Page 29 of 121 FirstFirst ... 192526272829303132333979 ... LastLast
Results 841 to 870 of 3622

Thread: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

  1. #841
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    We don't need to stand up to it, we just need to move away from it. It is the way the EU Regulations get added straight to UK law. How their courts can overturn the UK courts if they choose.

    I am capable of having a view on a subject and at the same time not agree with how the process has been undertaken. No sides have covered themselves in glory - the EU has set its demands and appears to view progress on "negotiation" how quickly the UK agrees with all the demands. The UK side appears to either be playing a very canny game or has no real clue what they want / think is realistic. Of course what they want is to leave with a full open access - who wouldn't? Of course that is not possible since the EU would not exist if people could have a free trade deal without the overheads.

    My personal view has been related to the reduction / increasing removal of sovereignty of the UK to a relatively remove bureaucracy that mainly answers to other parts of itself. Not immigrants who in the main are more law abiding and productive than the locals. As you've probably gleaned I'd want a NAFTA / NATO situation covering both commercial and military treaties. But who would pay for all the supranational bureaucrats?

    Are you in favour of a customs union with the EU?

  2. #842
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Taplow, UK
    Posts
    8,688
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Are you in favour of a customs union with the EU?
    I would be delighted to have the sort of Free Trade arrangement that is the case in NAFTA / TPP or the deals with South Korea and Canada. The whole concept of low tariffs to facilitate trade between partners.

    The Customs Union enforces that all parties need to also set the same tariffs on all parties outside of the Customs Union - which is how it differs from a Free Trade Agreement. And is probably why apart from the EU most countries with large economies are not part of one since it radically hobbles what they can do.

    So the short answer is "Probably not" since it would force the UK to not be able to enter into other trade agreements without the EU's consent. I would wish for the UK to be able to have an agreement with the EU and other countries as the UK sees fit. Y'know, be an independent sovereign state.

    Unless of course the UK has a Veto on decisions that the Customs Union makes - else the UK is again being dictated to by a foreign power.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  3. #843
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    I would be delighted to have the sort of Free Trade arrangement that is the case in NAFTA / TPP or the deals with South Korea and Canada. The whole concept of low tariffs to facilitate trade between partners.

    The Customs Union enforces that all parties need to also set the same tariffs on all parties outside of the Customs Union - which is how it differs from a Free Trade Agreement. And is probably why apart from the EU most countries with large economies are not part of one since it radically hobbles what they can do.

    So the short answer is "Probably not" since it would force the UK to not be able to enter into other trade agreements without the EU's consent. I would wish for the UK to be able to have an agreement with the EU and other countries as the UK sees fit. Y'know, be an independent sovereign state.

    Unless of course the UK has a Veto on decisions that the Customs Union makes - else the UK is again being dictated to by a foreign power.

    It's a binary question. Do you want the UK to be in a customs union with the EU? Legally there's no fudging the question. It's either yes, or it's no.

  4. #844
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Taplow, UK
    Posts
    8,688
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    It's a binary question. Do you want the UK to be in a customs union with the EU? Legally there's no fudging the question. It's either yes, or it's no.
    If it is a binary question, then no - offer a free trade agreement and look to do the same with other countries around the world.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  5. #845
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    If it is a binary question, then no - offer a free trade agreement and look to do the same with other countries around the world.

    You moaned about all the extra bureaucrats we have to pay for. Leaving the customs union means replicating all the red tape that being inside the EU renders unnecessary. Ahead of implementing Brexit, the government has been recruiting bureaucrats en masse for this purpose, the last I heard having recruited 1000 or so at 100k a pop. The estimated figure for post-Brexit requirements is somewhere between 5000-10000 extra bureaucrats to deal with the work that a UK outside the EU throws up.

    Then of course there's the single market. May has agreed to replicate all the regulations that the EU passes post-Brexit, except of course the post-Brexit UK no longer has a say. Because lack of regulations doesn't mean a sudden freedom from bureaucracy. The market that the UK caters to is far closer to the EU's demands than to the demands of, let's pick an example, the US. Removing regulations doesn't mean UK traders/farmers/manufacturers, etc. no longer have to comply with them. It means they'll no longer be able to trade with the EU, and if the US has its way, it means opening the market to products that the British public deem unacceptable, as they're used to EU standards. And when we go the route agreed to by May, we'll need more bureaucracy to replicate the standards that we've always been to and have taken for granted, since we'll need to show that we do indeed do exactly as we're currently doing.

  6. #846
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Taplow, UK
    Posts
    8,688
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    You moaned about all the extra bureaucrats we have to pay for. Leaving the customs union means replicating all the red tape that being inside the EU renders unnecessary. Ahead of implementing Brexit, the government has been recruiting bureaucrats en masse for this purpose, the last I heard having recruited 1000 or so at 100k a pop. The estimated figure for post-Brexit requirements is somewhere between 5000-10000 extra bureaucrats to deal with the work that a UK outside the EU throws up.

    Then of course there's the single market. May has agreed to replicate all the regulations that the EU passes post-Brexit, except of course the post-Brexit UK no longer has a say. Because lack of regulations doesn't mean a sudden freedom from bureaucracy. The market that the UK caters to is far closer to the EU's demands than to the demands of, let's pick an example, the US. Removing regulations doesn't mean UK traders/farmers/manufacturers, etc. no longer have to comply with them. It means they'll no longer be able to trade with the EU, and if the US has its way, it means opening the market to products that the British public deem unacceptable, as they're used to EU standards. And when we go the route agreed to by May, we'll need more bureaucracy to replicate the standards that we've always been to and have taken for granted, since we'll need to show that we do indeed do exactly as we're currently doing.
    If the aim is purely to reduce customs jobs, we could just reduce it to 0% from everyone - problem solved! Perhaps there is more to this than purely the relationship with the EU... the rest of the world, for example?

    There is no need for these if the EU agreed to a Free Trade deal so it is the EU which imposing this requirement, not the UK.

    The single market again is not the entire world. China manages to trade with the EU without being a member and has very different standards for itself. And in the UK we managed to have regulations on products without the EU - you make it sound that the EU underlies modern civilization! In NAFTA the USA, Canada and Mexico all have different standards and yet they manage to have free trade.

    Both these requirements have been imposed by the EU, not by the UK. I fail to see why just because they have made the hurdles to leave then suddenly staying in suddenly is the "better" option.

    I understand that you believe that the EU is the answer to all of life's ills and every price we pay to be a member is perfectly acceptable. But to list their demands on leaving is somehow imposed by the UK is delusional.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  7. #847
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    If the aim is purely to reduce customs jobs, we could just reduce it to 0% from everyone - problem solved! Perhaps there is more to this than purely the relationship with the EU... the rest of the world, for example?

    There is no need for these if the EU agreed to a Free Trade deal so it is the EU which imposing this requirement, not the UK.

    The single market again is not the entire world. China manages to trade with the EU without being a member and has very different standards for itself. And in the UK we managed to have regulations on products without the EU - you make it sound that the EU underlies modern civilization! In NAFTA the USA, Canada and Mexico all have different standards and yet they manage to have free trade.

    Both these requirements have been imposed by the EU, not by the UK. I fail to see why just because they have made the hurdles to leave then suddenly staying in suddenly is the "better" option.

    I understand that you believe that the EU is the answer to all of life's ills and every price we pay to be a member is perfectly acceptable. But to list their demands on leaving is somehow imposed by the UK is delusional.

    I see EU membership as the status quo which I have no great desire to deviate from. I see the extrication from EU membership is as painful as was predicted by nearly all experts on the matter. You see the pain too, except that you blame the EU for it.

  8. #848
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Albion
    Posts
    15,930
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    "You can't have your cake and eat it too"

    or in this case, you cannot be both within EU and outside of the EU at the same time.
    Days since the Apocalypse began
    "We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
    "Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."

  9. #849
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    "You can't have your cake and eat it too"

    or in this case, you cannot be both within EU and outside of the EU at the same time.
    In this case, spitting on the cake and moaning about it being spoilt by someone's spittle.

    On the wonderful world of deregulation, and how China manages free trade with the EU despite having different standards. There is this SAR (Special Administrative Region) in China called Hong Kong. For historical reasons, it has near-UK levels of regulation for goods on its markets, unlike the much more loosely regulated (in practice) mainland Chinese markets. And for this reason, comparable goods are considerably more expensive in Hong Kong than in mainland China. And every mainland Chinese who can afford it will shop in Hong Kong rather than on the mainland. Because Hong Kong is more highly regulated, and thus its goods are more trustworthy. Related to this, there is a healthy import trade from Australia to China, again because the former is more highly regulated than the latter.

    The EU is one of the most highly and trustworthily regulated markets in the world. We currently benefit from the regulations, and the cost is spread across the EU, rather than is borne solely by the UK. The government has finally recognised that dropping these regulations is suicide, and has agreed to implement all of them. Except that we will no longer have a say in what they are, and the cost will be borne solely by ourselves. Add extra if we drop out of the customs union as well, as tariffs will be incurred every time parts cross our border.

    And oh yeah, as for lack of free trade deals being the fault of the EU alone. The EU agreed on our synchronisation of regulations and all the other substantial parts of the SM/CU, to facilitate free movement of goods and people (yup, we've dropped the objection to free movement of labour). And there are objections from other countries, not the EU, that we're getting a better deal than they have. So rory, do you want to point fingers at China, the US, etc.?

  10. #850
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Albion
    Posts
    15,930
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Brexit bill: Government loses key vote after Tory rebellion
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42346192
    The government has been narrowly defeated in a key vote on its Brexit bill after a rebellion by 11 Tory MPs.

    In a blow to Prime Minister Theresa May, MPs voted to give Parliament a legal guarantee of a vote on the final Brexit deal struck with Brussels.

    The government had argued this would jeopardise its chances of delivering a smooth departure from the EU.

    Despite a last-minute attempt to offer concessions to rebels, an amendment to the bill was backed by 309 to 305.

    Ministers said the "minor setback" would not prevent the UK leaving the EU in 2019.
    Days since the Apocalypse began
    "We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
    "Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."

  11. #851
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Forever adrift
    Posts
    5,955

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The government has finally recognised that dropping these regulations is suicide, and has agreed to implement all of them.

    Except that we will no longer have a say in what they are, and the cost will be borne solely by ourselves.
    All of them? i really didn't get that impression reading the wording of the final agreement!

    If you'd read flexcit you realise that much of what is product standards is determined not by the eu, but by international standards groups to which the eu is a participant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Brexit bill: Government loses key vote after Tory rebellion
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42346192
    Parliament is a wonderful beast.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 12-13-2017 at 23:41.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  12. #852
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Taplow, UK
    Posts
    8,688
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Loving the theory. Really good...

    Small flaw: almost all the goods they sell to the rest of the world don't come from Hong Kong. But lovely theory. The whole previous British Protectorate. China also wants their milk from New Zealand. I've no idea why they would trust them since they've nothing to do with the EU!

    Who is objecting? Which countries are desperate to get into a Customs Union with the EU?

    So... before the EU, people really were worried about German / French / UK products? Or is it that countries with a history of making good stuff joined together. But again - lovely theory.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  13. #853
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Loving the theory. Really good...

    Small flaw: almost all the goods they sell to the rest of the world don't come from Hong Kong. But lovely theory. The whole previous British Protectorate. China also wants their milk from New Zealand. I've no idea why they would trust them since they've nothing to do with the EU!

    Who is objecting? Which countries are desperate to get into a Customs Union with the EU?

    So... before the EU, people really were worried about German / French / UK products? Or is it that countries with a history of making good stuff joined together. But again - lovely theory.

    So you're missing the point that regulations are actually regarded as a good thing by the Chinese, whom you want to emulate by freeing the UK from the EU's regulations. And it's not just products manufactured in Hong Kong: all goods available for sale in Hong Kong are automatically regarded as superior, simply because the UK-derived regulations mean standards are applied more rigorously than on the mainland. Goods that may pass the muster in mainland China may not pass the muster in Hong Kong. However, goods that pass muster in Hong Kong will almost certainly be good enough for mainland customers. Similarly, goods that are available in the local western markets (that is Australia and New Zealand) will similarly be good enough for mainland Chinese, compared with their local markets.

  14. #854
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Latibulm mali regis in muris.
    Posts
    11,450

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    So you're missing the point that regulations are actually regarded as a good thing by the Chinese, whom you want to emulate by freeing the UK from the EU's regulations. And it's not just products manufactured in Hong Kong: all goods available for sale in Hong Kong are automatically regarded as superior, simply because the UK-derived regulations mean standards are applied more rigorously than on the mainland. Goods that may pass the muster in mainland China may not pass the muster in Hong Kong. However, goods that pass muster in Hong Kong will almost certainly be good enough for mainland customers. Similarly, goods that are available in the local western markets (that is Australia and New Zealand) will similarly be good enough for mainland Chinese, compared with their local markets.
    To be fair Pan-man, I believe he is asserting that the UK's own standards are good enough without needing to kowtow to the EU, not that you should emulate the 'Russian roulette' approach to product safety existing in the PRC.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  15. #855
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    To be fair Pan-man, I believe he is asserting that the UK's own standards are good enough without needing to kowtow to the EU, not that you should emulate the 'Russian roulette' approach to product safety existing in the PRC.
    That doesn't fit with the intention of wanting a trade deal with the US though, which usually begins with wanting food regulations to be changed closer to that of the US (thus making it easier for US farmers to export to the new market). UK's customary standards are far closer to the EU's demands than the US's. And if the UK agrees to these changed standards, then it means standards in the UK can no longer be assumed by the EU to be equivalent of the EU's. So the UK will need extra certification to prove that its goods are safe for use in the EU, its biggest market. Which we currently enjoy, without the extra red tape. And no, this isn't some imaginary Russian roulette. It's something that has already been raised by ministers.

  16. #856
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Forever adrift
    Posts
    5,955

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    To be fair Pan-man, I believe he is asserting that the UK's own standards are good enough without needing to kowtow to the EU, not that you should emulate the 'Russian roulette' approach to product safety existing in the PRC.
    it might also have something to do with the eu's desire to wield product standards as a form of economic protectionism.

    these nations have form, they are of more protectionist bent than the UK, and while it has been more common to brand the customs unions as a tariff barrier, this is doing the eu a disservice in failing to recognise the ingenious way they use non-tariff barriers.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  17. #857
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    it might also have something to do with the eu's desire to wield product standards as a form of economic protectionism.

    these nations have form, they are of more protectionist bent than the UK, and while it has been more common to brand the customs unions as a tariff barrier, this is doing the eu a disservice in failing to recognise the ingenious way they use non-tariff barriers.
    Would you like more Bombardiers?

  18. #858

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    it might also have something to do with the eu's desire to wield product standards as a form of economic protectionism.

    these nations have form, they are of more protectionist bent than the UK, and while it has been more common to brand the customs unions as a tariff barrier, this is doing the eu a disservice in failing to recognise the ingenious way they use non-tariff barriers.
    Could you expand on this? Every big country uses product standards this way, and indeed a product standard is by definition a barrier (if it's mandatory, noting that many standards are not materially limiting from market access).

    For example, in the early days of NAFTA Mexico tried limiting imports of US high fructose corn syrup on the basis of safety, health, and quality standards, but ultimately because HFCS is subsidized by the US government and competes with Mexican cane sugar. A few years later, Mexico tried outright taxing food products containing HFCS. In both these episodes, the WTO ruled against Mexico.

    Meanwhile, the US has many extant sanitary/quality standards buffering its own agricultural and animal product industries.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  19. #859
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    15,617

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Could you expand on this? Every big country uses product standards this way, and indeed a product standard is by definition a barrier (if it's mandatory, noting that many standards are not materially limiting from market access).

    For example, in the early days of NAFTA Mexico tried limiting imports of US high fructose corn syrup on the basis of safety, health, and quality standards, but ultimately because HFCS is subsidized by the US government and competes with Mexican cane sugar. A few years later, Mexico tried outright taxing food products containing HFCS. In both these episodes, the WTO ruled against Mexico.

    Meanwhile, the US has many extant sanitary/quality standards buffering its own agricultural and animal product industries.
    Is it only a minor issue here that HFCS is actually very bad for peoples' health because due to its cheapness it gets added to almost every food product and overloads their bodies with cheap sugar?
    It's funny to call it economic protectionism when people don't want to eat every unhealthy thing a billionaire-owned industry wants to throw at them. It's easy to say they should just buy organic instead, when that costs four times as much and isn't affordable for everyone.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  20. #860
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ukraine
    Posts
    4,010

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  21. #861
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Forever adrift
    Posts
    5,955

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Could you expand on this? Every big country uses product standards this way, and indeed a product standard is by definition a barrier (if it's mandatory, noting that many standards are not materially limiting from market access).

    For example, in the early days of NAFTA Mexico tried limiting imports of US high fructose corn syrup on the basis of safety, health, and quality standards, but ultimately because HFCS is subsidized by the US government and competes with Mexican cane sugar. A few years later, Mexico tried outright taxing food products containing HFCS. In both these episodes, the WTO ruled against Mexico.

    Meanwhile, the US has many extant sanitary/quality standards buffering its own agricultural and animal product industries.
    Sorry, is it somehow controversial to note that the eu as a bloc is more protectionist, and less open to the consequences of free-trade, than britain?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/...ade-agreement/
    http://patrickminford.net/wp/E2016_1.pdf
    Last edited by Furunculus; 12-17-2017 at 11:23.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  22. #862
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    Sorry, is it somehow controversial to note that the eu as a bloc is more protectionist, and less open to the consequences of free-trade, than britain?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/...ade-agreement/
    http://patrickminford.net/wp/E2016_1.pdf
    What else would you like 300% tariffs on?

    Member thankful for this post:

    Beskar 


  23. #863

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    Sorry, is it somehow controversial to note that the eu as a bloc is more protectionist, and less open to the consequences of free-trade, than britain?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/...ade-agreement/
    http://patrickminford.net/wp/E2016_1.pdf
    That doesn't address my question. Is there something special the EU does with safety/quality/sanitary/technical regulations as applied to items of external origin, something out of line with what countries in general tend to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    What else would you like 300% tariffs on?
    At some point, stop raising issues your interlocutors just don't care about.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  24. #864
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    That doesn't address my question. Is there something special the EU does with safety/quality/sanitary/technical regulations as applied to items of external origin, something out of line with what countries in general tend to do?

    At some point, stop raising issues your interlocutors just don't care about.
    Just because he doesn't care about it, doesn't mean the issues won't exist. For all he complains about the EU being a protectionist bloc, in the short time since the referendum, it's the US, supposedly the closest to us in thinking, and the model of neoliberal theorists, who have imposed ultra-protectionist measures to hurt us. And it's not just an unintentional side effect either; the tariff was originally set at 220%, then after the PM informed the US president of how this was hurting UK businesses, it was upped to 300%. Both the EU and the US are protectionist. Would Furunculus prefer we were without the support of anyone and at the mercy of any major economic bloc that wishes to screw us over? Because, from recent experience, this is what will happen.

  25. #865
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    8,408
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    What else would you like 300% tariffs on?
    American beef perhaps?
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Don't be scared that you don't freak out. Be scared when you don't care about freaking out
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Member thankful for this post:

    Husar 


  26. #866
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Forever adrift
    Posts
    5,955

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    That doesn't address my question. Is there something special the EU does with safety/quality/sanitary/technical regulations as applied to items of external origin, something out of line with what countries in general tend to do?

    At some point, stop raising issues your interlocutors just don't care about.
    I'm not concerned by 'countries in general'. It is not a matter of some particular thing, just a general case of more than I might wish for my country due to the inevitable requirement to meet every nations pet protection among a group generally less free-market oriented than the UK.

    It is not that I don't care about bombardier (i do), or that i hold america to be a beacon of free trade (i don't), simply that a particular trade dispute does not have much bearing on the merit or demerit of leaving the EU.Particularly not, when I don't value highly the ability for collective retaliation.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 12-20-2017 at 19:14.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

    Member thankful for this post:



  27. #867
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Wow, the ultra-undemocratic EU wants to strip Poland of their voting rights. Nobody ever voted for you you are appointed by shady mechanisms.

  28. #868
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Albion
    Posts
    15,930
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Wow, the ultra-undemocratic EU wants to strip Poland of their voting rights. Nobody ever voted for you you are appointed by shady mechanisms.
    From this one in June, it is in response to Poland threatening to remove separation of powers and breaking EU law.
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...l-independence
    Days since the Apocalypse began
    "We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
    "Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."

  29. #869
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Taplow, UK
    Posts
    8,688
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Poland has signed up to the EU oversight. And they are as a consequence no longer have full sovereignty. Or supra-national checks and balances when the innate ones fail - I think people would be a lot more worried if this was Germany who had at the same time decided to spend over 2% of GDP on their Military...

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

    Member thankful for this post:



  30. #870
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Poland has signed up to the EU oversight. And they are as a consequence no longer have full sovereignty. Or supra-national checks and balances when the innate ones fail - I think people would be a lot more worried if this was Germany who had at the same time decided to spend over 2% of GDP on their Military...

    Aren't we subject to a whole host of treaties and conventions that mean we no longer have full sovereignty? I can think of Geneva and Hague off the top of my head.

Page 29 of 121 FirstFirst ... 192526272829303132333979 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO