Trump Thread

[Kralizec]

Granted, this is a rather mundane and harmless example.

Most politicians will tell a lie or bend the truth every now and then. Trump does it a lot more than average, in a much more obvious manner and shows no embarassment when confronted with the truth.

I have no idea why I'm telling you this.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Granted, this is a rather mundane and harmless example.

Most politicians will tell a lie or bend the truth every now and then. Trump does it a lot more than average, in a much more obvious manner and shows no embarassment when confronted with the truth.

I have no idea why I'm telling you this.

I do not know if his "spinning" efforts are more frequent than others in his line of work. I must agree that he is about as subtle as a bull in a Venetian glass gallery.

[HopAlongBunny]

I think one lady summed up the best advice for both R's and D's
"Nominate people we can vote for"

[Husar]

A recurrent problem. Mostly it is a person who has "always" gone to the polls there whose polling place has been changed and since they only vote infrequently they didn't pay attention. Sometimes, people are taken off the list for various reasons, and sometimes those taken off are done so by party officials who are trying to suppress some perceived voter group.

Our system is not perfect. But at least most states are preserving your right not to have a voter card or need to present ID to vote.

My government send me a card or letter that I take to the polling station. Usually no ID is required but I have one on me anyway. The card or letter contains both the information about where I have to vote and how to ask for a ballot that I can mail in.

It is really not a complicated thing, but somehow the USA always seem to make it far more complicated than that.

[CrossLOPER]

My government send me a card or letter that I take to the polling station. Usually no ID is required but I have one on me anyway. The card or letter contains both the information about where I have to vote and how to ask for a ballot that I can mail in.

It is really not a complicated thing, but somehow the USA always seem to make it far more complicated than that.

You're not free enough to understand.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

My government send me a card or letter that I take to the polling station. Usually no ID is required but I have one on me anyway. The card or letter contains both the information about where I have to vote and how to ask for a ballot that I can mail in.

It is really not a complicated thing, but somehow the USA always seem to make it far more complicated than that.

We were a country that required you to go to your courthouse to register to vote and turned out 40% or more of the electorate on a rainy polling day in November to exercise the franchise for an "off year" election.

We now have voting months labeled "early voting," voter registration at the department of motor vehicles or even online, judges holding polling places open 2-3 hours after their official closing time on election day itself, and an endless litany of "They're trying to suppress our vote" diatribes.

Galling.

[Montmorency]

We were a country that required you to go to your courthouse to register to vote and turned out 40% or more of the electorate on a rainy polling day in November to exercise the franchise for an "off year" election.

We now have voting months labeled "early voting," voter registration at the department of motor vehicles or even online, judges holding polling places open 2-3 hours after their official closing time on election day itself, and an endless litany of "They're trying to suppress our vote" diatribes.

Galling.

Who was the electorate?

[Pannonian]

Who was the electorate?

Americans presumably.

[Husar]

We were a country that required you to go to your courthouse to register to vote and turned out 40% or more of the electorate on a rainy polling day in November to exercise the franchise for an "off year" election.

We now have voting months labeled "early voting," voter registration at the department of motor vehicles or even online, judges holding polling places open 2-3 hours after their official closing time on election day itself, and an endless litany of "They're trying to suppress our vote" diatribes.

Galling.

Well, this may be the case in some states, it only takes a cursory look at Wikipedia to see how they do not apply in others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_...of_DMV_offices

I didn't read the entire article, but I remember from somewhere that the registration places in some states or counties are open only 1 or 2 times a month during the time most peopple are at work and so on. Additionally they have few of them so people can't just hop over during lunch break because they have to wait in line and so on.

Your dismissal might be a bit over the top and no "making it easier" beats automatic registration anyway.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Voting should be mandatory. There is no such thing as refusing to participate. Politics is life in a democratic society. Refusing to vote is the same as voting for the winner. Blah, blah, blah but I believe it.

[Montmorency]

Voting should be mandatory. There is no such thing as refusing to participate. Politics is life in a democratic society. Refusing to vote is the same as voting for the winner. Blah, blah, blah but I believe it.

Maybe, but you shouldn't lionize voting per se. It's just one more tool.

Civic participation in general is the key thing. Otherwise, whoever manages to vote in the highest number of local, state, and federal elections for which they are eligible would be considered a paragon. Yet, by voting and then getting back to private affairs one probably would tend to accomplish less than someone who is an activist in their community and country yet never votes.

Three rules for voting:

1. Track how close the race is.
2. Evaluate the importance of the position in the context of the issues that matter.
3. If you're expecting to write in a symbolic vote, just stay away.

[spmetla]

Voting should be mandatory but there should also be mandatory options of "abstain" "none of the above" "vote against candidate XXX" for each individual contest and ballot issue that way someone can participate without having to blindly casting votes. It's always horrified me when some of my friends have voted and they only know about the top tier candidates (President, Governor, Senators) but haven't got a clue about any of the many other lower positions or ballot issues and as such having to vote by either selecting party or whether the name "sounds good."

[Montmorency]

Voting should be mandatory but there should also be mandatory options of "abstain" "none of the above" "vote against candidate XXX" for each individual contest and ballot issue that way someone can participate without having to blindly casting votes. It's always horrified me when some of my friends have voted and they only know about the top tier candidates (President, Governor, Senators) but haven't got a clue about any of the many other lower positions or ballot issues and as such having to vote by either selecting party or whether the name "sounds good."

Ranked voting is always nice.

[spmetla]

That'd be nice too

[Husar]

It's always horrified me when some of my friends have voted and they only know about the top tier candidates (President, Governor, Senators) but haven't got a clue about any of the many other lower positions or ballot issues and as such having to vote by either selecting party or whether the name "sounds good."

Me too, usually when I'm the one voting though. I tend to have no or little idea about the individual ideas of local MPs and when I tried to find some of them online, the local parties barely seemed to have a web presence. Driving to their office or whatever to talk to them is not something that time allows.

This might also explain why I'm not the biggest fan of all too localized politics, as it tends to make keeping track of politics on 3 or 4 levels a rather time-consuming task.

Then again I'm not even aware of anything I'd want changed locally but quite a few things I'd want changed (inter-)nationally.
Plus where I live right now, most people have appear to have preferences very much unlike my own, so I tend to vote for a party that gets nowhere anyway.

It's an interesting issue though and I won't claim I'm handling it perfectly.

[HopAlongBunny]

A nice overview of Trumpisms election, arc and consequences.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opi...074012028.html

America will survive Trump, but what will it look like afterward?
Will America have to refight the battles that gave effective regulation, labor standards, environmental protection...etc?
Still need to see whether Trump's America embraces competition or the move to ever greater monopoly

[Seamus Fermanagh]

A nice overview of Trumpisms election, arc and consequences.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opi...074012028.html

America will survive Trump, but what will it look like afterward?
Will America have to refight the battles that gave effective regulation, labor standards, environmental protection...etc?
Still need to see whether Trump's America embraces competition or the move to ever greater monopoly

We go through a alternating process of adding and reducing regulations. The general trend is "more" over time. This is simply a prune back period as with Regan.

[Gilrandir]

This might also explain why I'm not the biggest fan of all too localized politics, as it tends to make keeping track of politics on 3 or 4 levels a rather time-consuming task.

IMO there shouldn't be localized politics altogether. Local authorities should deal with the local roads, schools, hospitals etc. When they try to drag politics into what street should be repaired first and the representative of what party should run all parks of the city - streets and parks stay neglected waiting for the authorities to finish their brawl.

[Hooahguy]

Rumor is Trump will fire Mueller in the coming week or so.

Rep. Jackie Speier (D-Calif.) said Friday that "rumors" on Capitol Hill suggest President Trump could fire special counsel Robert Mueller before Christmas, after Congress leaves Washington for the winter recess.

“The rumor on the Hill when I left yesterday was that the president was going to make a significant speech at the end of next week. And on Dec. 22, when we are out of D.C., he was going to fire Robert Mueller," Speier told California's KQED News.

Speier, a member of the House Intelligence Committee, said that Trump was trying to shut down the committee's investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election, pointing to the lack of interviews scheduled for the new year.

If the rumor is true, I would expect a furor from the left about obstruction of justice on the part of Trump. Republicans will probably make excuses for it, or feign outrage and then do nothing. There are massive protests already being planned though by activists. I would expect a full blown crisis from this event, should it occur.

[HopAlongBunny]

De-legitimizing the present is necessary to set the future.
The rule of law; its already a tiered system, why not make it official?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Er....this rumor is trying to make Trump sound like Nixon up to and including a rumored Archibald Cox parallel....this isn't even very original as a rumor concept.

[Hooahguy]

Er....this rumor is trying to make Trump sound like Nixon up to and including a rumored Archibald Cox parallel....this isn't even very original as a rumor concept.

Well considering how the Nixon thing went down, can you blame Democrats for drawing parallels? Another Saturday Night Massacre would be a field day for opponents of the administration, and force the hand of the GOP to either recognize the obstruction of justice or ignore it and put more fuel on the fire for the 2018 and 2020 elections. After the results of the special election in Alabama, things are trending blue and most people know it.

[HopAlongBunny]

Rumor or "trial balloon?"
It's not unusual to release a possibly controversial idea as a rumor just to see what reaction it gets.
Is that the case in this instance? No idea.
Fact is though, some commentators are looking at the consequences if the rumor were to become reality.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/12/11/...tional-crisis/

That it has to be considered is mind boggling; no this not Chile, Nicaragua, Egypt or Syria we are talking about, this is the U.S.

Taking a different tack:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/1...094237525.html

I think this is well on the way to: just throw as much crap as you can at the wall, run with anything that sticks.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Well considering how the Nixon thing went down, can you blame Democrats for drawing parallels? Another Saturday Night Massacre would be a field day for opponents of the administration, and force the hand of the GOP to either recognize the obstruction of justice or ignore it and put more fuel on the fire for the 2018 and 2020 elections. After the results of the special election in Alabama, things are trending blue and most people know it.

H'guy:

My avidly left-wing family and friends (I have a fair number of such, after all I work in academe) would very much want to see/hope to see/expect to see just that from Trump. This is because they have already judged him as guilty since they cannot accept that enough of the American people in the right combination of states would actually vote for this asshat.

This kind of rumor reflects their pre-judgement more than it does any known fact or evidentiary train leading to the Oval. They want the parallel to be true and they're salivating at the thought. They want this 'conspiracy' to be true with the fervor of a Rosswell X-files tinfoil hatter.



I myself fall back on Hanlon's Razor and find it a powerful tool in explaining the Trump administration's efforts.


And the Dems truly have no one to blame but themselves. They managed to run a woman who is arguably the ONLY candidate who turned voters across the political spectrum off enough so as to allow Trump's coalition of the disgruntled to eke out an EC win.

[Montmorency]

H'guy:

My avidly left-wing family and friends (I have a fair number of such, after all I work in academe) would very much want to see/hope to see/expect to see just that from Trump. This is because they have already judged him as guilty since they cannot accept that enough of the American people in the right combination of states would actually vote for this asshat.

This kind of rumor reflects their pre-judgement more than it does any known fact or evidentiary train leading to the Oval. They want the parallel to be true and they're salivating at the thought. They want this 'conspiracy' to be true with the fervor of a Rosswell X-files tinfoil hatter.



I myself fall back on Hanlon's Razor and find it a powerful tool in explaining the Trump administration's efforts.


And the Dems truly have no one to blame but themselves. They managed to run a woman who is arguably the ONLY candidate who turned voters across the political spectrum off enough so as to allow Trump's coalition of the disgruntled to eke out an EC win.

The only people to blame are the Trump voters. It's as simple as that.

Fox News:

There is a cleansing needed in the FBI and the Department of Justice. It needs to be cleansed of individuals who should not just be fired, but who need to be taken out in handcuffs.

Do these unconscionable miscreants realize what they're doing? In the normal course of history their shenanigans would be liable to get them lined up against a wall - at best.

[Hooahguy]

H'guy:

My avidly left-wing family and friends (I have a fair number of such, after all I work in academe) would very much want to see/hope to see/expect to see just that from Trump. This is because they have already judged him as guilty since they cannot accept that enough of the American people in the right combination of states would actually vote for this asshat.

This kind of rumor reflects their pre-judgement more than it does any known fact or evidentiary train leading to the Oval. They want the parallel to be true and they're salivating at the thought. They want this 'conspiracy' to be true with the fervor of a Rosswell X-files tinfoil hatter.

Couldnt you say the exact same thing about Republicans about Clinton with Benghazi and the emails and whatnot? Chanting "lock her up" isnt reflecting pre-judgement?

[Montmorency]

Couldnt you say the exact same thing about Republicans about Clinton with Benghazi and the emails and whatnot?

Don't fall into the whataboutist cliche, it muddles what's going on around us.

Either there are crimes, or there are not. Either the Republican Party is a legitimate political organization, or it is a criminal front. Either we are a Republic, or a petty despotism.

[Hooahguy]

Don't fall into the whataboutist cliche, it muddles what's going on around us.

Either there are crimes, or there are not. Either the Republican Party is a legitimate political organization, or it is a criminal front. Either we are a Republic, or a petty despotism.

Well thats a generalization if I have ever heard one, there is a grey area between.

My point is that its a valid tactic to get people into the voting booths. During the Obama years, whipping the base up into a frenzy worked for the GOP to take back the House, and then the Senate. Now look at the Democratic base now. This type of mobilization was not really seen for a non-presidential election race prior to 2016 and so far its working pretty well for Democrats (like in Alabama). Now analysts say that taking back the Senate is actually within reach for Democrats, assuming this furor holds up.

[Montmorency]

Well thats a generalization if I have ever heard one, there is a grey area between.

My point is that its a valid tactic to get people into the voting booths. During the Obama years, whipping the base up into a frenzy worked for the GOP to take back the House, and then the Senate. Now look at the Democratic base now. This type of mobilization was not really seen for a non-presidential election race prior to 2016 and so far its working pretty well for Democrats (like in Alabama). Now analysts say that taking back the Senate is actually within reach for Democrats, assuming this furor holds up.

I don't think there is a gray area. Or, the Democratic Party constitutes the gray area.

You speak as if it's a worthy goal or great achievement in itself to mobilize voters to vote Democratic, just to get those numbers on paper. But you can't lose sight of the aim here, which is to halt the harms of the current government and to clarify just how deep the water we've gotten into is.

This is much more serious than mere partisan politics. As Max Boot says, I hope "every single Republican running for election next November loses".

[Hooahguy]

Of course its serious. I would love it if people were driven to the voting booths by rational policy debates and whatnot. But we as a country are so far past that point that the whole "when they go low, we go high" thing doesnt really seem to work anymore. So I see it as a deal with the devil. Use the same tactics the GOP used during the Obama years to get the Dems back in power. And then when the Trump years are over, try to get the civility back. Of course that is a big if. I honestly dont see this ever happening as both sides realize how profitable this sort of perpetual outrage is. After all, a Fox News host just suggested that Mueller is orchestrating a coup. Its only going to get worse, and we can only hope it will get better.