication of AP for slingers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    Cataphracts are about the strongest defensive unit anybody has, barring...Armoured Elephants
    That's why I use them for Parthia. I haven't seen Armoured Elephants, but if they're like the ones I have seen they're probably too spaced out to use as a defensive line.

  19. #79

    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    Perhaps the devs acknowledgement that they often used lead shot in place of stones
    Rhodians are flagged as using 'bullet' most of the rest stone (stone-chuckers as you put it). The point I was trying to make is that the devs seem to be saying lead shot (bullet) was AP historically, but it's not implemented as such in RTW' Is it in EB?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    you could just recruit some merc hoplites
    I haven't seen any around Parthia or I would. Most of the mercs seem to be area dependent - not so for merc hoplites?

  20. #80

    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    That's right, I have seen them (hoplites) in Parthian lands.
    Not so far for me.

  21. #81

    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=...c#.U-dADGMel60

    Finally got round to setting up screenshots. This is the current Parthian situation.

    BTW merc hoplites are flagged as 'slave' only and not area dependant.
    Last edited by williamsiddell; 08-10-2014 at 10:52.

  22. #82
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    What kind of units did the Moors have?
    Dunno. Never sent a spy over there to see. I would assume they had some Ellies...Tingi is a recruitment center for them

    The point I was trying to make is that the devs seem to be saying lead shot (bullet) was AP historically
    They doubled the attack value of Rhodians and Balearics...but the unit files and projectile files don't flatly state that the attack value is AP. And there is a difference...AP means that 1/2 the armor value is used when calculating losses....(not sure if shield bonus is halved, as well)

    I haven't seen any around Parthia or I would
    Send a general into Phrygia or Ionia. There's Cretan's, Hoplites, and Bastarnae there. You could also put a general on a boat and send him to Bosphorus. There's hoplites there, as well.

    Looks like the Romans haven't done much...that's surprising. Germania seems to be kicking butt, as does Dacia. The Greek Cities eating up Macedonia is also a surprise. The biggest surprise is that 26 years into the game and the Scipii haven't even occupied Sicily??
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 08-10-2014 at 15:34.
    High Plains Drifter

  23. #83

    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    Germania seems to be kicking butt, as does Dacia. The Greek Cities eating up Macedonia is also a surprise.
    I've only got one diplomat toddling around up there and he's on his way back. The most recent maps are Germania and Macedon. Aye, Germania is doing better than I've seen before (maybe because Scythia chose to attack me) and I aint seen any sign of Greeks in Turkey (concentrating on the mainland? - and there are still 2 large pontic armies wandering around out of picture).

    I've just played that turn to turn end and I've got 800 left and a building I was unable to pay for. Mercs are out of the question til I can get some spare cash. The battle up at Alanni was a corker - my COA general against a Scythian powerful enough that I couldn't assassinate. Hatra taken.

    Finally, you can see crossed swords on the Antioch bridge. I had besieged and at turn end a size 20 Egyptian attacked - they died as did the garrison.

  24. #84
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    Just how large is your garrison at Alanni and Sakae (including family members)?
    High Plains Drifter

  25. #85

    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    dbl post
    Last edited by williamsiddell; 08-10-2014 at 17:22.

  26. #86

  27. #87
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    I am pretty sure EB slingers get a bonus vs armour, I think that is one of their attributes. The Armoured Elephants are spaced out too much, I think only Seleucia and Carthage can train them. I know I found the Merc Hoplites, I have seen them in Tribus Sakae, and somewhere else. I know I used them as Parthia, and I never got out of the main starting regions.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  28. #88
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    From the descr_mercenaries file (found in Data>world>maps>campaign>imperial_campaign) there are six steppe regions with merc Greek hoplites:

    Tribus Sakae, Tribus Alanni, Tribus Sarmatae, Maeotis, Scythia, and Bosphorus.

    In each of these regions there are Sarmatian Heavy Cavalry, Scythian Horse Archers, and Greek Hoplites.
    High Plains Drifter

  29. #89
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    You're awesome. That merc combination sounds pretty effective. Combined with some of the mercs that are not in all of those regions, Bastarnae, Thracians, Merc Peltasts, sounds like you could stage a pretty good war from that area.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  30. #90

    Default Re: Which faction provides the biggest test?

    http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=...c#.U-kiPWMel60

    And I thought Turkey would be a mop-up. Greeks and Pontics say no. This is the start of the turn and it's fair to say the Greeks will attack at turn-end. I'll leave it and go back later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    I know I used them as Parthia, and I never got out of the main starting regions.
    This is all vanilla RTW. I think cash is the key. You know if you did nothing first turn as Parthia you'd lose a large slice of your meagre 5000 start money. I get rid of evrything I don't immediately need and head toward Phraaspa with my only remaining army.

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