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Thread: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

  1. #91
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    So, what would be the appropriate response?
    Off the top of my head:

    Minimum:
    Complete moratorioum on international funding for islamic religious institutions. A mosque should be sustained by their congregation, not by the funding of a foreign power.
    Regular investigations into every mosque and islamic college in Britain for radicalization.
    Ensure those convicted of spreading islamic radicalization serve their sentances in solitary confinement, with offer of exile as an alternative sentance.
    Investigation of anyone who visited the middle east outside of official capacity in the last 17 years.
    Increase legal punishment for rotheram-esque inaction by law enforcement.
    Harsh legal consequences for false reports of racial or religious discrimination on the part of law enforcement.

    Best result:
    Provde incetives for the disbanding of islamic ghettos and regulatons against further high density islamic hot spots forming.
    Police baiting of Islamic ghettos, any who are easily provoked into harassing or attacking a non muslim undercover cop wandering into thier turf should find themeselves quickly disuaded as they end up spending a few nights in the slammer.

    Personal suggestion:
    Extend an offer to fund voluntary self exile for muslim citizens. Give them say 5 grand and a plane ticket to saudi arabia or quatar, record thier fingerprints, irises, DNA etc on the way out and not allow them to ever return to the country unless they repay the cost and burn a quran or something equally anathema.
    Ensure Islamic terrorists are publically buried in sewn up pig skins, the stupider elements of islam might think it would ruin thier chances of going to heaven and be disuaded.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 03-25-2017 at 20:23.
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  2. #92
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Which I didnt

    Have you lost the ability to tell me and PVC apart?

    Did you ever have it to begin with?
    And who advocated inaction in this thread?

    At least you followed Sarmatian's question with some content.

    It's way too much police state (lots of stick, little to no carrot) for me and leaves some questions.
    Like where does the punishment for false reports come from?
    What would the incentives for disbanding ghettos look like?
    How is an Islamic ghetto defined?
    And how do you think this would affect relations and radicalization in gerneral to basically turn all muslims into second class citizens? Is it true to democratic values?
    Last edited by Husar; 03-25-2017 at 20:54.


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  3. #93
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    And who advocated inaction in this thread?
    Montomorency who calls frustration at inaction as "quasi fascistic".
    Idaho who who calls getting tougher; "futile and brainless."

    Both provide no alternatives; only snubbing all courses of action laid before them.
    At least you followed Sarmatian's question with some content.
    Amazing what a question free of malice can get you.
    It's way too much police state (lots of stick, little to no carrot)
    There are few carrots that can outweigh concerns of retaliation from neighbours, especially from a group that is prone going to extremes to enact such retaliations over matters of mere honor or apostacy.
    Like where does the punishment for false reports come from?
    Fines and light jail time. Accusations of racism has too often been used as a weapon to shield wrongdoing and to throw accusations without regard to accuracy must carry consequences, but the consequences must not be so harsh as to dissuade legitimate reporting.
    What would the incentives for disbanding ghettos look like?
    Subsidising the moving of residence out of the ghetto.
    How is an Islamic ghetto defined?
    Good question, start with everywhere a sharia court and/or sharia police operates and go from there.
    And how do you think this would affect relations and radicalization in gerneral to basically turn all muslims into second class citizens?
    It is not much of a concern to me, if anything we have been treating them like a privledged class; no other community have been allowed to implement thier own courts, nor had criticism decried with such rigor, yet their members keep lashing out with unparalleled violence.
    Addressing such concerns of the islamic community have been a primary objective of the governments of the last 16 years and they have failed to improve relations, prevent radicalization nor stop the type of violence we saw wednesday from being a popular choice for the disgruntled. It is futile to keep handling muslim communities with greater care for feelings than we do any other community that breaks the peace with similar regularity.
    Is it true to democratic values?
    I have no idea what you consider democratic values. They can still vote, cant they?
    Last edited by Greyblades; 03-26-2017 at 01:29.
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  4. #94
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Quick Shot Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Crazy Cars Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Slack Man Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, White Van Man Champion, What-A-Shot Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Montomorency who calls frustration at inaction as "quasi fascistic".
    Idaho who who calls getting tougher; "futile and brainless."

    Both provide no alternatives; only snubbing all courses of action laid before them.
    Because, in their assessment, no robust action will address the problem. They want the individual episodes handled as the crimes they are, but no policies which attempt to take a more aggressive response because they believe that response will encourage racism/xenophobia, consume excessive treasure that could be better spent on other problems, provide more excuses for the borderline fanatics to become radicalized than they already have, and probably not do anything meaningful to curtail such attacks.

    Essentially, you should accept such crimes as the very rare "cost of doing business" attendant upon pursuing life under the rules of Western culture. While galling, such attacks are vanishingly rare. After all, far more people are killed by hit-and-run car accidents in any given 10 year period than are killed by acts of terrorism, to speak nothing of medical conditions that are preventable/treatable. Why should billions in specie be spent to halt something that is, threat-wise, nearly as unlikely as being struck dead by lightning? Aren't efforts at robotic traffic management, improved medical therapies, and education/regulation to curtail obesity and tobacco use going to generate far more value to your polity than the robust efforts to counter terror attacks?

    And that's setting aside the whole issue regarding individual liberty and privacy curtailments....
    "Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." -- A. de Tocqueville

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  5. #95
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Montomorency who calls frustration at inaction as "quasi fascistic".
    Nah. Try again.
    Vitiate Man.

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  6. #96
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Off the top of my head:

    Minimum:
    Complete moratorioum on international funding for islamic religious institutions. A mosque should be sustained by their congregation, not by the funding of a foreign power.
    Regular investigations into every mosque and islamic college in Britain for radicalization.
    Ensure those convicted of spreading islamic radicalization serve their sentances in solitary confinement, with offer of exile as an alternative sentance.
    Investigation of anyone who visited the middle east outside of official capacity in the last 17 years.
    Increase legal punishment for rotheram-esque inaction by law enforcement.
    Harsh legal consequences for false reports of racial or religious discrimination on the part of law enforcement.

    Best result:
    Provde incetives for the disbanding of islamic ghettos and regulatons against further high density islamic hot spots forming.
    Police baiting of Islamic ghettos, any who are easily provoked into harassing or attacking a non muslim undercover cop wandering into thier turf should find themeselves quickly disuaded as they end up spending a few nights in the slammer.

    Personal suggestion:
    Extend an offer to fund voluntary self exile for muslim citizens. Give them say 5 grand and a plane ticket to saudi arabia or quatar, record thier fingerprints, irises, DNA etc on the way out and not allow them to ever return to the country unless they repay the cost and burn a quran or something equally anathema.
    Ensure Islamic terrorists are publically buried in sewn up pig skins, the stupider elements of islam might think it would ruin thier chances of going to heaven and be disuaded.
    Why are you so scared?
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  7. #97
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Just watching an ad with Abu Muntasir, a former Jihadi, asking young Muslim men not to fight IS.

    Yes - he's still a devout Muslim.

    Those who say I want to manufacture a war to "heal the national consciousness" confuse a desire for a standup fight with a wish to create one.

    When Pannanion and Greyblades are both essentially saying we should eject all Muslims you have to allow that by not fighting a war is just a path to defeat.

    Do I want to go fix all the problem in the ME? No, but I would not be averse to deploying 50,000 men into Syria and scouring out IS whilst there's still something left of Palmaya.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  8. #98
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Eject all outright? No, But I am tired of waiting for reform. If British muslims as a group do not moderate thier own's behavior then they must have the law enforced without timidity.

    Leaving them to thier own devices just makes the lives of everyone else worse, native or immigrant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Because, in their assessment, no robust action will address the problem. They want the individual episodes handled as the crimes they are, but no policies which attempt to take a more aggressive response because they believe that response will encourage racism/xenophobia, consume excessive treasure that could be better spent on other problems, provide more excuses for the borderline fanatics to become radicalized than they already have, and probably not do anything meaningful to curtail such attacks.
    Any response may incite racism/xenophobia in the minority but a lack of response most certainly incites it in the majority. A lack of response consumes in lives a price more precious than the treasure we spend on prevention and provides encouragement for the borderline fanatics to radicalize due to lack of consequence.

    The folly of further action you claim is spotted with maybes, but the doom of inaction is a certainty, brought closer with every madman that slips through our nation's tattered net.

    Essentially, you should accept such crimes as the very rare "cost of doing business" attendant upon pursuing life under the rules of Western culture.While galling, such attacks are vanishingly rare. After all, far more people are killed by hit-and-run car accidents in any given 10 year period than are killed by acts of terrorism, to speak nothing of medical conditions that are preventable/treatable. Why should billions in specie be spent to halt something that is, threat-wise, nearly as unlikely as being struck dead by lightning? Aren't efforts at robotic traffic management, improved medical therapies, and education/regulation to curtail obesity and tobacco use going to generate far more value to your polity than the robust efforts to counter terror attacks?
    Terrorism is not the cost of doing business under the rules of Western culture it is the cost of pretending imported barbarism can be shed on it's own.

    I care not for the numerical proportion of death terrorism causes compared to accidents; the very idea that an attack on the tribe by self declared outsiders should holds as little weight as an accident reeks of the insanity of ideolgues.

    The death of a man's the soul is to drown itself in such sociopathic apathy.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 03-26-2017 at 03:54.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Don't be scared that you don't freak out. Be scared when you don't care about freaking out
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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  9. #99
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Just watching an ad with Abu Muntasir, a former Jihadi, asking young Muslim men not to fight IS.

    Yes - he's still a devout Muslim.

    Those who say I want to manufacture a war to "heal the national consciousness" confuse a desire for a standup fight with a wish to create one.

    When Pannanion and Greyblades are both essentially saying we should eject all Muslims you have to allow that by not fighting a war is just a path to defeat.

    Do I want to go fix all the problem in the ME? No, but I would not be averse to deploying 50,000 men into Syria and scouring out IS whilst there's still something left of Palmaya.
    Neither am I, but from - as I mentioned in another thread - the angle of asserting an international mandate to pacify the area and manage displaced populations while checking multiple regional powers in their ambitions, rather than because I see it as a step in challenging radical Islam or refreshing national spirit. If these are a possible result, that's all well and good. They just can't be an expectation or motivation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Eject all outright? No, But I am tired of waiting for reform. If British muslims as a group do not moderate thier own's behavior then they must have the law enforced without timidity.

    Leaving them to thier own devices just makes the lives of everyone else worse, native or immigrant.
    An issue is that they aren't being left to their own devices, but past attempts are and have been too antagonistic and top-down. Government policy should enable the community to police itself rather than polarizing it for the sake of informant scraps. And even so, you will notice that most leads on terrorism cases come from concerned Muslims dissuading or informing on radicalized individuals in their networks.

    A lack of response consumes in lives a price more precious than the treasure we spend on prevention
    An ironic thought in this day and age.

    The folly of further action you claim is spotted with maybes, but the doom of inaction is a certainty
    What's that? Right-wing fanaticism? Maybe we should focus on repressing that. As the proverb goes, better a dog in the backyard than a bear in the kitchen.

    the very idea that an attack on the tribe by self declared outsiders should holds as little weight as an accident reeks of the insanity of ideolgues.
    How's that?
    Vitiate Man.

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  10. #100
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Off the top of my head:


    Complete moratorioum on international funding for islamic religious institutions. A mosque should be sustained by their congregation, not by the funding of a foreign power.
    Islamic religious institutions are generally most vocal opponents of terrorism. Making sure they have less means to get their voice heard is not a smart idea.

    Regular investigations into every mosque and islamic college in Britain for radicalization.
    This is pretty much what's been going on after 9/11.

    Ensure those convicted of spreading islamic radicalization serve their sentances in solitary confinement, with offer of exile as an alternative sentance.
    Those feeling disenfranchised by the society are indeed easier to incite to violence against the society so it might have some effect, would be hard to say how much. Even with that though, it would be impossible to make sure that the message doesn't come some other way.

    Exile is problematic because you need A) to find a country willing to accept them (terrorists are not very popular in Muslim countries) and B) even when you do, you may just provide them with a lot more people to spread their message to, the thing you're trying to avoid.

    Investigation of anyone who visited the middle east outside of official capacity in the last 17 years.
    Pretty much what's been happening. It's not a coincidence that police can tell you what a particular terrorist has been doing for the last 10 years, half an hour after he's been identified.

    Increase legal punishment for rotheram-esque inaction by law enforcement.
    ?

    Harsh legal consequences for false reports of racial or religious discrimination on the part of law enforcement.
    You'd have to seriously change the legal system for this to work. At this day and age, it's not up to reporter of a potential crime to decide whether it is an actual crime. Courts do that. That's pretty much their only purpose.

    Best result:
    Provde incetives for the disbanding of islamic ghettos and regulatons against further high density islamic hot spots forming.
    That usually means investing money in them which conservatives oppose. The second part practically means no freedom of movement for citizens because of their faith, which, besides being morally questionable works also to disenfranchise to affected even further. As a plus, it is very hard to enforce.

    Police baiting of Islamic ghettos, any who are easily provoked into harassing or attacking a non muslim undercover cop wandering into thier turf should find themeselves quickly disuaded as they end up spending a few nights in the slammer.
    Baiting people into committing violence is never a good solution, but even if we put that aside, that's a great way to make sure those prone to violence get together with their like minded friends for a few nights in the slammer and start talking. Not enough solitary confinement areas for each.

    The underlying idea of stronger police oversight of such areas is not bad, though, but that's pretty much being done already and most western countries already have harsher punishments for attacks on law enforcement officers.

    Extend an offer to fund voluntary self exile for muslim citizens. Give them say 5 grand and a plane ticket to saudi arabia or quatar, record thier fingerprints, irises, DNA etc on the way out and not allow them to ever return to the country unless they repay the cost and burn a quran or something equally anathema.
    You're demanding them to renounce their faith and at the same time insult every other member of their faith?

    Ensure Islamic terrorists are publically buried in sewn up pig skins, the stupider elements of islam might think it would ruin thier chances of going to heaven and be disuaded.
    The "stupider" elements will listen to those who incite them to violence. The "smarter" elements would be aware that it doesn't matter. You'd be desecrating the dead for no good reason and invoke a totally justified backlash from pretty much the entire world.

    Up until this last point I may have been persuaded that you've actually given some thought to this in an attempt to provide an actual solution, but this is pathetic.

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  11. #101
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    "Ensure Islamic terrorists are publically buried in sewn up pig skins, the stupider elements of islam might think it would ruin their chances of going to heaven and be dissuaded." Just for reference: In order to access to Heaven, in the Muslim Faith, you are supposed to arrive complete (reason why Muslim Warriors used to cut a part of a enemy body. I was witness of this in Bosnia, by the way). So, blowing yourself-up is de facto a ban to go in Heaven (in case of bits missing). Didn't stop one of them to do so.
    The problem is studies (can link one if your read French) shows that the "foot-criminals" of this faith have NOT A CLUE of Islam and Quran. They are lead by ones who have, so they are not Uleman nor Doctors of the Faith. The ones in France would be completely unable to READ the Quran, to understand it or comment it.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

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  12. #102
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Islamic religious institutions are generally most vocal opponents of terrorism. Making sure they have less means to get their voice heard is not a smart idea.

    This is pretty much what's been going on after 9/11.

    Those feeling disenfranchised by the society are indeed easier to incite to violence against the society so it might have some effect, would be hard to say how much. Even with that though, it would be impossible to make sure that the message doesn't come some other way.

    Exile is problematic because you need A) to find a country willing to accept them (terrorists are not very popular in Muslim countries) and B) even when you do, you may just provide them with a lot more people to spread their message to, the thing you're trying to avoid.

    Pretty much what's been happening. It's not a coincidence that police can tell you what a particular terrorist has been doing for the last 10 years, half an hour after he's been identified.

    ?

    You'd have to seriously change the legal system for this to work. At this day and age, it's not up to reporter of a potential crime to decide whether it is an actual crime. Courts do that. That's pretty much their only purpose.

    That usually means investing money in them which conservatives oppose. The second part practically means no freedom of movement for citizens because of their faith, which, besides being morally questionable works also to disenfranchise to affected even further. As a plus, it is very hard to enforce.

    Baiting people into committing violence is never a good solution, but even if we put that aside, that's a great way to make sure those prone to violence get together with their like minded friends for a few nights in the slammer and start talking. Not enough solitary confinement areas for each.

    The underlying idea of stronger police oversight of such areas is not bad, though, but that's pretty much being done already and most western countries already have harsher punishments for attacks on law enforcement officers.

    You're demanding them to renounce their faith and at the same time insult every other member of their faith?

    The "stupider" elements will listen to those who incite them to violence. The "smarter" elements would be aware that it doesn't matter. You'd be desecrating the dead for no good reason and invoke a totally justified backlash from pretty much the entire world.

    Up until this last point I may have been persuaded that you've actually given some thought to this in an attempt to provide an actual solution, but this is pathetic.
    Thinking about it, maybe the Libyan venture may have a silver lining after all. Make a settlement with the Libyan government for a 100 year loan of part of their territory, picked as the most inhospitable and least revenue-friendly they have. Pay them handsomely for use of this territory. Give this territory a name and a jurisdiction, with a governor general and everything. If any European Muslims would otherwise go to jail (where radicalisation frequently takes place), strip them of their European citizenships and give them citizenship of this place instead, and transport them there. The ancestors of the Aussies managed to make a success of it, so there's something for them to look forward to.

  13. #103
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Montomorency who calls frustration at inaction as "quasi fascistic".
    Idaho who who calls getting tougher; "futile and brainless."

    Both provide no alternatives; only snubbing all courses of action laid before them.
    That's the same thing you accused me of when I said you insinuate that everything but all out war equals inaction. Except that here you seem to prove me right to some extent (your idea of getting tougher and spending tons of money on it is not far away from the war rhetoric) and make the same mistake as shown by Monty saying that's absolutely not what he said. Montmorency wasn't just snubbing all courses of action, he also discussed with PVC why he thought that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Amazing what a question free of malice can get you.
    Yeah, on that note:

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    I care not for the numerical proportion of death terrorism causes compared to accidents; the very idea that an attack on the tribe by self declared outsiders should holds as little weight as an accident reeks of the insanity of ideolgues.

    The death of a man's the soul is to drown itself in such sociopathic apathy.
    Are you calling your opposition in this thread insane and sociopathic without even explaining WHY you think so?
    To me this looks like tribalism since you even use the word tribe yourself. A return to such outdated structural thought patterns does not appeal to me at all, especially not when the "tribe" I'm supposed to associate with is the size of a nation. I only associate with people as "my tribe" when I've personally vetted them and to that end I already know of quite a few people in this nation who I don't want to be associated with...

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    There are few carrots that can outweigh concerns of retaliation from neighbours, especially from a group that is prone going to extremes to enact such retaliations over matters of mere honor or apostacy.
    As others have said, moderate muslims often report on the crazy ones. By removing all carrots and treating the moderate ones like criminals, you remove their incentive to do so. You're also creating an artificial divide between yourself and the moderates that evidently doesn't exist for them at the moment as they're obviously trying to help us all fight the crazies. You're making the situation worse for everyone because you try to turn a complicated situation into one where you can easily separate people based on religion or travel destination etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Fines and light jail time. Accusations of racism has too often been used as a weapon to shield wrongdoing and to throw accusations without regard to accuracy must carry consequences, but the consequences must not be so harsh as to dissuade legitimate reporting.
    I asked where it is coming from, not where it is going to. To put it in your words, I'd like to see a few of your primary sources on racism accusations being used as a weapon. And what is "on the part of law enforcement"? It sounded like you were accusing the police of false reporting of hate crimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Subsidising the moving of residence out of the ghetto.
    And where to? As Fragony likes to say, a lot of our good people tend to move away when muslims move into the neighborhood. What makes you think they would want to subsidize such movement with their taxes? Of course we don't have a problem with xenophobia as saying that would be self-flagellation. (Or maybe it's time to stop pretending that we're not a superficial society with some xenophobia problems)

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Good question, start with everywhere a sharia court and/or sharia police operates and go from there.
    Such things shouldn't have been allowed to erxist in the first place. That's one of the things where I'd also advocate for a police crackdown and potential repatriation/long jail time. Whether it should be used to paint everyone in the neighborhood with the same brush is the real question though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    It is not much of a concern to me, if anything we have been treating them like a privledged class; no other community have been allowed to implement thier own courts, nor had criticism decried with such rigor, yet their members keep lashing out with unparalleled violence.
    That's only partially true as they have certainly not been privileged by their "fellow citizens", who gave them lower chances of employment, worse jobs, strange looks, insults, sometimes violent attacks and so on. The other part that is only half true is "their members" as it insinuates that all muslims are somehow in a group with the crazies. Even the parents often disagree with their children on these things. It would be more worthwhile to think about why that could be the case rather than disenfranchise the parents as well, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Addressing such concerns of the islamic community have been a primary objective of the governments of the last 16 years and they have failed to improve relations, prevent radicalization nor stop the type of violence we saw wednesday from being a popular choice for the disgruntled. It is futile to keep handling muslim communities with greater care for feelings than we do any other community that breaks the peace with similar regularity.
    Yes, and if we were talking about taxes, you'd blame the failure of the government instead of the taxpayers. But when it comes to muslims, questioning the attempts of the government somehow stops as we already know it's the fault of the muslims alone? As I said above, there is also a difference between how the government tries to treat muslims and what they have to endure by racists and other members of society, sometimes on a daily basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    I have no idea what you consider democratic values. They can still vote, cant they?
    Wow...So the fact they can still vote somehow justifies a tyranny of the majority? That's like saying Christians, Kurds and journalists can still vote in Turkey, why don't we let them into the EU already? Surely you'd agree based on how Turkey shares all your democratic values?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Eject all outright? No, But I am tired of waiting for reform. If British muslims as a group do not moderate thier own's behavior then they must have the law enforced without timidity.
    Yeah, well, social change and reform usually didn't come around within a short timeframe historically. To some extent it took us 40-50 years to disenfranchise the local muslims and notice that those abroad hate us a lot. Now you expect it all to be rolled back in a timeframe of around 15 years when a bit of thinking may tell you that it's much quicker to inflict a wound than to heal it or to destroy something than to repair it. Also consider that oppressive methods as you suggest them tend to widen the wound instead of healing it.

    You're also once more dividing people into arbitrary groups you made up just so you can use neat, straight lines. That's how your ancestors already ruined Africa and the Middle East and here you are doing it again, thinking it will work this time...

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Leaving them to thier own devices just makes the lives of everyone else worse, native or immigrant.
    So they need to be treated like children by a nanny state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Any response may incite racism/xenophobia in the minority but a lack of response most certainly incites it in the majority. A lack of response consumes in lives a price more precious than the treasure we spend on prevention and provides encouragement for the borderline fanatics to radicalize due to lack of consequence.
    Once more you only care about the concerns of the majority and see them as the standard for any action to be taken. That is the same approach that people like Putin and Erdogan as well as many Middle Eastern dictators take. Suppress minority concerns until they're too intimidated to complain or revolt. That's not democratic or fair, it's just another kind of oppression. You're also stating a lot of things that you have not proven at all. That a lack of consequence encourages those who are on the fence for example. Or that it encourages them more than oppression would. Or that inaction was even suggested by anyone as a viable alternative to your ideas...
    I'd much rather work towards a society where differences like those in religion matter less rather than more and where social mobility goes up and the wealth divide down. By making them matter less, you actually tear down the differences that make people feel disenfranchised and remove the incentive to listen to fanatics to improve their lot in life. And by giving people more incentive to work towards an improvement and an actual hope of getting somewhere, you further remove the incentive to blame someone else for their problems.
    Of course this whole "blame yourself" idea is already a thing, but as I see it, it's a fake thing at the moment that is used to oppress people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    The folly of further action you claim is spotted with maybes, but the doom of inaction is a certainty, brought closer with every madman that slips through our nation's tattered net.

    Terrorism is not the cost of doing business under the rules of Western culture it is the cost of pretending imported barbarism can be shed on it's own.
    Useless rhetoric that sounds like you copied it from alt-right propaganda.


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  14. #104
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Can you please leave what I say to me saying it, kthx
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Eject all outright? No, But I am tired of waiting for reform. If British muslims as a group do not moderate thier own's behavior then they must have the law enforced without timidity.

    Leaving them to thier own devices just makes the lives of everyone else worse, native or immigrant.


    Any response may incite racism/xenophobia in the minority but a lack of response most certainly incites it in the majority. A lack of response consumes in lives a price more precious than the treasure we spend on prevention and provides encouragement for the borderline fanatics to radicalize due to lack of consequence.

    The folly of further action you claim is spotted with maybes, but the doom of inaction is a certainty, brought closer with every madman that slips through our nation's tattered net.


    Terrorism is not the cost of doing business under the rules of Western culture it is the cost of pretending imported barbarism can be shed on it's own.

    I care not for the numerical proportion of death terrorism causes compared to accidents; the very idea that an attack on the tribe by self declared outsiders should holds as little weight as an accident reeks of the insanity of ideolgues.

    The death of a man's the soul is to drown itself in such sociopathic apathy.
    Excellent. Now I have you arguing your position the way it should be argued. Btw, I personally stand closer to your side of things than I do to the (hopefully accurate) summary of their position that I made.
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  16. #106
    The Red-titled Forum Administrator Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Terrorism is not the cost of doing business under the rules of Western culture it is the cost of pretending imported barbarism can be shed on it's own.
    How does hardline policy on immigration resolve homegrown terrorism?

    Adrian Russell Ajao (Later: Khalid Masood) was born in 1964 within a non-Muslim family. He was brought up in a seaside resort of Rye in a ú300,000 house and later on moved to upmarket Tunbridge Wells, Kent. He was not raised in socioeconomic poverty or have any background with Islam. It was approximately 41 years later that he converted to Islam, in 2005 (suspected).

    On another note "lack of response" is inaccurate as the the government has the CONTEST strategy in place, with elements such as PREVENT which involves schools, hospitals, etc. I am even duty bound by my workplace to report terrorism concerns to safeguarding and I am not in any branch of the security services.

    As for "If British muslims as a group do not moderate thier own", Khalid Masood was not known by his local Muslim community, even whilst he lived near one. Even then, the Muslim community do moderate their own and I know this second-hand from people who are actually Muslims and tell me these things, who also openly condemn the attacks.

    So much for "Doom of Inaction". There are approximately 3 million Muslims in the UK. If there was a grand islamic conspiracy, 3 million people can do a lot of damage. But instead, we get 1 guy who has a known violent history (including stabbings) before even becoming a Muslim, known by Mi5, who decided to wake up and murder some people. Your response? we should condemn everyone of those 3 million and label them as Barbarians.

    This view also seems to completely ignore far-right terrorism which is also on the significant rise. From the supposed 'culturally superior' western folk as you're alluding to.
    Last edited by Beskar; 03-26-2017 at 22:34.
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  17. #107
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Al Qaeda has declared an emphasis on combating the "near enemy". As should we.
    Vitiate Man.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    What far-right terrorism, not that it doesn't exist, that prick Breivik comes to mind, but terrorism is almost exclusive to radical-islam andthe far-left. Of course it's idiotic to hold the muslim community responsibe though, and it's unfair to ask from them to speak out as some would want them to, I would never ash them to do that they have bigger concerns like what's for dinner. But far-right terrorism please.. it isn't on the rise at all, statistically you can claim that it just doesn't exist
    Last edited by Fragony; 03-27-2017 at 09:02.
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    What far-right terrorism, not that it doesn't exist, that prick Breivik comes to mind, but terrorism is almost exclusive to radical-islam andthe far-left. Of course it's idiotic to hold the muslim community responsibe though, and it's unfair to ask from them to speak out as some would want them to, I would never ash them to do that they have bigger concerns like what's for dinner. But far-right terrorism please.. it isn't on the rise at all, statistically you can claim that it just doesn't exist
    Eh...
    http://www.dw.com/en/report-five-tim...015/a-19011109


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  20. #110
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Terrorism isn't the extent of the issue. It's what comes after that one has to worry about.
    Vitiate Man.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Oh more incidents, there are also more mutti-children, comes with incidents as well. Schaff this and keep arms-length
    Last edited by Fragony; 03-27-2017 at 12:20.
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Oh more incidents, there are also more mutti-children, comes with incidents as well. Schaff this and keep arms-length
    I take that as an apology, thankyouverymuch.


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  23. #113
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    I take that as an apology, thankyouverymuch.
    Don't care what and how you take it, that belongs in the random thoughts thread you know the link
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  24. #114
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Don't care what and how you take it, that belongs in the random thoughts thread you know the link
    Do I really need to explain it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    But far-right terrorism please.. it isn't on the rise at all, statistically you can claim that it just doesn't exist
    ->
    http://www.dw.com/en/report-five-tim...015/a-19011109
    ->
    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Oh more incidents, there are also more mutti-children, comes with incidents as well. Schaff this and keep arms-length
    I really don't see what's so hard to understand. Your point that far-right terrorism is almost non-existent is plain wrong and what you said afterwards does not make it right in the slightest.


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  25. #115
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    n n no you youknow uh no you d don't have t t explain it's r r really st t t raightforward
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  26. #116
    The Red-titled Forum Administrator Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Had Jo Cox murder Brexit-terrorism last year too, by Mr Thomas 'death to traitors, freedom for Britain' Mair.
    There is also Combat 18, English Defense League, Britain First, National Action and other right-wing terrorist organisations.

    A recent article here "Terror Arrests of Right-Wing Extremists" doubled.

    You also had the stabbing in New York which was overshadowed by the attack in London by a White Veteran Extremist. The various mass-shootings in the USA too, such as Dylann Roof.
    Last edited by Beskar; 03-27-2017 at 20:21.
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  27. #117
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Had Jo Cox murder Brexit-terrorism last year too, by Mr Thomas 'death to traitors, freedom for Britain' Mair.
    There is also Combat 18, English Defense League, Britain First, National Action and other right-wing terrorist organisations.

    A recent article here "Terror Arrests of Right-Wing Extremists" doubled.

    You also had the stabbing in New York which was overshadowed by the attack in London by a White Veteran Extremist. The various mass-shootings in the USA too, such as Dylann Roof.
    None of that matters to Fragony. The root of all that is that people are pissed about Muslim immigrants, therefore it is Muslims' fault. If those immigrants weren't here, there wouldn't have been any attacks.

    On a serious note, people need to understand that Muslim terrorist are the fringe element of the Muslim society. Even that is understatement - a Muslim terrorist is literally one in a million. The proper way to combat that isn't to lump that 0.0001% with the rest and treat them all the same, but to isolate them even further.

    Second important thing to understand is that there is no solution that takes care of this problem right away, even if you raise the entire army and police force and institute martial law in the country.

    Third issue, the actual danger of terrorist attacks needs to be put in perspective. More people are killed by bee stings than by terrorism. 25,000 people a year are killed by dogs in the world.

    Forth, people in western world are now safer than they were 10 years ago, or 50 years ago. In 2001, if you were in USA, you had a 1 in 100 000 chance to die from terrorism. 10 to 15 years later, the chance is roughly 1 in 56 million.

    Fifth, us Europeans are actually much more effective terrorists than Muslims, at least when it comes to killing civilians. You had a 1 in 25 000 chance to die of terrorism in Ulster. ETA and IRA were actually responsible for many more civilian deaths in Europe than Muslim terrorists.

    So, what needs to be done is:

    1) stop the scaremongering
    2) continue supporting Muslim societies, give them more exposure. Their condemnation of terrorism is much more effective than ours.
    3) continue surveillance of potential terrorists.

    ... re-evaluating and tweaking 2) and 3) based on feedback.

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  28. #118
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    None of that matters to Fragony. The root of all that is that people are pissed about Muslim immigrants, therefore it is Muslims' fault. If those immigrants weren't here, there wouldn't have been any attacks.

    On a serious note, people need to understand that Muslim terrorist are the fringe element of the Muslim society. Even that is understatement - a Muslim terrorist is literally one in a million. The proper way to combat that isn't to lump that 0.0001% with the rest and treat them all the same, but to isolate them even further.

    Second important thing to understand is that there is no solution that takes care of this problem right away, even if you raise the entire army and police force and institute martial law in the country.

    Third issue, the actual danger of terrorist attacks needs to be put in perspective. More people are killed by bee stings than by terrorism. 25,000 people a year are killed by dogs in the world.

    Forth, people in western world are now safer than they were 10 years ago, or 50 years ago. In 2001, if you were in USA, you had a 1 in 100 000 chance to die from terrorism. 10 to 15 years later, the chance is roughly 1 in 56 million.

    Fifth, us Europeans are actually much more effective terrorists than Muslims, at least when it comes to killing civilians. You had a 1 in 25 000 chance to die of terrorism in Ulster. ETA and IRA were actually responsible for many more civilian deaths in Europe than Muslim terrorists.

    So, what needs to be done is:

    1) stop the scaremongering
    2) continue supporting Muslim societies, give them more exposure. Their condemnation of terrorism is much more effective than ours.
    3) continue surveillance of potential terrorists.

    ... re-evaluating and tweaking 2) and 3) based on feedback.
    In the British experience, European terrorists are predictable, reasonable, and aim for goals that can be generally accommodated within our political framework. The worst Troubles-related attack was Omagh, and pretty much every republican group distanced themselves from the act and actors afterwards, and used all their muscle to clamp down on any repeats. In comparison, what happened after 7/7? An attempted repeat in south London a couple of months later. And various other attempts since, not to mention the successful attacks on the continent. Islamists have no goal that can be accommodated within the existing framework or anything that we're willing to tolerate, and they respond to atrocities by trying to further the bodycount.

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  29. #119
    The Red-titled Forum Administrator Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    As for "Sitting back doing nothing", the ACT Campaign is about and currently advertising at the moment.



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  30. #120
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Wht the focus on the statistics of getting killed in an attack, of course it's unlikely that you will. There are much bigger issues with islam as it's a conflicting ideoligy
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