A Literal Attack on British Democracy

[Gilrandir]

One thing, though. Our cat might be Muslim.

OMG! Have you circumsized him?

[Dâriûsh]

OMG! Have you circumsized him?

Nah, but he keeps meowing in a way that sounds like "Aloha Snackbar" or something.

[Husar]

DP...forum acting up today...

[Husar]

My words was a response to the idea that islamic terrorism was a "cost of doing business" of a western culture. This is false due to the unavoidable fact that if it werent for the presence of a wholey imported religion such events would not occur here. If we had not allowed islamic adheirants into our country this would not have been happening; this 50+ year old's conversion would have been extremely unlikely and his radicalization unthinkable.

If it weren't for us "importing" these people as you say, we wouldn't have this western culture that we have and we'd be more like the countries many of them flee from. How would that be an improvement?

There isnt one in this context, that's the point; your identifying with a group called liberal or progressive or whatever, produces the same behavior as to those who identify with the group called british. Both nation and all the other groupings of humanity hold and produce the same tendancy and capacity towards moderation, extremism, support for the fellow and hostility to the dissenter.

Trying to lable the national idenity as an "outdated structural thought pattern" is an arbitrary dismissal by one who has fooled himself into believeing that the protection his national identity providee is no longer needed.

In more modern terms, I am a briton, I am obligated to do my bit and even die to defend my countrymen in their time of need because I know that every member would do the same for me.

It is because it is the national identity that provides the greatest protection to myself that to allow such ambivilence at the fate of a tribesman in myself is insane. It will only encourage such reluctance among my fellow tribe members thus weaken the tribe's structure a whole and undermine it's ability to protect me. It is insane because undermining it goes against the human survival instinct.

First of all, then your definition of tribalism is useless and not at all what I was talking about originally.
Secondly, I said outdated tribalism, not nationalism, or are you saying tribalism, nationalism and groups are all synonyms now?
The rest is a terribly illogical fallacy because the tribal segregation does not increase your security at all if it leads to even bigger conflicts. One of the results can be seen in the new "conflict" over Gibraltar, you'd have to explain how a nuclear exchange or huge conventional wars over inter-tribal conflicts makes you more secure than a few terror attacks.

If being intolerant of sharia police, ghettos and easily retractable self exile to a terrorist hotspots are viewed as sticks to them 0then I dont want them here.
Also, what, subsidizing their buying of new homes isnt a carrot for leaving the ghetto?

I would deny them the priveledge to buy housing in areas that have reached a predetermined limit of muslim households. The assimilation encouragment comes from no longer living in a place where not assimiliating is an easy option, where not knowing the language or the customs of the locals is as hard a status to maintain as it is for every other minority group.

I think you are mistaking "Thought mutti merkel forbade" for insanity, again.

It's a privilege to buy housing where it is available for sale? What's next? A planned economy and total surveillance?
You're mistaking 1984 for the bible again.

Why are you so certain the reasons they are less likely to get jobs are not caused at least in part by thier own behavior and customs? For example if they cant speak english, as 22% of muslim women in the UK cannot, it is ludicrous think the burden of fault is on racism that these people would have trouble getting jobs in an english society. I find your assumption of one sided fault on the local's part for the muslim community's state as shallow and ideologically motivated.

Priveledge: a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group.
"education is a right, not a privilege"
synonyms: advantage, right, benefit, prerogative, entitlement, birthright, due;

They recive tolerances that no other group recieves from the government and society, intentionally and otherwise, by definition they are priveledged.

I'm not certain that none of it is due to "their own behavior and customs", but that would require inviting them to an interview in the first place. Denying them that based on the cultural connotations of a name is either racism or just a big prejudice, certainly not them being privileged. The reason I find this important is in the bible:

In the King James Version of the Bible the text reads: And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Matthew 7:3 - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_7:3

Your assumption that I see only one fault is entirely wrong, I see both and the most immediate one to fix is usually your own, then you get the moral highground to demand that the other fix theirs.

What tolerances do they receive that others do not? They get arrested if they try to kill you, that is not tolerance. Religious freedom counts for everyone and so on.

Punishment indicates retaliation, these measures are not retaliatory but precautionary. I acknowledge the theoretical nature of islam being voluntary in the post you quote but what remains is a group whose majority reject any internal and external attempts to amend the philosophy which regularly drive members to violence.

How do you know this? Can you even know this to a sufficient degree of certainty?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim...errorism#Polls
You might as well ask yourself why Germany gets all the good muslims and you get the bad ones.
If the only differing factors the host country and a different number of them believe terrorism is justified, then maybe that difference is caused by the behavior of the host country or the culture of the country of origin and not an inherent trait of muslims/the religion they have in common.
So much for "rejecting any external attempts" and their "philosophy" being the sole problem.

And of course it is punishment, you keep citing all the terror attacks that happened or were prevented as evidence for the necessity of your proposed actions and then you say they're precautionary....

The government failed, and was replaced by one who promised to try harder than the previous. The muslims are the constant, their communities uncooperative, members often abusive to eachother and everyone around them. Occasionaly they turn violent, even treasonous.

Such a state is intolerable, the public's patience is finite and their eventual retaliation is unpleseant to contemplate. I would avoid such a break by undermining that which prevents integration, if I have to suspend their indulgeances so be it, to do otherwise would be to accept eventual bloodshed and if they do not like it they can leave.

Rubbish, the constant is how society and the changing governments tried to "fix the muslims", I showed above that muslim behavior is not constant depending on which Western nation they live in. Changing your government does not matter if the new government and society at large continue with the same attitude towards muslims. That's where the constant can be found.

As for the lynch mob you keep threatening with, you're just painting a very ugly pciture of British idiots there, that's about it. Since when do you think government policy should adapt to such blackmailing with a threat of genocide? Might as well ask the government to do what ISIS demands then.

It is a strange form of democratic oppresion that does not impede their ability to partake the democratic process.

You keep harping on about that when I already explained why you're wrong. Can't help you there, my time is also limited.

There wasnt any significant amount of islam in western europe to commit islamic terrorism before colonialism. You mistake acknowledgement of a course of action's inevitable outcome for desire, if I and those like me wanted it to happen we would merely have to keep our mouths shut and watch the west march towards the precepice.

Yes, back then there was "merely" a sultan besieging Vienna and a caliphate or two in Spain. And a few crusadfes into their lands with a massacre or two. Everything was a lot more peaceful.
The actual question though was why e.g. their soldiers didn't commit suicide terror attacks en masse if that is somehow an inherent part of their faith? They didn't commit terror attacks when their armies could compete with ours. And colonialism is part of the reason many of them live in Britain today in the first place. So as I said the situation today is really your own fault.

Petty, post colonial, borderline marxist, twaddle.

Do you miss the atlantic slave route? The arabian slave markets? The Baraby corsairs? The French Empire?

The Third Reich?

The USSR?

None of that has any relevance to your colonialism ruining half the planet...it's merely a distraction, a smokescreen to hide behind.

Come now man, a child knows that the lack of consequence to a taboo only encourages indulgance, though they'd say it with less eloquence, like "who cares, noones watching".

And that is an answer to the following (my original post you were referring to), how?

Once more you only care about the concerns of the majority and see them as the standard for any action to be taken. That is the same approach that people like Putin and Erdogan as well as many Middle Eastern dictators take. Suppress minority concerns until they're too intimidated to complain or revolt. That's not democratic or fair, it's just another kind of oppression. You're also stating a lot of things that you have not proven at all. That a lack of consequence encourages those who are on the fence for example. Or that it encourages them more than oppression would. Or that inaction was even suggested by anyone as a viable alternative to your ideas...

Oppression is the same as consequence to a taboo? Is a "Christian" Saudi Arabia the kind of country you desire?

Well your lack of action is making tolerance is going the way of the dodo, so I'd say your utopia is screwed.

What lack of action? You keep fighting windmills.

How out of touch are you that I need to prove that the right wing is dominant due to left wing obstinance? That Islamic terrorism isnt some component part of the western democracy?

Have you heard of le pen? She's kind of a big deal these days.

How big is your lack of understanding of my argument that you assume that I think that islamic terrorism were a component part of western democracy? You're fighting windmills again.
How big a deal Le Pen is and whether she stands for right wing dominance will be seen after the French election. Right wing in general was already a big deal for centuries, not sure why you would think I missed that.

[Fragony]

Something that has absolutily nothing to do with Islam just happened n Sweden. Same style, truck-> crowd. What's so fun about it

sometiiiimes I tell myseeelf I'm better of without you *enter saxophone*

ouch, https://mobile.twitter.com/GenvisecInfomap/status/850343914615820288/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geenstijl.nl%2F Not well integrated, when they said you need to spread it out they meant the butter on your bread, put lukefish on it and some pickles

[Kagemusha]

Something that has absolutily nothing to do with Islam just happened n Sweden. Same style, truck-> crowd. What's so fun about it

sometiiiimes I tell myseeelf I'm better of without you *enter saxophone*

ouch, https://mobile.twitter.com/GenvisecInfomap/status/850343914615820288/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geenstijl.nl%2F Not well integrated, when they said you need to spread it out they meant the butter on your bread, put lukefish on it and some pickles

So was the St.Petersburg subway terrorist attack also caused by bad immigration policies. Damn those darn gutmensch liberal Russkies right?

Little more flesh to the Stockholm attack: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...ple-stockholm/

[Fragony]

These are probably stumbling over eachother proving their correctness is the most powerful, like in kungfu-movies

Stockholm, fitting

[Husar]

These are probably stumbling over eachother proving their correctness is the most powerful, like in kungfu-movies

Stockholm, fitting

One could almost think you're stumbling over yourself cheering on the terrorists for attacking the target that proves your correctness the most powerful. But that's just a crazy thought from a crazy wrong person who ain't know kungfu.

[Gilrandir]

So was the St.Petersburg subway terrorist attack also caused by bad immigration policies. Damn those darn gutmensch liberal Russkies right?

There have been opinions expressed that the attack in Petersburg was an FSB product, much as the ones that happened in Russia soon after Putin's ascention. Back then he had needed to consolidate his power and start a war on Chechens. There are some reasons why he needs to tighten the screws now.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/03/27/eu...sts-explainer/

[Brenus]

And 9/11 was a CIA inside job...

[Fragony]

One could almost think you're stumbling over yourself cheering on the terrorists for attacking the target that proves your correctness the most powerful. But that's just a crazy thought from a crazy wrong person who ain't know kungfu.

I am just the guy that isn't surprised at all, nothing more

[Elmetiacos]

More hysteria from politicians and the meeja, more copycats.

[Fragony]

Going amok, must be aswang. #loliknowindonesianwords

[Fragony]

Hilarious http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven...stockfoto.html If you insist on photoshopping use the same resolution dear Swedish media, making it not obvious, you must..

Swedes are even bad at being dumb

[Beskar]

Hilarious http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven...stockfoto.html If you insist on photoshopping use the same resolution dear Swedish media, making it not obvious, you must..

Swedes are even bad at being dumb

? Nothing on the link refers to photoshop.

[Fragony]

? Nothing on the link refers to photoshop.

It just takes comparing resolutions, you'll see. What does it matter anyway, Sweden has commited suicide years ago.

[Greyblades]

If it weren't for us "importing" these people as you say, we wouldn't have this western culture that we have and we'd be more like the countries many of them flee from. How would that be an improvement?

Your education is sorely lacking if you think western culture is defined by national suicde.

In fact I dont think you know what western culture is; you impose your self hatred upon the identity and think the self destructive impulse is a core part of the western world.

That may be german culture but it most certainly isnt western.

First of all, then your definition of tribalism is useless and not at all what I was talking about originally.
Secondly, I said outdated tribalism, not nationalism, or are you saying tribalism, nationalism and groups are all synonyms now?
The rest is a terribly illogical fallacy because the tribal segregation does not increase your security at all if it leads to even bigger conflicts. One of the results can be seen in the new "conflict" over Gibraltar, you'd have to explain how a nuclear exchange or huge conventional wars over inter-tribal conflicts makes you more secure than a few terror attacks.

Gibraltar wont turn into a conflict precisely because my tribe is too strong for the spanish to attack.

You panic over posturing and miss the point completely. Tribalism and groups are synonymous, Nationalism is a form of tribe, by your quiet abandonment of the "National identity is outdated" angle and not adopting an argument that your identity is somehow different or superior to national identity, my definition has proven it's worth.

It's a privilege to buy housing where it is available for sale? What's next? A planned economy and total surveillance?
You're mistaking 1984 for the bible again.

It is a privledge for foreigners to dwell wherever they want in a country and there is nothing more foreign than those who desire a ghetto.

Even in america there is no right of free residence.

I'm not certain that none of it is due to "their own behavior and customs", but that would require inviting them to an interview in the first place. Denying them that based on the cultural connotations of a name is either racism or just a big prejudice, certainly not them being privileged. The reason I find this important is in the bible:

Your assumption that I see only one fault is entirely wrong, I see both and the most immediate one to fix is usually your own, then you get the moral highground to demand that the other fix theirs.

What tolerances do they receive that others do not? They get arrested if they try to kill you, that is not tolerance. Religious freedom counts for everyone and so on.

They didnt get arrested if they fucked kids for 16 years.

Even now to criticize islam comes at great political risk compared to any other group: just last election the labour party was promising to impose a blasphemy law against those accused of islamaphobia.

I refer you to the words of the late Christopher Hitchens for a more comprehensive assessment of the state of the nation when it comes to islam:



He also covers the word's use and nebulous definition.

How do you know this? Can you even know this to a sufficient degree of certainty?
The quran cannot be changed, that is a core tenat of islam.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim...errorism#Polls
You might as well ask yourself why Germany gets all the good muslims and you get the bad ones.
If the only differing factors the host country and a different number of them believe terrorism is justified, then maybe that difference is caused by the behavior of the host country or the culture of the country of origin and not an inherent trait of muslims/the religion they have in common.
So much for "rejecting any external attempts" and their "philosophy" being the sole problem.

Those numbers are from 2007, from before you stopped vetting your muslims to a greater degree than ours. I think you are underestimating the german muslim demographics of the time; you favoured the secular state of turkey and thus got secular turkish muslims, we favoured the islamic pakistan and ended up with islamist pakistani muslims.

I point to the fairly recent poll that shows islamic communities out of step with the majority of the British population on many issues the most glaring being the issue of homosexuality.
52% do not believe that homosexuality should be legal in Britain
The survey also shows 23% support the introduction of Sharia Law, 32% refuse to condemn those who take part in violence against those who mock the Prophet, 39% agree that “wives should always obey their husbands” and that only 34% would inform the police if they thought somebody they knew was getting involved with people who support terrorism in Syria.

The islamic population still exhibits such views in spite of the continuing constant, nigh propagandic, push in the favour of progressivism in the 9 years between your poll and mine. This tells me islam has a resistance to change that outshines every other demographic.

And of course it is punishment, you keep citing all the terror attacks that happened or were prevented as evidence for the necessity of your proposed actions and then you say they're precautionary....

...What, you think that there isnt any more attempts on the horizon?

Stop wasting my braincells with such embarrasing attempts at imprinting base motive, When the logic is sound and the need apparant the angle of the advocate is insignificant.

Rubbish, the constant is how society and the changing governments tried to "fix the muslims", I showed above that muslim behavior is not constant depending on which Western nation they live in. Changing your government does not matter if the new government and society at large continue with the same attitude towards muslims. That's where the constant can be found.

As for the lynch mob you keep threatening with, you're just painting a very ugly pciture of British idiots there, that's about it. Since when do you think government policy should adapt to such blackmailing with a threat of genocide? Might as well ask the government to do what ISIS demands then.

You are souless or stupid if you think even the most tolerant of people has no breaking point; even your own saintly germans are starting to turn against the abusive guests, at a greater rate than my own I might add.

Blackmail indicates that the person proclaiming it could stop it if they wanted. You cant stop resentment without stopping the source and the source is the adheirants of islam raping your children.

You keep harping on about that when I already explained why you're wrong. Can't help you there, my time is also limited.

You havent; thats why I harp, you want to waste time by clinging to a warped definition of demicratic why shouldnt I waste yours?

Yes, back then there was "merely" a sultan besieging Vienna and a caliphate or two in Spain. And a few crusadfes into their lands with a massacre or two. Everything was a lot more peaceful.

Vienna didnt fall and the spanish caliphate's influence was exterminated after the reconquiesta. Islam didnt stick.

The actual question though was why e.g. their soldiers didn't commit suicide terror attacks en masse if that is somehow an inherent part of their faith? They didn't commit terror attacks when their armies could compete with ours. And colonialism is part of the reason many of them live in Britain today in the first place. So as I said the situation today is really your own fault.

They didnt commit terror attacks because terror attacks require civillian infiltation, which was impossible due to the absence of islam in the west and a complete rejection of islamic peoples in the border areas. As for suicide attacks, you've never heard of the forlorne hope?

None of that has any relevance to your colonialism ruining half the planet...it's merely a distraction, a smokescreen to hide behind.

Again. Petty, post colonial, borderline marxist, twaddle.

Those thing were ended by the british empire and it's offspring, half of them likely would still be here were it not for us.

Truly it was to ruin to the world that we decided to kill slavery where we found it(!)

The longer most places were under us the better off they turned out and it was your empire that cut the process short.

And that is an answer to the following (my original post you were referring to), how?

Oppression is the same as consequence to a taboo? Is a "Christian" Saudi Arabia the kind of country you desire?

That a lack of consequence encourages those who are on the fence for example. Or that it encourages them more than oppression would.
If a child wants to do something his parents have disallowed and he thinks he can get away with it unnoticed he will try. That impulse does not magically dissapear with adulthood. People pirate things all the time despite illegality because it is beneficial to them and almost impossible to be caught.
Thus a lack of consequence encourages those who are on the fence, and that it encourages them more than "oppression" would.

Incidentally your referring to the removal of funding from terror states, consequences for harrassmnent of non muslims and advocating islamic extremism as "oppression" is as absurd as the pirate calling the possibility of being sued for copyright infringement: oppression.

What lack of action? You keep fighting windmills.

Windmills that try to cover up the raping of kids and downplay murdering with trucks. See you and sweden.

How you can keep denying reality at this point is beyond me.

How big is your lack of understanding of my argument that you assume that I think that islamic terrorism were a component part of western democracy? You're fighting windmills again.

You have to prove those statements first before I need to answer them

*drops mic*

[Greyblades]

Stockholm attack driver 'deliberately targeted young children' as he drove hijacked lorry into crowd

Your nation bends over backwards to accomidate islam, you stay out of wars against their friends, you pay millions into supporting their relatives at home, you drive yourself towards bankruptcy to accomidate their refugees and still someone will try to kill your kids in the name of allah.

[Gilrandir]

Incidentally Your referring to the removal of funding from terror states, consequences for harrassmnent of non muslims and advocating islamic extremism as "oppression" is as absurd as the pirate calling the possibility of being sued for copyright infringement: oppression.

Most likely it is accidental, but I like the look of it. Sounds almost like Your Grace or Your Highness.

[Husar]

Your education is sorely lacking if you think western culture is defined by national suicde.

In fact I dont think you know what western culture is; you impose your self hatred upon the identity and think the self destructive impulse is a core part of the western world.

That may be german culture but it most certainly isnt western.

That's such terrible propaganda full of loaded alt-right-PC-language that I once again tell you good bye, rest was tl;dr for that reason.

Pointless to bother with this any further.

[Fragony]

Stockholm attack driver 'deliberately targeted young children' as he drove hijacked lorry into crowd

Your nation bends over backwards to accomidate islam, you stay out of wars against their friends, you pay millions into supporting their relatives at home, you drive yourself towards bankruptcy to accomidate their refugees and still someone will try to kill your kids in the name of allah.

The land of the Stephard Husbands is simply commiting suicide. With a smile.

I don't know this site or it's content, havent looked, but this cartoon is Sweden in a nutshell https://www.google.nl/search?q=are+y...8ofIFYoQ3g4uM:

[Greyblades]

That's such terrible propaganda full of loaded alt-right-PC-language that I once again tell you good bye, rest was tl;dr for that reason.

Pointless to bother with this any further.

It's easier to call a challenge propaganda and flee than stand to defend the core of your beliefs. just as it is easier to call ideas alt right than attempt to debate them.

Run, Coward. Die for your leaders' selfish persuit of virtuous legacy if you must, but spare us the posturing of your blind indoctrination.

[Sarmatian]

You have to put an argument worth debating for someone to engage in a debate with you.

Immigrants are good because there are elephants in Africa! Debate me, coward!

[Montmorency]

бесполезно

[Strike For The South]

Cyrillic is trash

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Cyrillic is trash

Should that be Cyrillic is Корзина?

[Montmorency]

Should that be Cyrillic is Корзина?

Cyrillic in a basket?

[Sarmatian]

Stop ruining the bestest alphabet in the world.

[Gilrandir]

Should that be Cyrillic is Корзина?

Trash is literally мусор.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Trash is literally мусор.

My google trans effort has failed yet again