IMMIGRATION thread

[Gilrandir]

So what you're saying is that the EU should colonize all the refugees in Kaliningrad?

All agonized steps the European leaders take remind me attempts to stem the flood after the dam has burst. The threat should have been descried way back and prevented or at least minimized. Now prevention gave way to reaction which hardly looks adequate.

I don't see any sensible way of solving the refugee problem without inconveniencing Europeans in many ways. Such inconveniences will cause repercussions which will result in swaying the public sentiment to the right. European leaders are to own up to it and plan their further actions correspondingly.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What I am afraid of in Sweden, is NOT that the society will collapse forever. What I am afraid of, is that the Swedish population is damn nice and friendly, eager to lend a helping hand. However, if you fail on that trust... DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN, last time I think it was called "the holocaust".

Errrr, Kad, no.

The Holocaust was about lower-class jealousy, Jews were quite well integrated into Europe at the time despite centuries of legally enforced segregation - in fact the history of the Jews is basically the opposite of how Muslims are treated today in Europe.

[Montmorency]

PVC, you don't understand the mentality.

A parasite is a parasite, whether rapacious rich Jew or militant slumdog Muslim.

[Viking]

He doesn't seem to be talking about Muslims (or cultural markers in general), but about pigmentation levels. In other words: likely motivated by racism.

(and for record: most Jews in Europe are surely 'white' (which is a really stupid term))

[Husar]

Oh no....

NO NO NO NO NO NO.

That's not what I am afraid of.


White people have time, and time again proved that when push comes to shove, we bring nukes.

What I am afraid of in Sweden, is NOT that the society will collapse forever. What I am afraid of, is that the Swedish population is damn nice and friendly, eager to lend a helping hand. However, if you fail on that trust... DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN, last time I think it was called "the holocaust".

I'm not afraid that Swedish culture will fall in the long run, what I am AFRAID of, like actually REALLY afraid of, is what steps we in the near future will have to take to secure the survival of our culture.

Things will, as it looks, turn extremely nasty in the not so far away future. I mean, now already we have immigrants throwing hand grenades at police cars...

Eventually the Swedish people will have had enough, and I just absolutely shudder when I think about what moral rules we will have to break to secure the survival of our culture.

Heck, by the looks of it, it might get as bad as in the RVG quote in my signature. And by then, I wouldn't want to be anything but white.




DO NOT think I endorse this thought. I just describe the direction we are leaning towards. We already by 2015 have militias, that would have been unthinkable as I grew up.

Exactly what I said, and I agree that some societies always embrace Hitler again sooner or later.

[Montmorency]

Migrant Crisis: Germany to 'start border controls'

[Husar]

Migrant Crisis: Germany to 'start border controls'

Don't you think it is mean to expose the failure of certain societies' internet posts like this?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Don't you think it is mean to expose the failure of certain societies' internet posts like this?

I think Germany has undermined the principle of free movement.

Why do your people hate economic Freedom?

[Kadagar_AV]

He doesn't seem to be talking about Muslims (or cultural markers in general), but about pigmentation levels. In other words: likely motivated by racism.

(and for record: most Jews in Europe are surely 'white' (which is a really stupid term))

Uh, no.

I am talking about unemployment, terrorism, shortage of infrastructure, collapse of the welfare state with mutual trust... yadda yadda...

You don't have to go racist to understand why you don't want hundreds of thousands African or Arab immigrants a year, most with low to non-existant education and from bad cultures with war traumas...



What I am WORRIED about is the reaction when the Swedish people have had enough. We already have a social climate several thousand degrees colder than when I grew up. People no longer TRUST their fellow countrymen - and why?

Quite frankly, because they use rusted daggers to mutilate girls vaginas, because they are at large impossible to have functioning on a western market economy, because they scream ALLAHU AKBAR when we have free speech seminars at our universities...

The problems are real, but you of course prefer to blaim the problems on the "racists". That is just absolutely idiotic.

This is from our most revered university... The problems are because of racism, did I read you right?

[Kadagar_AV]

Errrr, Kad, no.

The Holocaust was about lower-class jealousy, Jews were quite well integrated into Europe at the time despite centuries of legally enforced segregation - in fact the history of the Jews is basically the opposite of how Muslims are treated today in Europe.

Errrr PVC, yeah.

The POINT is 2 cultures trying to share coexistence in one nation. When hardships come, if the other culture is on top, stealing their money, or on the bottom, leeching their money... That does not matter.

What matters is the difference in culture. And that it is an absolute pain on the majority culture.

If you like some other culture so much - move there.

That's also why we created Israel. See, we LEARNT LESSONS after WWII, but with a secure environment comes neglectance.

[Kadagar_AV]

A-ha! is Norwegian.

Actually it's also Swedish...

Sorry for chipping in late, totally missed it. So yeah, PVC was right all along, once again.

EDIT: Can't believe so many people pressed like on the flame on PVC. Sharpen up, you could at least fact-check before you flame someone.

AHA aha⁴ l. aha⁴, äfv. aha⁴ (stundom med kort a i senare stafvelsen), interj. (ah ha GOSSELMAN (1833))
[jfr d., holl., t. o. eng. aha; jfr äfv. fr. ah ah]
[AHA 0]
utrop, då man kommer under fund med l. upptäcker l. får veta ngt; med olika tonfall kan ordet uttrycka öfverraskning (i sht lindrig l. låtsad), belåtenhet, harm, hån m. m.: jaså, såå, ah, å(h), åhå, jag förstår; ofta användes det skämt. l. ironiskt. Men allt detta, svarar mig någon ung studerande, hör blott till anthropologien, till läran om menniskan! – Aha! (dvs. jaså, säger ni det?) min philosoph: jag trodde att vi talte om menniskan. LEOPOLD 3: 380 (1801, 1816). Makár? Aha! så heter då, / Den kära, rymmande personen? DENS. 2: 406 (1802, 1815) Hvad är det för ett blått berg, som jag ser der borta? Aha, nu förstår jag. Det är gränsen emellan det förflutna och det närvarande. LIVIJN 1: 361 (1824). Ah ha! – Var det derföre du gjorde dina många frågor? GOSSELMAN S. o. N. Am. 2: 51 (1833). Brådskande och nyfiket öppnade han (brefven) . . Aha, Rosensteins stil. CRUSENSTOLPE Mor. 3: 240 (1841). Hvem talar der? Aha! .. / Ett stycke lärd! G. L. SILFVERSTOLPE 2: 70 (1852). Aha, klämmer skon der? JOLIN Smäd. 30 (1863). Aha, min gunstig herre. Ar det så? Därs. 88. jfr: Hoity-toity! what's here to do? aha! hvad är här på färde? SERENIUS (1734).

That is the official description of the word in Swedish, not that I think you would get much of it, as I barely do - having taught Swedish ;)

SOURCE: SAOB

[Husar]

I think Germany has undermined the principle of free movement.

Why do your people hate economic Freedom?

Just following your lead.

[Kadagar_AV]

Just following your lead.

You are German, do you might want to explain why you decided to let go of your border control? Post WWII trauma much?

Your chancellor is the damn CULPRIT behind this mess.

I blame you and I damn you. You should have used your intellectual resources towards better things.

[Husar]

You are German, do you might want to explain why you decided to let go of your border control? Post WWII trauma much?

Your chancellor is the damn CULPRIT behind this mess.

I blame you and I damn you. You should have used your intellectual resources towards better things.

[Kadagar_AV]

Don't read me wrong... It's not like I blame Germany for everything, and specifically not for Sweden's situation.

I just want a damned answer as to why your country decided to open up their borders for the migrants, and why you have been one of the loudest voices as of why this idiocy would in any way be sane.

But laugh all you want. I would still prefer you to put some coherent thinking into it.

[Kadagar_AV]

double post

[Fragony]

Laugh all you want but he is right, Germany is breaking EU rules at will, the Dublin treaty is very clear. Sweden has had it tough enough as it is, and MANY want to go there because the wellfare-state is the most generous there. Sweden allready has massive problems with immigrants from the middle-east and Africa right now.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Germany is mishandling this, no matter what size of the fence you sit on. The violation of Dublin and the temporary removal of schengen serves only to destabilize the entire EU which is what Germany does not want. For some odd reason, Germany decided to do the opposite of Hungary instead of fully backing their efforts. Then in a matter of days did a 180 once the scope of the problem became clear.

[Fragony]

Germany is mishandling this, no matter what size of the fence you sit on. The violation of Dublin and the temporary removal of schengen serves only to destabilize the entire EU which is what Germany does not want. For some odd reason, Germany decided to do the opposite of Hungary instead of fully backing their efforts. Then in a matter of days did a 180 once the scope of the problem became clear.

Schengen-treaty allows closing the borders in the case of an emergency, Germany did nothing wrong there. But Merkel just chose to ignore the Dublin treaty and now expect other member-states to take all these refugees in. The Netherlands at least certainly don't have the capacity for that, in some towns the waiting-list for people who can't buy a house are more than 10 years, 20 years in the town where it's worst. That is already the situation now, and guess who gets priority. Good job Germany, disrupting Europe 3 times in about a hundred years.

Indeed, whatever side of the fence you are on, Germany screwed up badly. Not only by giving false hope but also demanding others to pay for the consequences.

[Myth]

http://conservativepost.com/and-so-i...lice-pictures/

[Fragony]

http://conservativepost.com/and-so-i...lice-pictures/

That has been known for a while, IS has also comfirmed it. Most are in Germany and Sweden, the guns come from Brussels

That is old news mind you, it's unkwon how many there are among the current wave but we are in trouble. IS says they will only attack governments but of course it will be bloody. Germany expects 800.000 'refugees'and wants to spread them over Europe, awesome ain't it. It isn't like we weren't warned.

[SwordsMaster]

Some of us familiar with history will likely remember that in the year 376 a massive horde, in the hundreds of thousands, arrived at the bank of the Danube. These were Goths, driven out of their homes by the merciless plundering of the Huns. Contrary to other peoples who were allowed to enter the already shaky Roman Empire, these Goths had not been massacred, vassalised, or enslaved. There are many reasons why they were allowed in - among others, because the Roman Empire was no longer what it used to be.

In the following months these refugees understood the Empire wasn't the paradise they had thought. Its rulers were feeble, and corrupt. It was going through an economic crisis, and there was no wealth, or food for everyone, and that injustice, and the greed of the rulers would be much worse for them than the citizens.

Two years later, at Hadrianopolis the Goths defeated the Roman army, and killed Valens, the Emperor. Only 98 years later, their grandchildren were instrumental in dethroning Augustulos and finally ending what remained of the Empire.

All of that has already happened. We forget. Electing semi-literate politicians we would rather have a beer with than have making difficult decisions is part of the problem. Irresponsible leaders who keep the people in the dark as it is easier to lead sheep are also part of the problem.

Since the dawn of time there have been populations invading one another out of hunger, ambition, pressure from others who invaded them, and fear. Until recently they have all defended themselves the same way - killing invaders on battlefields, taking their women, enslaving their children. And they supported themselves this way until History ended them too, in the same way. Until they came across an invader they could not defeat.

Thankfully, Europe, the heir to the humanist and intellectual traditions, of Talmud, Bible, Dante, Cervantes, Newton, Shakespeare, and Voltaire has established a tradition of human rights and liberties, but this has come with an expiration date. Now it has only money. And money can only buy mercenaries for so long. It makes me wonder, if a new Hitler had risen today, would Europe unite in a response as violent and decisive as in 1939?

We pay for our sins. The disappearance of communist regimes has removed a counterpoint model to the capitalist democracy, idiotic wars in the Middle East which have mostly served to destabilise the region that was not ready for a government in the western model made the pot boil over. The centurions who watched our borders - mercenary as they are at the end of all empires - have also fallen. We want our armies to be NGOs. But without them, the borders are open to the thousands of the desperate that want in. It's a new story for us, but an old one for the world. The inevitable mechanic of history. The hordes are peaceful at first, but faced with discrimination, violence, terrible conditions, and injustice some will inevitable turn to violence. The usual response - to make policing harder, tougher - will only precipitate more violence, ghettoes which will be like dormant volcanoes waiting for the right spark to start their eruption.

This battle cannot be won. There are countless examples in history. We cannot. Our social, moral, political, and intellectual environment will not allow us. We have gone beyond massacring thousands on battlefields, thankfully our civilisation will not tolerate these types of atrocities. The problem is that we have overdone it. We have disarmed the people tasked with defending us, and any vigorous stand against the causes of these migrations is met with pacifist discourse that is as legitimate ideologically, as it is historically blind, with political debates centered around winning the next election where vigorous action is required.

Everything is an enormous contradiction. The citizen, in its moral decisions is better now than he was in centuries past. Certain injustices and cruelty will not be tolerated. This is for the good of humanity. But this will doom the Empire.

So we come to the root: Europe, lacks the capability, the will, the desire, and perhaps even the right to defend itself. We live in the absurd paradox of pitying the barbarians, even celebrating the victories, and at the same time expect to preserve our comfortable lifestyle. Things are not, and cannot be so simple. The Goths will continue arriving in waves, to cities, farms, roads, and borders. It is their right. And they have what Europe doesn't: the hunger, ambition, youth, and decision. Historically there are not many outcomes possible: if they are few, the new arrivals are integrated in the local culture, and it becomes richer as a result; if they are too many they transform it, or destroy it. Not in a day, of course. Empires take generations to fall, and no Pax Romana benefits all.

So what are the remedies? What can we do? In my opinion there are only a couple. First is to realise, as grown ups, that sometimes it is too late to change the consequences of our actions. The bus has rolled off the cliff. Perhaps it is the end of Europe as we know it. Of course much of the old will survive, as we know Homer, and Ovid, and cross roman bridges in Salamanca and Maastricht, so will future generations remember the achievements of the Europe of today. We won't be here to see it. We get off at the next stop.

There are only two possible attitudes in this scenario: One is the analgesic consolation of finding and understanding an explanation of the events. Not to avoid what is inevitable, but to understand that everythink is going to hell. To be the roman who smiles in his library as the barbarians burn the city. Understanding always helps with carrying the burden.

The other attitude is to educate people thinking of their children and grandchildren. To take a long view. To help them understand the world they will inherit, and arm them with the necessary skills to adapt to the inevitable, preserve what they can of the world that is disappearing, and to have the ability to influence the world to come. Give them the tools to survive in an environment that will be for a while, in flux - chaotic, violent, and dangerous. So they can fight for what they believe, or resign to the inevitable, but not for lack of ability, stupidity or indecision, but out of the understanding and lucid thought and intellectual serenity. Allow them to be what they want, or what they can. Whether Greeks, Trojans, or Romans, and allow them to face their world, and improve it without the luggage of past assumptions, and pretensions. Let's not fill them with cheap demagogy, and Walt Disney magic. They will need to survive.

[wooly_mammoth]

^...or we could just pop some lead between the eyes of the terrorists, send back home those who came here just to live off of social services and help those that are fleeing war and are in real need to integrate and get a better future for themselves and the rest of society, should they choose to remain here or go back once the war is over. I think all of this can be done. It's just that morons are waaay too tolerated for their own good (and ours), but with mounting social pressure, that may change, because I don't think all the idiotic (politically correct that is) discourses in the world will be able to help much once jihadis start shooting unbelievers to the left and right.

Oh and communism sucks. My country has been through that, taff it, I'm so glad it's over. I'll take capitalism with all of its sins any day of the week as opposed to that. Taff commies.

[Fragony]

Rule#1 for a historian: history does not repeat itselve. Got to give it to you that it's a great post

edit: was @Swordmaster

[SwordsMaster]

Rule#1 for a historian: history does not repeat itselve. Got to give it to you that it's a great post

edit: was @Swordmaster

Thanks Frags.

History does repeat itself if nobody learns from past mistakes.

[Montmorency]

It makes me wonder, if a new Hitler had risen today, would Europe unite in a response as violent and decisive as in 1939?

Of all the grandstanding of that post, I have to remark on this bit.

Europe did not unite in 1939. It reacted neither decisively nor violently. Indeed, Hitler was able to make the first moves in 1939 precisely because Europe was disunited.

We have no understanding of today's events.

[Viking]

Uh, no.

I am talking about unemployment, terrorism, shortage of infrastructure, collapse of the welfare state with mutual trust... yadda yadda...

You don't have to go racist to understand why you don't want hundreds of thousands African or Arab immigrants a year, most with low to non-existant education and from bad cultures with war traumas...

Irrelevant. You chose to refer to people based on their pigmentation levels ('black' and 'white') rather than their background - i.e. culture and nationality (and just now: biological ethnicity). This more or less implies that their pigmentation level (or their biology in general) is a problem in itself; as if one could not expect people with this and that pigmentation level to behave other than so and so.

Look at it this way: if you could only chose between two words to describe Hitler, 'white guy' and 'Nazi', which one would you chose?

[Fragony]

We have no understanding of today's events.

^ what he says

@ Swordmaster

You can't learn from history, the conditions in what it took place can't jusf be slapped upon wildly different circumstances.

[SwordsMaster]

Of all the grandstanding of that post, I have to remark on this bit.

Europe did not unite in 1939. It reacted neither decisively nor violently. Indeed, Hitler was able to make the first moves in 1939 precisely because Europe was disunited.

We have no understanding of today's events.

This is true. However, the response was mostly united. It was decisive, and it was violent. Ultimatums were kept to the point of atrocious violence. I wonder if European governments today would have taken such a step. The whole Ukraine/Putin situation comes to mind.

[SwordsMaster]

^ what he says

@ Swordmaster

You can't learn from history, the conditions in what it took place can't jusf be slapped upon wildly different circumstances.

Ah, come on. This is like saying you can't learn from a chess game because the pieces were in different positions.