Climate Change Thread

[Pannonian]

It'd be hard to argue that any of the African countries given full independence in the 60s-80s were ready for independence. Lots of them only had handful of educated people capable of running departments previously run by colonial officals. Then there are the violent tribal dynamics and infighting that came out once there was real political power to struggle for.

Just look at the independence of the Belgian Congo and the 30 years of warfare there that spread into all of the neighboring countries and colonies. Places like Angola which were actually well off economically under the Portuguese turned into warzones. The tribal dynamics for all their ups and downs were upset by communist insurgents that were happy to kill off any 'feudal' lords or collaborators.
While I don't agree with apartheid or minority rule in South Africa or Rhodesia it's no wonder that Ian Smith or the Afrikaners were not willing to welcome majority rule after seeing the chaos and bloodletting to the North of them.

It would have helped if the newly independent countries had had some sort of transition period so they could have security forces in place, functioning government service and offer at least some stability instead of the free for all that ended up happening.

I honestly think that the short sighted and selfish washing of hands independence by the European powers of their colonies was a greater crime than establishing them in the first place.

The US actively undermined the colonial powers at the end of WW2. Keynes was upset at the terms set out for renewal of lend lease, declaring it was tantamount to giving up the empire. There are numerous accounts from American officials stating that they weren't going to let the British gain from the war like the last time round. India in particular had to be made independent ASAP, rather than when the British deemed it suitable.

[spmetla]

I'm well aware of the US assistance in the de-colonization until it realized too late it only resulted in Communist dictatorships leading to our support of other pro-Western dictatorships.

The US didn't want France to keep Indo-china or Britain to regain Hong Kong either.

American policy was naive in thinking in the absence of colonies that freedom, democracy and open markets would occur naturally.

It still doesn't excuse giving full independence without prepping the new country for it.

[Pannonian]

I'm well aware of the US assistance in the de-colonization until it realized too late it only resulted in Communist dictatorships leading to our support of other pro-Western dictatorships.

The US didn't want France to keep Indo-china or Britain to regain Hong Kong either.

American policy was naive in thinking in the absence of colonies that freedom, democracy and open markets would occur naturally.

It still doesn't excuse giving full independence without prepping the new country for it.

What else could we do? See Suez. After that, it was clear the only independent action we could get involved in was prevent Communism. Anything else and the Americans call in the debts.

[Montmorency]

Wasn't it largely a refusal by Washington to pay to prop up disintegrating empires?

It's true that from a contemporary perspective an internationalist could call for the USA to offer transitional foreign aid, but as far as sustaining the colonial power structure it would have been even worse than warlords and Communists and right-wing tinpots, in a humanitarian as well as an economic way.

[Montmorency]

What else could we do? See Suez. After that, it was clear the only independent action we could get involved in was prevent Communism. Anything else and the Americans call in the debts.

Interesting article on the relevance of the Suez Crisis case for the American Empire.

[Gilrandir]

Yes, notice how Russia had to re-colonize some southern regions when the independent country that tried to run them failed because it wasn't ready yet.

Shall I quote you?

You are very unclear once more. ... Because your post could be interpreted several ways ...

[Husar]

Shall I quote you?

I was using the occupation of Crimea and Donbass to make fun of Greyblades' argument.

[Greyblades]

Poorly, your entire argument requires a preconception of russia as being equivalent to late colonial Britain, France, Belgium. and Portugal.

[Husar]

Poorly, your entire argument requires a preconception of russia as being equivalent to late colonial Britain, France, Belgium. and Portugal.

Yes, I forgot that Slavs are also Untermenschen in your ideology. Mea culpa.

[Gilrandir]

I was using the occupation of Crimea and Donbass to make fun of Greyblades' argument.

Your comparison was invalid. First of all, Crimea and Donbas aren't now colonies of Russia. Second of all, Ukraine didn't FAIL to rule them, it would still rule them had Russia not invaded them.

[Husar]

Your comparison was invalid. First of all, Crimea and Donbas aren't now colonies of Russia. Second of all, Ukraine didn't FAIL to rule them, it would still rule them had Russia not invaded them.

Oh really? That's shocking! I thought my one-liner was on the level of a PhD...

[HopAlongBunny]

The Arctic is where it's happening

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...oaa-computers/

The warming is fast enough to cause the NOAA's computers to flag the data as possibly erroneous

[Devastatin Dave]

Its called "weather"....

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Its called "weather"....

This thread is about "whether..."

[Devastatin Dave]

This thread is about "whether..."

Whether its weather or whether the weather is whether you believe in man made climate change or whether it's just weather. You're going to have to be more clear on your comment or You're going to have to sell me sail on sale to but on my bout in case I get flooded out.

[Gilrandir]

Its called "weather"....

This thread is about "whether..."

Thank God it's not about wether.

[HopAlongBunny]

Whether or not it's just weather, it is just damn strange for the people living through it:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/...thaw-1.4554864

"one swallow does not a summer make" and all that

[Beskar]

We got weather bombed by Siberia, even the place I am at which never snows is experiencing a blizzard.
http://theconversation.com/beast-fro...an-chill-92385

[Fragony]

Same here, it's really cold, temperatures as low as -20. I don't really mind, normally it's rainy and grey this time of the year, everything is kinda beautiful now

[HopAlongBunny]

I find it interesting.
Mainly because of a SCIAM article from back in the '90s.
Among the many observations the author made was a discussion of how wind patterns could change.
Yes it's a little disturbing seeing it play out in real-time, but it's kinda cool too :p
"Why didn't someone say something!?" someone did (actually many) and here we are.

[Fragony]

It's pretty straightforward, we are a little less close to the sun so it's colder. it's a pattern that has been consistant for millions of years. At times the planets allign differently and the earth ges pulled out of orbit a bit, I doubt anyone at NASA disagrees with that it's as exact as a rolex. Manmade ckimate-change is beyond rediculous. At least it helps to make things cleaner if people believe in it, but nuclear energy ohnoes.

[HopAlongBunny]

The thing that is not happening is already having some real world impact:

https://www.motherjones.com/environm...lobal-warming/

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...than-20-years/

The Greenland base was entombed in ice. At the time, it was thought it would be entombed "forever" (thank you to CrossLOPER for pointing out that term should be used very carefully)
Both facilities will likely "rot in place"; too bad if you are a resident or live nearby.

[Fragony]

It has always been happening https://www.google.nl/search?client=...GNdVjz-px3j1M:

What also always been happening is that religion flourishes when things get a bit inconvenient, and manmade-global warming is a religion, everything happened before. Ever thought about why Greenland is called Greenland, here's why, during the medieval warmth it was green furtile land

[HopAlongBunny]

It has always been happening https://www.google.nl/search?client=...GNdVjz-px3j1M:

during the medieval warmth it was green furtile land

Maybe, the way I understood it, it was called Greenland to encourage people to settle there; Iceland was so-named to discourage settlement.
An early example of "truth in real estate development".

After a little bit of exercising my Google abilities it seems both explanations have support.
Thank you Fragony

[Fragony]

Your welcome, just bring an umbrella when it rains, we can't control this, it's really idiotic to think we can

[Sarmatian]

You are all aware that this a Putin's weapon test?

If you won't come to Mother Russia, Mother Russia will come to you.

[Fragony]

Something did come from Russia, the Syberian air. FFS it's cold, today slightly less but my hands are still blue after cycling in the morning, it has been really cold all week.

[HopAlongBunny]

Correlation not causation.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...on-east-coast/

Okay, they're not sure that warming in the Arctic causes cold spells down south, it just seems to happen that way.
The observation does not rule out some other, as yet unobserved or overlooked cause.
So "global warming" might make some of us cold, damn cold

[Beskar]

The Final Call for change.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-45775309

[Montmorency]

https://www.livescience.com/63709-tr...7-degrees.html

A recently issued environmental report suggests that leaders in the Trump administration have already shrugged off the possibility of putting the brakes on climate change, a stance that embraces a catastrophic future for the planet.

Scientists have warned that if current levels of fossil fuel consumption continue unchecked, Earth could warm by as much as 7 degrees Fahrenheit (4 degrees Celsius) by 2100.

And according to this report, that prediction is already accepted by the government as inevitable — and nothing will be done to prevent it [...]

Drafted in July, the environmental report was issued by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), and its goal was to justify President Trump's proposal to freeze gas-mileage standards for light trucks and cars produced after 2020, according to The Washington Post.

Pushing to make vehicles more fuel efficient would reduce harmful emissions that contribute to global warming, while Trump's plan increases greenhouse gas emissions. But in a scenario where dire warming by 2100 was a foregone conclusion, Trump's policy wouldn't make that much of a difference, The Washington Post reported.

According to the report, turning the tide of runaway climate change would require "substantial increases in technology innovation and adoption," and attempting such sweeping and dramatic change — even with the stakes as high as they are — is "not currently technologically feasible or economically feasible."