Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Why doesn't Spain want to get rid of Catalonia then?
Not sure what you're trying to argue here.
I might as well argue that getting beaten by the Spanish police is entirely a problem of the Catalans, not the Spanish or the EU, but then again I'm not such an ass. Note that while I argued before that the intervention was justified in general, I didn't mean breaking individual peoples' noses for no reason.
Last edited by Husar; 10-05-2017 at 18:47.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
I don't quite see what you are getting at. In this context, the reimbursements would be to compensate for Spain's investments in Catalonia that it can no longer expect be able reap rewards from to the same extent due to Catalonia departing. The closest colonial parallel would the former colonies asking for reimbursement from an empire that disowned them after leeching on their resources. If you are the one asking for independence, it is meaningless to set conditions for your independence. What you could have done, would be to ask for reimbursement in order to stay in the empire and not demand independence.
That Catalonia doesn't owe anything to Spain because of the trade balance, naturally; unless Spain has privileged Catalonia somehow on the markets.
Last edited by Viking; 10-05-2017 at 19:11.
Runes for good luck:
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Like Catalonia doesn't owe Spain remaining a part of the country, I'd think.
It doesn't.
This is about the agent wanting change giving what they owe so that they can claim that they do not owe the other party anything any more and can go ahead with the change in good conscience.
If you are the one being owed, then you are on the other side of the equation and the situation is reversed. To declare independence in good conscience, you don't need to give anything; it's the other side that needs to pay up before they can go ahead with a change that you do not want.
Runes for good luck:
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So it's a question of power. As always?Like Catalonia doesn't owe Spain not declaring independence, I'd think.
This implies that there is a way to account for "what is owed", in which case it can be applied to any international relationship.If you are the one being owed, then you are on the other side of the equation and the situation is reversed.
And "other side" implies that the parties have already been determined, but this is one of the things still under dispute.
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I'd think so. Power, and its application or absence thereof.
That's ultimately a matter of definition. The main point is that if it is considered that Catalonia owes something to the rest of Spain, it could give that to the rest of Spain, if possible (and if it is not possible for Catalonia to give what it is considered owing, then you can argue that it is not fair to have this impossible repayment as a precondition for Catalonia's independence).This implies that there is a way to account for "what is owed", in which case it can be applied to any international relationship.
Ultimately, the core of this argument is about what could be done in terms of repayment, not what should be done. It doesn't lead to the conclusion that former colonial powers should pay their former colonies; it's about Catalonia clearing its name, so to speak.
Not sure what you are thinking of here.And "other side" implies that the parties have already been determined, but this is one of the things still under dispute.
Runes for good luck:
[1 - exp(i*2π)]^-1
If it's a matter of "could", not "should", then isn't it irrelevant to the matter?That's ultimately a matter of definition. The main point is that if it is considered that Catalonia owes something to the rest of Spain, it could give that to the rest of Spain, if possible (and if it is not possible for Catalonia to give what it is considered owing, then you can argue that it is not fair to have this impossible repayment as a precondition for Catalonia's independence).
Ultimately, the core of this argument is about what could be done in terms of repayment, not what should be done. It doesn't lead to the conclusion that former colonial powers should pay their former colonies; it's about Catalonia clearing its name, so to speak.
Putting cart before horse, taking Catalonian agency for granted in musing a transaction between partners.Not sure what you are thinking of here.
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Husar's argument seemed to be that Catalonia cannot declare independence unilaterally because it owes Spain so much. If this is your objection, you could just require that Catalonia should repay what it owes at some point, as far as it able to (and if Spain would not accept this repayment out of principle because it does not recognise Catalonia's independence, then that would be Spain's issue).
Again I am afraid I am a bit confused. Are you questioning the concept of 'Catalan agency' in a different manner than you would question e.g. the concept of 'Spanish agency'?Putting cart before horse, taking Catalonian agency for granted in musing a transaction between partners.
Runes for good luck:
[1 - exp(i*2π)]^-1
I thought he was disputing that contemporary negative net revenue outlays between Catalonia and the rest of Spain justified Catalonian separatism.
Just that you need equal partners to make that kind of settlement. Let's abstractly say that a unilateral offer to sweeten the separation of parties isn't valid if a potential party rejects the existence or legitimacy of such a negotiation.Again I am afraid I am a bit confused. Are you questioning the concept of 'Catalan agency' in a different manner than you would question e.g. the concept of 'Spanish agency'?
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
"The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken
Does it all matter, Spain profitted yes, always has. But economy stopped being important when Madrid decided to go all berserk on Catalonians. Madrid's only option is more violence and that will only make things worse for Madrid. They are idiots and have a big problem, unlike Catalonia the rest of Spain isn't self-sufficient. Eurocrats also have - problem, yet another, champagne on that! Another axe-cut in the tree, pieces in our time
Last edited by Fragony; 10-06-2017 at 07:33.
A large area voted overwhelmingly to leave. They should be allowed to leave. I imagine that Sudan did not constitutionally have the ability to let South Sudan leave, and yet they did. South Sudan is also in a much worse financial position yet they'd rather freedom. Their choice.
An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
"If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill
An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
"If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill
Slovenia was. I believe Croatia came next in its economic development.
Do I have to lecture you on history? Google it.
First of all, this is an arbitrary statement that needs statistical substantiation.
Second of all, since they were different in their development and now they are (more or less) prosperous countries, the starting point doesn't seem to matter.
An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
"If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill
If their independence has any substance, they should be able to resist or sidestep any such moves. They opted not to sidestep by unilaterally declaring independence without outside or Spanish support. If they can't then resist Spanish action, what practical worth is their declared independence?
Last edited by Husar; 10-06-2017 at 16:02.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Spain could formally interpret the offer as coming from an autonomous region rather than an independent country.
At any rate, the point was not to argue that a reimbursement was a probable outcome. The context was the 'fairness' of Catalonia seceding, not what Catalonia could do to get Spain to recognise its independence.
Runes for good luck:
[1 - exp(i*2π)]^-1
Offer without either side losing face should be easy to make. Staying part of the kingdom as a seperate nation?
Last edited by Fragony; 10-06-2017 at 18:01.
We know what will happened. Happened before. Pretty villages burn nicely...
https://youtu.be/QqCmFRvO8fQ
https://youtu.be/2_dYaAtHwws
Last edited by Brenus; 10-06-2017 at 22:59.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.
"I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
"You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
"Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"
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