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  1. #1
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Israel Thread

    The context of this post is a couple of UK Labour party MPs being suspended for "anti-semitism" which to my mind looks more like clumsily articulated anti-zionism.

    Israel is lucky in it's enemies. For every reasoned, compassionate, logical opponent of the occupation and the apartheid state, there are 3 nutters who come out with "jews=lizards and the holocaust never happened" type nonsense... or the more cynical would say that the media give 3 times as much coverage to the loons and breezes over the reasoned opponents.

    So opposition to land grabs, removal of citizenship, home demolitions, detention without trial, destruction of infrastructure, separation of communities and families, etc are characterised as anti-semitic.

    My question to those who say critical of Israel = anti-semitism; what would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    As fair and justified critism I suppose. The critism isn't always fair and justified though, a lot of it.
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    It would look like an empty glass?
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    Apr 04-Nov 11 Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Naz Shah is more a victim of the runaway train that is identity politics, rather than anti-semtisim.

    Labour can only blame themselves. There's an assassination piece on the independent right now whcih has all the trappings of vapid leftist journalism, only being employed by a right winger.
    Last edited by Strike For The South; 04-29-2016 at 14:27.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    A non anti-semitic criticism of Israel looks like the peace-now Israeli movement criticism. Quite easy.
    You don't say Hitler had good reasons, you don't quote the "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", or mention any international conspiracy.
    You come with the right reason why you are against the actual Israeli's policy.
    You treat Israel as a normal state, in confrontation with others for reason you analyse.
    You don't pretend to be anti-Zionist in order to hind you are anti-Semitic.

    A lot of lefties became anti-Semitic in being pro-Palestinian, the righties being anti-Semitic from birth.
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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Anti semetic, anti zionist, either way they're being extremely idiotic about how they express their criticism.

    Poor Corbyn, he must be feeling the same sting Cameron does whenever one of his cabnet comes off as hating the working class.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 04-29-2016 at 18:50.
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    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    The context of this post is a couple of UK Labour party MPs being suspended for "anti-semitism" which to my mind looks more like clumsily articulated anti-zionism.

    Israel is lucky in it's enemies. For every reasoned, compassionate, logical opponent of the occupation and the apartheid state, there are 3 nutters who come out with "jews=lizards and the holocaust never happened" type nonsense... or the more cynical would say that the media give 3 times as much coverage to the loons and breezes over the reasoned opponents.

    So opposition to land grabs, removal of citizenship, home demolitions, detention without trial, destruction of infrastructure, separation of communities and families, etc are characterised as anti-semitic.

    My question to those who say critical of Israel = anti-semitism; what would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
    So is this about Israel or about the problem Labour has with anti-Semitism?

    As far as I can tell Naz Shah shared a facebook post which basically said that it would be cheaper, and safer, to ship the entire population of Israel to the US than keep funding Israel. Given that the context of the post was talking about defence spending I suspect the originator was American.

    I haven't seen the post but if it was another one of those captioned images that swirl around facebook it probably wasn't intended to be entirely serious and Shah probably thought it was funny and sharing it would make her look witty.

    Clearly she has been violently disabused of both notions, and has apologised. The fact that this has surfaced about a week before elections is unlikely to be a coincidence.

    The response of the leadership has been pretty pitiful though - they tried to simultaneously condemn her remarks and excuse them, making her look worse and making a suspension and likely expulsion inevitable when it was perhaps not deserved.

    On the other hand Ken Livingston is a card-carrying Anti-Semite. This is the man who compared a Jewish reporter to a Concentration Camp Guard, who said Jews would vote for him as London mayor because they were rich and has now suggested that Hitler plan to force Jews to leave Germany was "supporting Zionism".

    He may not think he's an anti-Semite but can't see how anyone else could think that - he's clearly prejudiced against Jews, uncaring of recent history and prone to seeing them all through the most negative of stereotypes.
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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Hitler.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

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    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Here's the sourse Livingstone is going to cite: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...srael-comments

    Some Marxist from the 80's who, by the looks of it, was canting history pretty hard for his own agenda.
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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    Hitler.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Tell that to Mr. Newt.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Gingrich?
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    With the identity politics of today it seems only a Jew can get away with criticsm of Israel and not being branded a jew hater/antisemitic for instance Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein.

    The anti-semitic accusation is just like politcal correctness it's used to stifle real criticsm of Israel. But what these labour members naz shah and dianne abbott said is bordering on racism and Red Ken is hilarious he keepa digging. the left in their blind support for palestine have turned to hatred of Israel not critiscm. Love it when the left eats itself up!

    All this media fanfare for what a Blairite campaign to kick Corbyn out of Labour?

    I'm sorry but Blair's Labour is gone the shift even further towards a communist party has happened silly new membership rules the influx of the young generation who overwhemingly believe Socialism is better than Capitalism and the reshuffling of MP's who align to Corbyn.

    Brenus you refuse to see facts that go against your preconcieved notion of the right spectrum of politics.
    University education goes a miss on you.
    "the righties being anti-Semitic from birth" <-- please tell me your being sarcastic
    If you think like this no doubt you hold sterotypical views aswell. The irony is lost on you,
    TYPICAL LEFTIES lol, and their identity politics

    The "right" are some of the biggest proponents of Israel!

    I think the left to right political spectrum is an awful way of articulating general political stances.

    This article would tell you a thing or two about the left http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/t...-to-do-racism/
    Last edited by Lizardo; 05-02-2016 at 14:34.

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    Stranger in a strange land Forum Administrator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Finkelstein is certainly not free from antisemitism accusations, at the very least he is accused of being a self-hating Jew. As I remember he was even denied entry into Israel, which has got to be the first time a Jewish person was denied entry. Chomsky gets attacked with the label as well. I agree that the label is overused and real criticism is often stifled by it, but at the same time one must call it out when it actually happens. Its not easy to do as it can be disguised. But with the current state of overusing it, the term has been watered down and I am afraid it has lost its meaning.

    And what I think Brenus meant by the right being antisemitic is the far right, AKA neo-Nazis.
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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny View Post
    It would look like an empty glass?
    No country is perfect so we all have issues to deal with. First step is to look at points of commonality, shared interests and then look at the issues.

    Even the Amish have internal conflicts, normally limited to cutting off each other's beards... So I'm sure there are issues in Israel even without looking at the elephant in the room.

    Name me a country that is perfect and I'll show you a propaganda state... I'm looking at you North Korea.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Question to OP, how are you just not admitting that anti-sematic critism on Israel just exists. I'd like to turn things around. Surily Israel can be critisezed or even hated. But why not hate the rest there or anywhere in the universe and surroundings. Perhaps there just happens to be a thing called anti-semitism?
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Eh, most of the left doesn't like Israel because Israel is on the right, the country votes largely based on fear and therefore ultra-conservative, has people who believe they have a god-given right to take other peoples' land away (and are hardly stopped by the government when they do it) and so on. Show me another modern country that acts like that and is liked by most people. North Korea, Russia, ISIS?

    I think the government has slowly come around to stopping the illegal settlement practices and at the same time it seems criticism has gone down...


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    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Taking Palestinian land because of might makes right and developing nuclear weapons are the two things I really dislike about Israel.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Eh, most of the left doesn't like Israel because Israel is on the right, the country votes largely based on fear and therefore ultra-conservative, has people who believe they have a god-given right to take other peoples' land away (and are hardly stopped by the government when they do it) and so on. Show me another modern country that acts like that and is liked by most people. North Korea, Russia, ISIS?

    I think the government has slowly come around to stopping the illegal settlement practices and at the same time it seems criticism has gone down...
    There is more than enough that is rightfully critised. But I it's how selective the crititism is that kinda makes me suspicious about why people are bothered by Israel's behaviour so much, there are much worse regimes that don't have a magnifying glass hovering over it. If the most outspoken critisers have a really good reason to convince me that it isn't because it is a jewish state I am open for their arguments. Won't automatically assume anti-semitism but I suspect that in many a case it actually is. A mild version, not like nazi's, but some sort of inherent distrust. Israel deserves to be critised, won't say it doesn't.
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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Israel is on the right, the country votes largely based on fear
    ... and not groundless fear. So cut them a slack.

  21. #21
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    ... and not groundless fear. So cut them a slack.
    Ya. without excusing the colonists (who aren't exactly popular) it shouldn't be that hard to admit that Israel exists in a very hostile place
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    There is more than enough that is rightfully critised. But I it's how selective the crititism is that kinda makes me suspicious about why people are bothered by Israel's behaviour so much, there are much worse regimes that don't have a magnifying glass hovering over it. If the most outspoken critisers have a really good reason to convince me that it isn't because it is a jewish state I am open for their arguments. Won't automatically assume anti-semitism but I suspect that in many a case it actually is. A mild version, not like nazi's, but some sort of inherent distrust. Israel deserves to be critised, won't say it doesn't.
    It's about as selective as the support, a lot of countries throw weapons, technology and other support at Israel in a way that other allies don't get it. And the whole Holocaust thing put Jews in an even bigger spotlight. This also makes a lot of people think that people who claim to know what it is like to be treated in an incredibly unfair way should know better than to do the same to others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    ... and not groundless fear. So cut them a slack.
    Taking more land away from other people and talking smack about the neighbors will surely remove the reasons for that fear sooner rather than later.
    When was the last time peaceful coexistence was successfully enforced with guns? Crimea?


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  23. #23

    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Daesh in suits.

  24. #24
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    It's about as selective as the support, a lot of countries throw weapons, technology and other support at Israel in a way that other allies don't get it. And the whole Holocaust thing put Jews in an even bigger spotlight. This also makes a lot of people think that people who claim to know what it is like to be treated in an incredibly unfair way should know better than to do the same to other
    Also selective sure. But where are Israel critisers when other countries are building a wall, or even gassing tunnels or flooding them. A lot of Palestinians are from Libanon and they are not allowed to get back. If you ask me who has the most right to behave this way I really can't not excuse them or at least understand it. As for taking land, well they didn't start the war, Europe is full of shifting borders who are we to lecture them.
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Also selective sure. But where are Israel critisers when other countries are building a wall, or even gassing tunnels or flooding them. A lot of Palestinians are from Libanon and they are not allowed to get back. If you ask me who has the most right to behave this way I really can't not excuse them or at least understand it. As for taking land, well they didn't start the war, Europe is full of shifting borders who are we to lecture them.
    Apparently I don't stalk Israel's criticizers as closely as you do, so I can't really tell you where they are in other cases of atrocities.
    Not sure what else you are saying, which borders have shifted in Europe since WW2?


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  26. #26
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Apparently I don't stalk Israel's criticizers as closely as you do, so I can't really tell you where they are in other cases of atrocities.
    Not sure what else you are saying, which borders have shifted in Europe since WW2?
    Your own for example, and the Polish weren't exactly very kind to Germans.

    love this animation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iha3OS8ShYs what are we yapping about really
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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Taking more land away from other people and talking smack about the neighbors will surely remove the reasons for that fear sooner rather than later.
    When was the last time peaceful coexistence was successfully enforced with guns? Crimea?
    When Israel proclaimed its foundation it was made war upon at once before it started taking land form others. Later it happened again and again, not to mention constant terrorist attacks inside the country. Arab countries which border on Israel have an issue with the very existence of Israel. Wouldn't it make anyone talk smack of those who do it? A country which lives in the perpetual state of alert (or war, for a change) is not likely to act differently, talk differently or vote differently.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Ya. Violence against jew by the usual suspects, are there any excuses for that as well, or mayyyyyybe a lot of muslims just hate jews. And a (very succesful) Jewish state outright offends them. Especially because they will never match them in anything.
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    You mean Arab countries don't match them in anything. "Muslim countries" is an overstatement. Also, Israel is an illegitimate country, an anachronism as long as the current regime stands. When it reforms its discrimination against its very own citizens as a democratic state than you can talk about how it has the right to do anything.

    Who knows, maybe they will someday.
    Last edited by Showtime; 05-09-2016 at 20:28.

  30. #30
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    You mean Arab countries don't match them in anything. "Muslim countries" is an overstatement
    Fair enough. But has got to hurt to see Israel do so well when one thinks islam is superior
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