Brexit Thread

[Beskar]

[Greyblades]

I need to be in a better mood to deal with that video beskar right now I almost mistook it for a repeat of that patrick stewart skit over the human rights court.

How often does such legislation pass? I.e. where is the use of that if the chance that it actually passes is around 1% or so?

How often does legislation get voted upon by MEP's that dont get approved by the Comission? Around 0% or so?

But that is only in one body of the EU and we seem unable to actually figure out how powerful it really is compared to the EU parliament. Of course you will now say it's the most important body of the EU and basically decides everything by itself, but I have my doubts about that, just like I do about the usual argument that the EU only works for the corporations. Because so do a lot of national governments and it doesn't even explain all the punishments and legislation the EU dished out against certain corporations. For example several tech fiants from the US are under constant scrutiny by the EU, discriminatory business practices by online shops are being reviewed, misleading advertisement on water and regarding other food was banned and so on. The idea to privatize all basic water supply seems terrible though, I'll agree with that. The point is that it's not nearly as one-sided as Brexiteers make it out to be. The EU is what the members make of it, much like a national government. In both cases you have to make concessions and fight corporate influence.

It's the most important because without it's consent nothing gets voted on; it is the only body that can present legislation for vote, the parliament can only say yes or no it cannot alter or rewrite anything the comission puts out.

It's performance thus far might not be as tyranical as some believe but it is much less representative of the people and is basically impossible for the people to hold it to account if it doesnt present what the people wants it to. Britain's House of Parliament despite it's faults is a better democratic body than it is.

We'll see about that once you have left.

Finally lost hope Husar?

I hope the shock will be enough to reform it, I really do.

[Furunculus]

The long answer:

I give my consent that you may govern in my name, and assent to be bound by the actions you take in my name as if they were my own.
However, the authority to govern that you possess in consequence is never to be leased out to a third party, and I will not deem those actions as were they my own.

What it boils down to is who ‘us’ is.

Am I a European? Why yes, how could I not recognise, respect, and admire the nations that have in so many ways shaped what is the UK today. Do I not desire the peace and harmony among peoples that is bred by cooperation and collaboration between us? But of course!

Why do I not love the EU? Because I celebrate the differences, and believe that – post Mastricht – the peoples of Europe have become enslaved by conformity. Arguably, the eurozone periphery has become enslaved by poverty too, given the unwillingness of participating nations to surrender to the logical consequence of their shared currency; economic and political union.

It is a technocratic machine that has no understanding of the concept of Demos, and in attempting to assume the mantle of Kratos, is failing to be both representative of and accountable to the people[s] of Europe.

The crucial feature of indirect democracy is the perception of representation, the collective trust in shared aims and expectations that allows the people to put their destiny in the hands of another, safe in the knowledge that even if ‘their’ man doesn’t get the job then the other guy will still be looking after their best interests.

The manner in which this trust is built is the knowledge that you and ‘he’ have a history of cooperation, and that your respective families likewise have a shared social and cultural history of cooperation, all of which allows you to trust that when adversity strikes ‘he’ will act in a predictable and acceptable way.

This cannot be achieved when the aims and expectations of the peoples of Europe are so divergent that every policy response is a protracted argument resulting in a lowest-common-denominator solution. It is a recipe for indecision, aimless triangulation, and unhappiness. It is the ultimate example of the principle-policy puzzle.

Back to first principles. What do I want?

The supremacy of Parliament, and a Supreme Court that acts only to make sure that Parliament acts in accordance with the laws that it makes.
I want a happy and content Europe, that allows the UK to focus its energy to the best of our ability on ensuring the rest of the world is likewise happy and content.
A low taxation/low regulation society, able to continue with our Negative Liberty bent, happily between the extremes of the continent and the US.
An interventionist Foreign Policy, with both the means and will to see it employed in the pursuit of our enlightened national interest.

We have the principle. How does this translate to a problem?

The interference of the EU and its supporting bodies is breeding discontent at home, and encroaching on our fundamental sovereignty.
In forcing the smaller nations of Europe to march in lock-step towards ever-closer-union it breeds discontent that dissipates our focus on the wider world.
Eurozone convergence with consensus managed by QMV will see our taxation and regulation ‘harmonised’ upwards, and our society more beholden to Positive Liberty.
The EU fails to understand that an interventionist Foreign Policy requires direction and purpose, the decision to spend blood and treasure cannot be ‘calibrated’.

We have the problem. What is the solution?

For the UK, a Europe that is interested in cooperation and collaboration, through trade and other means, via the intergovernmental method.
For the nations of Europe, to choose individually an identity that fits their aims and expectations, whether that results in more integration or less.
For us to continue with a society that is more individual than collective, a liberal democracy that celebrates eccentricity rather than merely tolerating it.
For Britain to avoid supranational constructs that bind both our capability and our will to intervene, and pursuing instead bilateralism and multilaterlism.

Hold on, you say. This does not require us to leave the EU, surely?

No, the UK could determine the application of the ECHR via subsidiarity and the margin for appreciation… if the EUropean zeitgeist rejected judicial activism.
No, Sweden and Poland could de-jure back out of euro-accession, and Denmark Schengen membership… if the EU zeitgeist respected national autonomy.
No, the UK could continue within the EU as a fundamentally individualist liberal democracy… if the EU zeitgeist respected national autonomy.
No, the nations of Europe could continue to cooperate and collaborate effectively through NATO… if the EU zeitgeist respected national autonomy.

But, none of these things happen. For the EU is a stasis-machine, trapped by its inability to represent the interests of its people[s], and so it must further remove itself from accountability to those same people[s]. It cannot move forward, and it cannot move backward, all it can it do is breed resentment in its compromise.

What is needed is rupture.

To paraphrase text more familiar to the discussion of climate change: “that the EU has been chaotic and quasi stable long before the euro and schengen crises arrived, and that the real argument is whether eurosceptic input is disruptive enough to re-position Europe into a new and wholly desirable quasi-stable state.”

What is needed is an EU that does not force non-eurozone nations to constantly guard against encroachments on their fundamental sovereignty, thus freeing the eurozone to integrate to whatever degree necessary to provide stable and legitimate governance. What is needed is an EU that does not force new and existing member states to march up in lock-step with every integrationist measure, regardless of whether they would willingly choose it or otherwise. Achieving this will move Europe beyond lowest-common-denominator solutions, to a place where selective collaboration through shared interest produces a stronger outcome.

A core able to integrate, a periphery happy to cooperate.

Do we have to leave to enable this rupture? No, perhaps it is enough that we vote to remain on a wafer thin margin, but, what cannot happen is a decisive 60/40 vote to remain. For the good of Europe.

For the avoidance of doubt, things that don’t matter:

Straight bananas. Symptom, not cause.
Strasbourg. Symptom, not cause.
Immigration. Insomuch as I care, it is only because HMG is forced to unfairly discriminate against Commonwealth countries.
EU budget. It’s chicken-feed in the grand scheme of things.

These matters are best determined by ‘us’ regardless of whether the ‘us’ is Britons, Poles, Swedes, or a new federal state comprising the regions of France, Germany, Belgium, etc..

Vote leave.

[Husar]

How often does legislation get voted upon by MEP's that dont get approved by the Comission? Around 0% or so?

What does it matter if the result is usually the same? Seems like nitpicking.

It's the most important because without it's consent nothing gets voted on; it is the only body that can present legislation for vote, the parliament can only say yes or no it cannot alter or rewrite anything the comission puts out.

It's performance thus far might not be as tyranical as some believe but it is much less representative of the people and is basically impossible for the people to hold it to account if it doesnt present what the people wants it to. Britain's House of Parliament despite it's faults is a better democratic body than it is.

Yes, but what your member of the Commission wants can be influenced by who you vote for nationally?
Is Britain such a special snowflake that noone else in the EU every agrees with it or where is the issue?
Doesn't Britain have quite a few exceptions regarding EU membership? How did that ever happen if all the other mean countries are constantly bullying poor little Britain?

Finally lost hope Husar?

I hope the shock will be enough to reform it, I really do.

You're assuming that I ever had the kind of hope you are referring to. Maybe Britain getting out will finally allow the EU to reform.

[Gilrandir]

if the russians fired 50 missiles at western europe and NATO fired 50 back, russia would lose missiles in transit while all 50 USA missiles got through.

Do yopu realize that those in Russia are old Soviet missiles? Russia would lose half of them at launching and half of the rest would fall in Russia never reaching the goal.

The long answer...
These matters are best determined by ‘us’ regardless of whether the ‘us’ is Britons, Poles, Swedes, or a new federal state comprising the regions of France, Germany, Belgium, etc..

Vote leave.

Short reply: What of 'us' the Scots? Vote leave and you will see....

[Greyblades]

Do you realize that those in Russia are old Soviet missiles? Russia would lose half of them at launching and half of the rest would fall in Russia never reaching the goal.

Touche.

[Husar]

Do yopu realize that those in Russia are old Soviet missiles? Russia would lose half of them at launching and half of the rest would fall in Russia never reaching the goal.

Touche.

I wouldn't be so sure:

USA: https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...n-floppy-disks
Russia: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ze-FRANCE.html

[Beskar]

I wouldn't be so sure:

You know the saying people love... "Don't fix what isn't broken".

[Furunculus]

Short reply: What of 'us' the Scots? Vote leave and you will see....

that's your call, THE Scot's knew this was coming when the scottish [independence] referendum was happening a few years back.

[Gilrandir]

that's your call, scot's new this was coming when the scottish [independence] referendum a few years back.

We will see. Still, I'd like to see polls on Brexit in Scotland.

I wouldn't be so sure:
Russia: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ze-FRANCE.html

The Kremlin's new intercontinental ballistic missile will be ready for field trials this summer, according to the Russian news network Zvezda, which is owned by Russia's ministry of defence.


You should find out something on reliability of Russian media, especially state-owned media, and especially Zvezda.

Just think of it: last nuclear explosion test in Russia was taken in 1989, when it was still the USSR. Since then the warheads kept from those times have been rusting on their launchpads.

[Husar]

You should find out something on reliability of Russian media, especially state-owned media, and especially Zvezda.

Just think of it: last nuclear explosion test in Russia was taken in 1989, when it was still the USSR. Since then the warheads kept from those times have been rusting on their launchpads.

I knew you'd say that, but the development of such missiles is probably not a secret.
As for the dates:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_testing

Underground tests in the United States continued until 1992 (its last nuclear test), the Soviet Union until 1990, the United Kingdom until 1991, and both China and France until 1996. In signing the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty in 1996, these states have pledged to discontinue all nuclear testing. However, as of December 2013, the treaty has not yet entered into force because of failure to be signed/ratified by eight specific countries. Non-signatories India and Pakistan last tested nuclear weapons in 1998.

I don't think the date of the last test tells us a lot though, especially not about the missiles used to deliver the warheads.
And you conveniently ignored that US warheads are also largely rotting in some bunkers.

While one could argue the US are rebuilding and modernizing their nukes: https://next.ft.com/content/14bcff98...b-fc683b5e52db
This article makes Russia look more ready to use it: http://time.com/4280169/russia-nuclear-security-summit/

Also this: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35845232

Oh yeah: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y1ya-yF35g

[Gilrandir]

I knew you'd say that, but the development of such missiles is probably not a secret.

Look at this and count how many fakes out of those were published by Zvezda:
http://www.russialies.com/russias-to...ional-edition/
It is likely to spin a story out of nothing.

I don't think the date of the last test tells us a lot though, especially not about the missiles used to deliver the warheads.
And you conveniently ignored that US warheads are also largely rotting in some bunkers.

I didn't ignore it, I just spoke of things I know. Within the last two years Russia had a string of accidents with their "flying objects", mostly military and mostly planes:
http://www.businessinsider.com/russi...overuse-2015-7
but some with missiles:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a6686856.html
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/proton_glonass49.html
So I know that Russian strategic forces are not likely to deliver, so to say.
I didn't hear of accidents with their American counterparts, so I say only what I know.

Also this: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35845232

Do I have to remind you of drinking traditions in Russia? (Husar: I knew you would say it).

[Pannonian]

Only one idiot actually showed disrespect on this board and he was a 5 post blunder that dissapeared after getting rejected, we arent at the level you say we are quite yet.

Someone else also called the other political side "scum".

[Greyblades]

Yes in response to others disrespecting the dead for political points. Kinda appropriate use of the word really.

[Furunculus]

We will see. Still, I'd like to see polls on Brexit in Scotland.

http://news.sky.com/story/1714132/co...ish-referendum

[Brenus]

"France needs the EU" Really?

[Pannonian]

Yes in response to others disrespecting the dead for political points. Kinda appropriate use of the word really.

Political points like finding far right links in the killer's background? I've seen rightists accusing the liberal left of avoiding uncomfortable facts, so should we avoid these facts just because the right is uncomfortable with him sharing their platform?

[Fragony]

keep your cool's man, left and right don't exist

[edyzmedieval]

3 days to go, and as far as exit polls go, the Leave camp is ahead in the polls.

[Beskar]

Guardian: Brexit is the only way the working class can change anything
http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...-eu-referendum

Social Party: Why socialists should leave the EU
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/22495

Message from the Dutch about their recent referendum:

DEAR BRITS,
Allow us a minute of your time to tell you an anecdote about democracy in the European Union.
Last April, the Netherlands held a national referendum on the EU Association Treaty with Ukraine. We, the organisers, wanted to have a more direct say in European Union developments, because we are worried about the ongoing and highly undemocratic expansionism of the EU. No government in Europe should be allowed to make far-reaching decisions without a majority consent.
So we set out to do something about it, and thanks to a successful Internet campaign and nearly half a million signatures, we forced our government to hold a referendum.
On April 6, a convincing 61 percent of the Dutch voters said “No” to the undesirable Association Treaty. So was that the end of that? Was democracy saved from the talons of the EU technocrats?
..And then we were ignored
Unfortunately, no. Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte, forced by his betters in Brussels, decided to completely ignore the outcome of the referendum. The Dutch voter was shunned by their national leaders, and, once again, democratic voices were muffled by the unelected officials of the European Union.
As the organizers of the Dutch referendum, we are not here to meddle in your national business. Dear Lord no — We’re not Brussels. But we do feel a need to tell you our story. Because democracy matters. And in the European Union – the people’s voices are silenced and shunned.
Read and share our story. Decide for yourself how highly you value the sovereignty of your national democracy. And cast your vote accordingly on June 23rd.
With love,
Your democratic friends from the Netherlands

[Fragony]

We also voted no to a fargoing europian constitution, they just call it something else and do it anyway. The pvv of Wilders is the only party that wants referenda to be binding, and also want out, biggest party in the polls. The bewildering argument of ignoring the outcome is that people who didn't vote should also be heard, wut. Really ugly all this, it has been sabotaged from the start, reducing places to vote, press ignoring it untill they couldn't anymore. Moral victory is ours but we gained nothing. People who argue that a lot of people voted no just because they can and did that at the expense of the Ukrainians have a point I won't deny that, but there are very good reasons why most voted against it.

[Gilrandir]

http://news.sky.com/story/1714132/co...ish-referendum

A nice map, but still no overall figures.

[Beskar]

The song to sum up British feelings about the EU, to the tune of the EU anthem (Beethoven's Ode to Joy)

https://youtu.be/iAgKHSNqxa8?t=13m55s

F**k you, European Union!
Tally-ho, you f**king pr***s!
We are the United Kingdom!
You can eat our spotted dicks!

That being said,
We're not going to leave you,
Turns out we need you!
Nonetheless,
F**k you, European Union!
It feels good to tell you this!

Poland is depressing,
And there's vampires in Romania.
Spain is far too hot
And where the f**k is Lithuania?

To be fair, Slovenia's lovely,
(We're only kidding, it sucks too!)
But we must admit,
Without these countries
We'd be really screwed!

F**k the European Union,
Even though we must admit,
We would all be bats**t crazy,
If we vote for leaving it!

[Greyblades]

If one man's action is going to change your mind, maybe I can change it back with this one's?

[Pannonian]

If one man's action is going to change your mind, maybe I can change it back with this one's?

Does this mean that the killer was indeed doing this in connection with the referendum campaign, rather than this being some kind of baseless anti-leave allegation?

[Greyblades]

Who knows, I'm just trying to lure back an Old-labour fan who appeared to be starting to sympathise with brexit before the assassination.

[Fragony]

yay, 48% want nexit, 45% don't. Italy hates the EU even more, Germans aren't very enthousiastic either to my surprise 36% want out.

[InsaneApache]

How has it been discredited?
We keep getting more and more poor people and social issues, we almost have to shoot even poorer people to keep them from trying to come here while others try to blow us up because they hate us, when will Capitalism solve that?
Your own country wants out of the EU because the EU is too capitalist and doesn't care about the fishermen, no?

Let's see.

USSR.

Cambodia.

North Korea.

Argentina.

Venezuela.

Etc.

Perhaps you can point to a socialist country that has prospered?

Oh and capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty these last thirty years then any other system.

[CupHead5998]

Personally as an American i HOPE the brits leave the EU, it's a rotten structure that needs to topple it's also getting dangerously authoritarian with the EU army proposal that and most British laws are not made by Brits which in fairness is an annoying and utterly idiotic idea how would a guy in Brussels know what the average Brit wants? he doesn't! but its up to the British people. if i could i'd vote leave, the guy on youtube "Sargon of Akkad" made a few good videos on it actually that i won't link here. Now i won't reveal who in the American election i'm putting my vote in for since he's a tad bit controversial! @InsaneApache
Anybody who would argue for a communist government does not understand that communist systems always fall to dictatorship they have before and they always will See "Holodomor" where soviets committed a Ukrainian genocide. I'm rather poor (always have been) i am a working class man and i notice always that the socialists/communists are usually richer than me and more uptight despite "Caring for the working man" Now this isn't true EVERYWHERE but it's certainly evident to me and just seems like a dangerous form of virtue signalling that will lead to death and dictatorship.

[Beskar]

Perhaps you can point to a socialist country that has prospered?

Norway?

Depends on what you call 'socialist' too. The faux-communist countries you listed are not socialist, but there are great many examples of democratic socialism in Europe such as Scandinavian countries and even post war Britain.

Also there is an issue on what you call 'capitalist' too. Since there is the corrupt hypercapitalism in places like the USA where corporates buy the government.