Trump Thread

[spmetla]

What I really don't get is how Trump can be the candidate of choice for christians. Not just in the US but also some here in Europe.
He's rich, arrogant, condescending, vain, proud of himself, bullies others and so on and that's not even considering the sex scandals they can explain away with fake news about them being democrat conspiracies with paid actors. Pretty much all of that is not how Jesus or the bible in general described a good christian. And yet, just because he mentions God once in a while, many christians think he is somehow the christian candidate. Then again I also don't get why christians need a gun to turn the other cheek, but...

Part of it is probably our harkening back to the Puritans who were too extreme for England. That same Puritan belief also held in it that wealth and success are a sign of God's approval and favor. He's successful therefore he must be godly and all the crassness must just be an act because God wouldn't reward him otherwise.

Largely it's probably because he says whatever he wants and they love what he says. He's openly racist, xenophobic, islamophobic, and the aggrieved poor whites lap it up. If you're too poor to look down on others then at least by being of a 'superior' religion or race you are therefore entitled to look down on everyone not like you.
They have the same sort of 'common sense' approach to government that don't understand that it's actually complicated and difficult business. Therefore when he blames the 'deep state' for everything he fails to do. Remeber this gem that essentially sums up all his difficulties in governing:

"Now, I have to tell you, it's an unbelievably complex subject," he [Trump] added. "Nobody knew health care could be so complicated."

https://www.cnn.com/2017/02/27/polit...ted/index.html

[Montmorency]

Hmm, at this point I wonder if Trump has now inspired unprecedented public enmity from former security/military high-rankers. How strong was the tradition of their deference to POTUS/CINC?

https://twitter.com/JohnBrennan/stat...78856997224448

When the full extent of your venality, moral turpitude, and political corruption becomes known, you will take your rightful place as a disgraced demagogue in the dustbin of history. You may scapegoat Andy McCabe, but you will not destroy America...America will triumph over you.

https://twitter.com/mccaffreyr3/stat...rc=twsrc%5Etfw

Reluctantly I have concluded that President Trump is a serious threat to US national security. He is refusing to protect vital US interests from active Russian attacks. It is apparent that he is for some unknown reason under the sway of Mr Putin.

[HopAlongBunny]

I think the Brennan quote (above) may go down as the summation of Trump's tenure.
While people in the Intelligence community and Military might defer to POTUS, I believe their oath demands loyalty to the Constitution.

The popcorn inducing question is also contained in that quote. Will America triumph?
Trump might be the least popular POTUS ever, but there is still a hardcore. The GOP seems willing to "ride this baby down" and get what they can, while they can.
Mid-terms? It could be very ugly indeed; voter restrictions, Russian manipulation, rigged voting hours/access ... etc.
It could turn out to be the fire that gets people to the polls, finally; will the polls be open?

[HopAlongBunny]

In a different vein: Is America handing the Middle East to Russia?
In the Pacific and in international forums, China is filling the vacuum that America is leaving.
Russia might be ready to do the same in the Middle East:

http://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/16/...ady-boyfriend/

It might just be an "infatuation", but just being around and attentive might be enough...

[Fragony]

As for the first, certainly seems that way, should you be unhappy about it it never did you any good

[Crandar]

Why should the average American care about how aggressive or soft American policy towards Russia is? Why should he care if a couple of dictators and totalitarian emirs in the Middle East prefer Russia to the US? Why should he care if Russian investments in Jordan or Ukraine become more prominent, to the detriment of the interests of the American companies? Why should he care if a president in a random country which he cannot even locate is a puppet of Putin, instead of Donald?

All this nationalistic narrative that citizens should be worried and make sacrifices for the sake of the American foreign policy and the need of some lobbyists to increase their profits is stupid. The tears of the warmongering military establishment are what encouraged many pacifists to abstain from the elections and what convinced many desperate workers that a billionaire is actually the voice of the people and the terror of the elites.
Do they still fail to realize that they should shut up. The voters who automatically get hysterical, when they hear some good old McCarthyist rhetoric will vote for the Republicans anyway, because they consider anybody to the left of Ted Cruz as a Commie ready to confiscate their weapons.

[Gilrandir]

Why should the average American care about how aggressive or soft American policy towards Russia is? Why should he care if a couple of dictators and totalitarian emirs in the Middle East prefer Russia to the US? Why should he care if Russian investments in Jordan or Ukraine become more prominent, to the detriment of the interests of the American companies? Why should he care if a president in a random country which he cannot even locate is a puppet of Putin, instead of Donald?

All this nationalistic narrative that citizens should be worried and make sacrifices for the sake of the American foreign policy and the need of some lobbyists to increase their profits is stupid. The tears of the warmongering military establishment are what encouraged many pacifists to abstain from the elections and what convinced many desperate workers that a billionaire is actually the voice of the people and the terror of the elites.
Do they still fail to realize that they should shut up. The voters who automatically get hysterical, when they hear some good old McCarthyist rhetoric will vote for the Republicans anyway, because they consider anybody to the left of Ted Cruz as a Commie ready to confiscate their weapons.

In a word, why die for Danzig.

[Crandar]

In a word, why die for Danzig.

Sorry bro, Putler memes don't work in the civilized world. Alternatively, why die for Ferdie?

[Gilrandir]

Sorry bro, Putler memes don't work in the civilized world. Alternatively, why die for Ferdie?

I thought it was a Hitler meme.

[Montmorency]

Why should the average American care about how aggressive or soft American policy towards Russia is? Why should he care if a couple of dictators and totalitarian emirs in the Middle East prefer Russia to the US? Why should he care if Russian investments in Jordan or Ukraine become more prominent, to the detriment of the interests of the American companies? Why should he care if a president in a random country which he cannot even locate is a puppet of Putin, instead of Donald?

All this nationalistic narrative that citizens should be worried and make sacrifices for the sake of the American foreign policy and the need of some lobbyists to increase their profits is stupid. The tears of the warmongering military establishment are what encouraged many pacifists to abstain from the elections and what convinced many desperate workers that a billionaire is actually the voice of the people and the terror of the elites.
Do they still fail to realize that they should shut up. The voters who automatically get hysterical, when they hear some good old McCarthyist rhetoric will vote for the Republicans anyway, because they consider anybody to the left of Ted Cruz as a Commie ready to confiscate their weapons.

The average American (or citizen of another country) arguably shouldn't need to care about any foreign policy, to function as citizens.

But I hear what you're saying. It's not good for people to identify their own success with the success of American military might or imperialism. But it's harder to deploy that argument when it comes to self-defense on the home front, and in Western Europe. We could withdraw completely from every single Muslim country and Russia would still be an adversary.

And Trump is an adversary of America. And it matters if former security/military leadership criticize him in this way, because in a circuitous syllogism it does undermine civilian leadership of the military, which model is likely better for most people on Earth than the alternative.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Speaking of which...

@Seamus Fermanagh

Here's the father of my current governor speechifying in the 80s about "Religious Belief and Public Morality: A Catholic Governor's Perspective".

I thought JFK's discussion at the Greater Houston Ministerial was pithier, though in much the same vein.

I often disagreed with Mario Cuomo. I never considered him an enemy. Among Demos of that era, I think he'd have made a better President than Carter, Mondale, or Ted Kennedy.

[spmetla]

In a different vein: Is America handing the Middle East to Russia?
In the Pacific and in international forums, China is filling the vacuum that America is leaving.
Russia might be ready to do the same in the Middle East:

http://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/16/...ady-boyfriend/

It might just be an "infatuation", but just being around and attentive might be enough...

America is certainly ceding its clout to the regional players, mainly Iran and Saudi-Arabia. Ceding it to Russia? I'd say not so much, they've always been friends of the current Syrian Regime. Iran is willing to work with Russia but there is no mutual trust between the two, more just the shared goals against the US in Iraq and Syria.
Turkey seeing the above trend between Iran and Saudi-Arabia is trying to create it's own sphere and be seen as a regional leader again, especially for the Mediterranean Muslim countries. This vie for influence on their part while a NATO power allows them to stick their tongue out much farther because we (the US) need them sorely. Without them we'd only have a footprint in the gulf and cyprus (if the UK were to allow it)short of committing the 6th Fleet to something.
So long as the US remains committed to Israel, Egypt, and Saudi-Arabia it will have a lot of clout in the region though the fickleness of our foreign policy has been brought to light and will undermine any and all treaties not made into law by Congress.
The Soviet Union was a major player in the middle east for a long long time which is why the region has so much Russian hardware around (Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Libya, Algeria, Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia). Russia can't project power quite like the US but they are far more willing to send advisers and equipment (not just crap outdated 'monkey' versions either) which is something the US and other Western arms suppliers are seen as unreliable with (France exocet missiles in Falklands, German Leopards used by the Turks).

China is definitely filling a vacuum but that is also pushing many potential/historical rivals toward each other (India, Australia, Vietnam, Thailand, South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan). The US needs to be the unifying force for these nations which sadly our shortsighted policies have failed at over the past two decades.
This is why personally I think that in the next few years China will persue a more confrontational policy and try to get into a Russo-Japanese type of limited conflict with the US to bloody our nose enough to cause us to withdraw from the region or at the least call our loyalty to our allies to be in doubt (say a war over the South China Sea atolls with the Philippines or Vietnam or cause us to sit on the sidelines while they bring in Taiwan).

[a completely inoffensive name]

I would say the TPP already shows that Oceania/east Asian countries are willing to work together without the US to protect their shared interests.

China has claims (or will eventually) against almost every country around it and I think Chinese hegemony in the face of US withdrawal is likely not to be as loose and rewarding as the status quo. Only complete abandonment

My question for those who talk about China usurping the US in the region is this: Are we so sure of China's ability to conduct itself as a superpower? During our brief reign of 'Pax Americana', the world has seen convincing examples that military might is not the end all be all to overcoming foreign policy issues. The longer China delays the more Taiwanese independence grows likely. Democracy is now a given for the younger Taiwanese coming of age over there and they are active and they have influenced recent elections (if only my own country's youth could do the same...). Culturally, they are exposed to more than what is allowed on the mainland and will continue to drift away from the mainland as cultural influences blend and take hold over time. These are issues that only prolonged, successful, and sophisticated soft power from the Chinese could reverse without bloodshed. I mean, if we are truly at a position where we 'sit on the sidelines' and abandon Taiwan to same fate as Hong Kong (won't be long until China completely converts it into a puppet government, suppressing all dissenting politicians from campaigning, let alone take office) then why bother keep the charade going. Fucking take away the 500 billion from the military and leave just enough to maintain enough nukes to destroy the planet and go back to being our own isolationist experiment.

[Hooahguy]

Its like hes a cartoon character or something.

President Trump congratulated his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin on his reelection victory despite his national security advisers warning him specifically not to do so, the Washington Post reported on Tuesday.

Trump’s national security team had told Trump not to congratulate Putin on winning a fourth term during a phone call on Tuesday, even placing a section in his briefing materials that read “DO NOT CONGRATULATE” in all-capital letters, according to the Post.


However, Trump did congratulate Putin during the call.

[Fragony]

Why shouldn't he congratulate Putin, that's normal. America only benefit from having better relations with the Kremlin. Wouldn't 'Trump refuses to congratulate Putin' look a whole lot worse, unnecesary provocation MSM would scream, making it bigger than it needs to be. If you can't do any good anyway do what's smart

[rory_20_uk]

If you pretend to follow the Rule of Law, then not slapping dictators on the back is generally a good idea. The USA purports to to this, the President appears to do quite the opposite.

When the President fails to uphold the values of the country they should be removed. But of course the country is too sick for this to happen.

[Husar]

As silly as this appeared at first, Fragony has a point:



Things like this are more or less on the same level:
https://aledeh.com/vladimir-putin-co...ng-presidency/

In a telephone conversation, German Chancellor Angela Merkel congratulated Xi Jinping on being elected Chinese president.

http://tass.com/world/995095

German Chancellor Angela Merkel has congratulated Russian President Vladimir Putin on his victory at Sunday’s presidential polls and expressed the hope for further constructive cooperation, the press service of the German cabinet of ministers said on Monday.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/netany...ian-elections/

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu congratulated newly re-elected Russian President Vladimir Putin on Monday, hailing the two leaders’ “trust and understanding,” but refraining from criticizing the election process, as many in Europe have done.

“Mr. President, please accept my sincere congratulations for your victory in yesterday’s elections,” Netanyahu wrote in a letter sent to Putin, his office said.

More info here as well: http://www.en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/57091

Japan and Italy are listed as well for example.

And Duterte: http://bworldonline.com/duterte-cong...on-reelection/

Aaaaand Macron: http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/201..._137050771.htm

PARIS, March 19 (Xinhua) -- French President Emmanuel Macron on Monday wished Russian President-elect Vladimir Putin success in modernizing Russia, noting that it is essential to maintain ties and "constructive dialogue" with Russia despite differences.

"In the name of France, the French president offered Russia and the Russian people his wishes for success with the modernization of the country on the political, democratic, economic and social fronts," Macron's office said in a statement.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

As silly as this appeared at first, Fragony has a point:



Things like this are more or less on the same level:
https://aledeh.com/vladimir-putin-co...ng-presidency/



http://tass.com/world/995095



https://www.timesofisrael.com/netany...ian-elections/



More info here as well: http://www.en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/57091

Japan and Italy are listed as well for example.

And Duterte: http://bworldonline.com/duterte-cong...on-reelection/

Aaaaand Macron: http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/201..._137050771.htm

Husar, you need to stop trying to use your intelligence here. The basic mantra is: Trump is evil and can do no right. If you start your thinking from this 'given,' inconsistencies like other world leaders acting in like manner can be blithely ignored. If you keep using your wits, you will NEVER make it as a US mainstream media journalist.

[Sarmatian]

Well, people who make a big deal out of this are actually helping Trump in the long run.

[Husar]

Husar, you need to stop trying to use your intelligence here. The basic mantra is: Trump is evil and can do no right. If you start your thinking from this 'given,' inconsistencies like other world leaders acting in like manner can be blithely ignored. If you keep using your wits, you will NEVER make it as a US mainstream media journalist.

Well, even though his behavior is not entirely unusual, one could say it is weird that he ignored the very strong advice from his advisors. After all he keeps saying that he knows the best people and has the best advisors, and then he constantly ignores them...
That's kinda like saying you need that AR-15 to oppose the government, but then you never start that civil war 4 realzies.

[rory_20_uk]

Well, even though his behavior is not entirely unusual, one could say it is weird that he ignored the very strong advice from his advisors. After all he keeps saying that he knows the best people and has the best advisors, and then he constantly ignores them...
That's kinda like saying you need that AR-15 to oppose the government, but then you never start that civil war 4 realzies.

To point out the obvious, he is a narcissist. He wants the best people around him to make him look good - not to say or do anything. They are his trophies as much as his wife is and as much as being President is.

So, for him to be publicly told to do something he almost has to do the opposite lest he appears "weak" and not the centre of the story.

Yes, it is only something a very ignorant, weak person would do - but equally someone with these traits lacks the insight into themselves to realise this.

[HopAlongBunny]

Is Cambridge Analytica's hook-up with Facebook going to push Facebook to 'fes up to the fact they are a data mining network, not a social network?

[Montmorency]

Is Cambridge Analytica's hook-up with Facebook going to push Facebook to 'fes up to the fact they are a data mining network, not a social network?

Facebook

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Hooahguy]

Well, even though his behavior is not entirely unusual, one could say it is weird that he ignored the very strong advice from his advisors. After all he keeps saying that he knows the best people and has the best advisors, and then he constantly ignores them...
That's kinda like saying you need that AR-15 to oppose the government, but then you never start that civil war 4 realzies.

Exactly. Personally, I dont mind so much that he congratulated Putin. Its the hilarity of his advisors telling him explicitly not to and then him doing it anyways which greatly amuses me.

[HopAlongBunny]

Exactly. Personally, I dont mind so much that he congratulated Putin. Its the hilarity of his advisors telling him explicitly not to and then him doing it anyways which greatly amuses me.

I think rory 20 uk said it all:

They are his trophies as much as his wife is and as much as being President is.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Exactly. Personally, I dont mind so much that he congratulated Putin. Its the hilarity of his advisors telling him explicitly not to and then him doing it anyways which greatly amuses me.

He wants Putin across the table, mano-a-mano, where he knows he can negotiate effectively with anyone.

[Fragony]

Exactly. Personally, I dont mind so much that he congratulated Putin. Its the hilarity of his advisors telling him explicitly not to and then him doing it anyways which greatly amuses me.

Do you always listen to people who give you advice?

[Gilrandir]

Do you always listen to people who give you advice?

If you personally choose them and hire them you are supposed to. Otherwise why did you hire them?

[Fragony]

If you personally choose them and hire them you are supposed to. Otherwise why did you hire them?

To advice you. And they gave poor advice. Not congratulating Putin is simply not recognising his government, very bad advice, Trump did the right thing doing it

[rory_20_uk]

Talking to him is recognising his government. Not congratulating him is implicitly demonstrating that the elections were dodgy.

You see, diplomacy often is dealing with subtlety and conveying meaning in different ways with different audiences. This is why often experienced, subtle individuals are chosen for this, not brash morons with cognitive decline.