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Thread: Feminism out of control?

  1. #211

    Default Re: Feminism out of control?

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Sorry Monty, I think your sources miss the mark.

    My understanding of the Aziz Ansari night (I don't wish to read the babe article and give them the traffic they want) looks to be a story where the woman in question was consenting up to a point after which she did not make the necessary efforts to communicate the line with Aziz.

    What we want out of the MeToo movement is a recognition of the instances where the line has been drawn and deliberately crossed by men and women against other men and women to constitute sexual assault and harassment.
    Your quote sources put too much of the onus on Aziz to interpret the situation and "read the room" by himself. This is a common path left leaning 4th wave feminist authors seem to go towards.

    We can't go down this path, mainly because putting all of the blame of Aziz who received a consenting blow job from the women for not reading non-verbal hints about escalation is a great way to return to patronizing male behavior under previous patriarchal societies. The unidentified woman quite frankly gave conflicting messages, and she did not act in good faith if she believed that "non-verbal clues" were sufficient to chill a sexual encounter at that stage.


    Take for instance another quote from the guardian article:


    This ignores the heavy socialization that men are subjected to as well. Men must be the hunters, we must make the first moves, we must test the waters and start the conversation. These are also symptoms of toxic masculinity that feminism aims to dismantle.

    Quite frankly, this is the wrong message being attached to the wrong example. I think Margaret Atwood is onto something here ,when she received some feminist backlash about her comments on the treatment of an employee at the University of British Columbia.


    This is extremist behavior being snuck into an outlet of feminist expression. If we do not call it out for what it is, we risk going backwards. We should make the effort to maintain the balance of respecting female agency while avoiding victim blaming.
    [/FONT][/COLOR]
    So, I don't think any of that is in discord with the perspectives I posted.

    Men are taught to ignore clear female discomfort (taking the Grace account, if a hetero guy you wanted to ask out for beer or just talk to were responding the way Grace was, you would get the message as a non-autistic person; yet somehow this changes in sexual contact), because discomfort or hesitation is natural for women and men ought to be aggressive in overcoming it. Women are taught find the balance between being nice and accommodating, and setting clear boundaries to "defend their virtue", leaving little room for development or assertion of their own wants and needs.

    This conditioning needs to change on both ends. And you need a rational, institutional path for sorting out those instances "where the line has been drawn and deliberately crossed", i.e. assault/harassment; intermittent episodes of Internet shaming are not adequate as an enduring solution.

    In other words, from the Guardian article:

    This will only happen if we move beyond being reactively “sex positive” and recognize that human sexual interactions are not always clearcut: yes or no, good or bad, empowering or not, either assault and worth worrying about or technically consensual and therefore not at a problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by ACIN
    My understanding of the Aziz Ansari night (I don't wish to read the babe article and give them the traffic they want) looks to be a story where the woman in question was consenting up to a point after which she did not make the necessary efforts to communicate the line with Aziz.
    I get a different impression, that Aziz correctly interpreted her behavior as anxious demurral, and worked to break it down - again, not because he's necessarily a predator, but because that's how he understands sex. Let me repost here the scene between their arrival at the apartment and Grace's departure:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    ey walked the two blocks back to his apartment building, an exclusive address on TriBeCa’s Franklin Street, where Taylor Swift has a place too. When they walked back in, she complimented his marble countertops. According to Grace, Ansari turned the compliment into an invitation.

    “He said something along the lines of, ‘How about you hop up and take a seat?’” Within moments, he was kissing her. “In a second, his hand was on my breast.” Then he was undressing her, then he undressed himself. She remembers feeling uncomfortable at how quickly things escalated.

    When Ansari told her he was going to grab a condom within minutes of their first kiss, Grace voiced her hesitation explicitly. “I said something like, ‘Whoa, let’s relax for a sec, let’s chill.’” She says he then resumed kissing her, briefly performed oral sex on her, and asked her to do the same thing to him. She did, but not for long. “It was really quick. Everything was pretty much touched and done within ten minutes of hooking up, except for actual sex.”

    She says Ansari began making a move on her that he repeated during their encounter. “The move he kept doing was taking his two fingers in a V-shape and putting them in my mouth, in my throat to wet his fingers, because the moment he’d stick his fingers in my throat he’d go straight for my vagina and try to finger me.” Grace called the move “the claw.”

    Ansari also physically pulled her hand towards his penis multiple times throughout the night, from the time he first kissed her on the countertop onward. “He probably moved my hand to his dick five to seven times,” she said. “He really kept doing it after I moved it away.”

    But the main thing was that he wouldn’t let her move away from him. She compared the path they cut across his apartment to a football play. “It was 30 minutes of me getting up and moving and him following and sticking his fingers down my throat again. It was really repetitive. It felt like a fucking game.”

    Throughout the course of her short time in the apartment, she says she used verbal and non-verbal cues to indicate how uncomfortable and distressed she was. “Most of my discomfort was expressed in me pulling away and mumbling. I know that my hand stopped moving at some points,” she said. “I stopped moving my lips and turned cold.”

    Whether Ansari didn’t notice Grace’s reticence or knowingly ignored it is impossible for her to say. “I know I was physically giving off cues that I wasn’t interested. I don’t think that was noticed at all, or if it was, it was ignored.”

    Ansari wanted to have sex. She said she remembers him asking again and again, “Where do you want me to fuck you?” while she was still seated on the countertop. She says she found the question tough to answer because she says she didn’t want to fuck him at all.

    “I wasn’t really even thinking of that, I didn’t want to be engaged in that with him. But he kept asking, so I said, ‘Next time.’ And he goes, ‘Oh, you mean second date?’ and I go, ‘Oh, yeah, sure,’ and he goes, ‘Well, if I poured you another glass of wine now, would it count as our second date?’” He then poured her a glass and handed it to her. She excused herself to the bathroom soon after.

    Grace says she spent around five minutes in the bathroom, collecting herself in the mirror and splashing herself with water. Then she went back to Ansari. He asked her if she was okay. “I said I don’t want to feel forced because then I’ll hate you, and I’d rather not hate you,” she said.




    She told babe that at first, she was happy with how he reacted. “He said, ‘Oh, of course, it’s only fun if we’re both having fun.’ The response was technically very sweet and acknowledging the fact that I was very uncomfortable. Verbally, in that moment, he acknowledged that I needed to take it slow. Then he said, ‘Let’s just chill over here on the couch.’”

    This moment is particularly significant for Grace, because she thought that would be the end of the sexual encounter — her remark about not wanting to feel “forced” had added a verbal component to the cues she was trying to give him about her discomfort. When she sat down on the floor next to Ansari, who sat on the couch, she thought he might rub her back, or play with her hair — something to calm her down.

    Ansari instructed her to turn around. “He sat back and pointed to his penis and motioned for me to go down on him. And I did. I think I just felt really pressured. It was literally the most unexpected thing I thought would happen at that moment because I told him I was uncomfortable.”

    Soon, he pulled her back up onto the couch. She would tell her friend via text later that night, “He [made out] with me again and says, ‘Doesn’t look like you hate me.’”

    Halfway into the encounter, he led her from the couch to a different part of his apartment. He said he had to show her something. Then he brought her to a large mirror, bent her over and asked her again, “Where do you want me to fuck you? Do you want me to fuck you right here?” He rammed his penis against her ass while he said it, pantomiming intercourse.

    “I just remember looking in the mirror and seeing him behind me. He was very much caught up in the moment and I obviously very much wasn’t,” Grace said. “After he bent me over is when I stood up and said no, I don’t think I’m ready to do this, I really don’t think I’m going to do this. And he said, ‘How about we just chill, but this time with our clothes on?’”

    They got dressed, sat side by side on the couch they’d already “chilled” on, and he turned on an episode of Seinfeld. She’d never seen it before. She said that’s when the reality of what was going on sank in. “It really hit me that I was violated. I felt really emotional all at once when we sat down there. That that whole experience was actually horrible.”

    While the TV played in the background, he kissed her again, stuck his fingers down her throat again, and moved to undo her pants. She turned away. She remembers “feeling in a different mindset at that point.”

    “I remember saying, ‘You guys are all the same, you guys are all the fucking same.’” Ansari asked her what she meant. When she turned to answer, she says he met her with “gross, forceful kisses.”

    After that last kiss, Grace stood up from the couch, moved back to the kitchen island where she left her phone, and said she would call herself a car. He hugged her and kissed her goodbye, another “aggressive” kiss. When she pulled away, Ansari finally relented and insisted he’d call her the car. “He said, ‘It’s coming, but just tell them your name is Essence,’” she said, a name he has joked about using as a pseudonym in his sitcom.

    She teared up in the hallway, outside his place, pressing the down button on the elevator. The Uber was waiting when she left the building. He asked if she was Essence, she said yes, and then she rode back to her Brooklyn apartment. “I cried the whole ride home. At that point I felt violated. That last hour was so out of my hand.”
    Vitiate Man.

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    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  2. #212

    Default Re: Feminism out of control?

    Hmmm, that scenario played out differently than accounts in the media would have you think.

    I refused to read the source based on a prejudice stemming from videos like this:


    Maybe I'm reading too much reddit.


  3. #213
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Feminism out of control?

    Half of the problem is the way the story is written. I understand why the author would try and conflate not choosing the wine with what later transpired, power imbalances being what they are. Unfortunately, every rebuttal seems to lead with that. It was a very poor framing choice. By the end of the story the author makes the inexplicable choice to insert herself into the story and comment that it was in fact a very cute dress. The whole thing was very poorly put together. Coupled with her tantrum on twitter a few days later, it made for some low hanging fruit.

    How to move beyond the toxic masculinity that makes a man "press the advantage" when confronted with a less than enthusiastic woman is a problem that I do not have a solution for. The earliest media both boys and girls consume hammers a powerful narrative into our head. Men are to go out and impress while women are to be to discerning. There is also a disconnect between what people advocate for and roles within their own relationships. I have known many a feminist who wouldn't take the trash and many an ally who would end up eating a tide pod.

    Something that can be done is helping men with emotional intelligence. The rallying cry for many men seems to be "just say something". Considering how much of human communication isn't verbalized, this is a poor excuse for bad behavior.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  4. #214

    Default Re: Feminism out of control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Half of the problem is the way the story is written. I understand why the author would try and conflate not choosing the wine with what later transpired, power imbalances being what they are. Unfortunately, every rebuttal seems to lead with that. It was a very poor framing choice. By the end of the story the author makes the inexplicable choice to insert herself into the story and comment that it was in fact a very cute dress. The whole thing was very poorly put together. Coupled with her tantrum on twitter a few days later, it made for some low hanging fruit.
    It's arguable that the publication pursued this story as a feather in its cap. Apparently almost all the writing/editing staff of Babe are college-age; seems to be the new colloquial style. You can see the like in this CNN article, though it's authored by a middle-aged guy:

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Why no one knows anything as the government nears a shutdown

    Here's what we do know:
    The Senate will come back into session at 11 a.m. ET
    Sometime soon-ish(?) after that, the motion to end debate -- cloture in Senate slang -- and bring the House-passed bill to fund the government for another month will be brought up for a vote.
    It will fail. (Republicans, based on current whip counts, need a dozen Democrats to cross over and vote for the so-called continuing resolution. That is, um, not happening.)
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Something that can be done is helping men with emotional intelligence. The rallying cry for many men seems to be "just say something". Considering how much of human communication isn't verbalized, this is a poor excuse for bad behavior.
    Here's one take (the TLDR is in the title):

    Mythcommunication: It’s Not That They Don’t Understand, They Just Don’t Like The Answer

    I just read a paper from the discipline of conversation analysis. It dovetails nicely with what I wrote in Talking Past Each Other, and I’m going to go through some of the findings (I can’t redistribute the paper itself), and talk about some conclusions. Long story short: in conversation, “no” is disfavored, and people try to say no in ways that soften the rejection, often avoiding the word at all. People issue rejections in softened language, and people hear rejections in softened language, and the notion that anything but a clear “no” can’t be understood is just nonsense. First, the notion that rape results from miscommunication is just wrong. Rape results from a refusal to heed, rather than an inability to understand, a rejection. Second, while the authors of the paper say that this makes all rape prevention advice about communicating a clear “no” pointless, I have a different take. Clear communication of “no” isn’t primarily going to avoid miscommunication — rather, it’s a meta-message. Clear communication against the undercurrent that “no” is rude and should be softened is a sign of the willingness to fight, to yell, to report.
    @Seamus Fermanagh this is your discipline. Any thoughts?

    many an ally who would end up eating a tide pod.
    ?????

    Is this the new "jenkem scare"?


    EDIT: Here's a source for the Babe staff ages.

    "Most of our hires are recent grads, and I think having a team this young — our average age is 23 — and this talented and hardworking is what’s been the most important part of our growth," Mitzali said.

    Indeed, the oldest editorial staffer at Babe is 25.
    DO NOT search for "college age Babe".
    Last edited by Montmorency; 01-22-2018 at 18:01.
    Vitiate Man.

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    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  5. #215
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Feminism out of control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    ... @Seamus Fermanagh this is your discipline. Any thoughts?
    Buddy of mine in grad school used conversation analysis as his prime methodology. I was also fortunate enough to have a class with Robert Hopper [RIP] who was probably it's foremost practitioner for a time. It is an incredibly intense focus on conversational exchanges and how sounds, gestures, utterances and very minute changes therein alter the course, tone, and content of a conversational exchange. What impact does a 1.3 second pause following a surprise revelation during a phone call have when compared to a 1.7 second pause? Very meticulous stuff, but the combinations of 'move/countermove' are endless and fascinating.

    This can be used to emphasize the potential for people to end up "talking past each other," (hopefully Thomas, the author you quote above, referenced J.F. Lyotard's Le Differend in writing the piece he refers to. If not, he's stealing the idea on a nearly word for word basis) when there is no shared decision rule for how to interpret an exchange or when people do not clearly identify the decision rule they seek to evoke. Thomas references it positively, suggesting (correctly) that there are more ways to say no than a simple bald declarative. On the other hand, he is completely underplaying the role of context and culture in determining the decision rules we as listeners will use to interpret an utterance.

    e.g. In Japan (a classic example of the high context/indirect communication style of culture), at least prior to the turn of the 20th, a businessman would say a mild/qualified/lukewarm in tone "Yes" in order to indicate "No" or "Hell No" while not causing the other party to lose face by being denied in a bald, outright fashion. This caused no end of problems with US (low context, direct communication culture) business people who took the intended no as an actual yes and tried to move forward contractually from there.

    e.g. My wife (then fiancée) was propositioned at a party (At Hopper's house btw) by a woman grad student from English writing whom she'd met in an English Rhetoric class. My wife said thanks but no thanks, then pointed to me across the room and noted that she was here with her fiancée [subtext of message. No, and I don't go for same sex]. Response was along the lines of "congratulations, but it doesn't matter what you do with a male, I am interested in expressing REAL physical love with you [subtext of message being men and penetrative sex are irrelevant, are you interested/do you really mean no?]. There are whole layers of co-cultural and situational influences on the correct interpretation of these messages.

    For Lyotard and the other Post-modernists, there was an essential emphasis on the pastiche -- that communicative meaning could be achieved but only in, of, and for that moment. Contrastingly, Habermas would suggest that the difference in message, and the effort to resolve and bring them together, are the source of communicative structure (and by extension all societal structure). I'm more on the Habermas side, as I don't view everything as fleeting and connected only haphazardly.

    Either way, though, saying no is clearest when it is a bald declarative. Not all are comfortable being so blunt, however, as cultural mores and/or situational concerns may be driving their choice of message every bit as much or more than does the specific discrete message objective.

    And that's not even focusing on the axiom that all messages have both a content [subject material of the exchange] and a relational [implied status of the nature of the relationship between conversants] that are going on, and which very much DO affect how we seek to communicate a specific message.

    Enough to chew on for now?
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  6. #216

    Default Re: Feminism out of control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Enough to chew on for now?
    It's useful, but somewhat tangential...

    I was confused, but it looks like you were replying strictly to the quoted paragraph. I don't follow the linked blog or know anything about it's proprietor/contributors. To summarize the article and its relevance:

    The author (Thomas) was expanding on Kitzinger & Frith. "Just Say No? The Use of Conversation Analysis In Developing A Feminist Perspective On Sexual Refusal", Discourse & Society 1999 10:293. Which paper basically:

    Drawing on the conversation analytic literature, and on our own data, we claim that both men and women have a sophisticated ability to convey and to comprehend refusals, including refusals which do not include the word ‘no’, and we suggest that male claims not to have ‘understood’ refusals which conform to culturally normative patterns can only be heard as self-interested justifications for coercive behaviour.
    In sum, these young women’s talk about the rudeness and arrogance which would be attributed to them, and the foolishness they would feel, in saying clear and direct ‘no’s, indicates their awareness that such behaviour violates culturally accepted norms according to which refusals are dispreferred actions.
    [Y]oung women responding to unwanted sexual pressure are using absolutely normal conversational patterns for refusals: that is, according to the research literature (and our own data) on young women and sexual communication, they are communicating their refusals indirectly; their refusals rarely refer to their own lack of desire for sex and more often to external circumstances which make sex impossible; their refusals are often qualified (‘maybe later’), and are accompanied by compliments (‘I really like you, but . . .’) or by appreciations of the invitation (‘it’s very flattering of you to ask, but . . .’); and sometimes they refuse sex with the kind of ‘yes’s which are normatively understood as communicating refusal. These features are all part of what are commonly understood to be refusals.
    The problem of sexual coercion cannot be fixed by changing the way women talk.
    From his own work Thomas adds,

    Indeed it is evident that these young men share the understanding that explicit verbal refusals of sex per se are unnecessary to effectively communicate the withholding of consent to sex.
    All of this is taken to demonstrate that "It’s Not That [Men] Don’t Understand, They Just Don’t Like The Answer." Being also that most rapes are committed by dedicated predators and serial rapists, men who rely on alcohol and try to isolate the most pliant and vulnerable women in a given space or environment, it has been suggested that teaching women to say "No" more forcefully is fruitless. Here Thomas disagrees, because

    I’m no communications theorist, but communications are layered things. As we’ve seen, the literal meaning of a message is only one aspect of the message, and the way it’s delivered can signal something entirely different. Rapists are not missing the literal meaning, I think it’s clear. What they’re doing is ignoring the literal message (refusal) and paying very close attention to the meta-message. I tell my niece, “if a guy offers to buy you a drink and you say no, and he pesters you until you say okay, what he wants for his money is to find out if you can be talked out of no.” The rapist doesn’t listen to refusals, he probes for signs of resistance in the meta-message, the difference between a target who doesn’t want to but can be pushed, and a target who doesn’t want to and will stand by that even if she has to be blunt. It follows that the purpose of setting clear boundaries is not to be understood — that’s not a problem — but to be understood to be too hard a target.
    If rapists are "rational and opportunistic", forceful refusals may be an effective means of self-defense for a woman in a particular situation, even as "the only lasting answer is to change the culture".


    Now we can see for ourselves the implications for the thread at-large. I mean, that's what I was getting at with the query.
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  7. #217

    Default Re: Feminism out of control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    many an ally who would end up eating a tide pod.
    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    ?????

    Is this the new "jenkem scare"?
    This gives me such joy.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  8. #218
    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: Feminism out of control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    This gives me such joy.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Why? Because the social media frenzy has finally culminated in giving people who are so desperate for attention that they are willing to do something that will either kill them or leave them with lifelong medical problems just for views or likes?
    Requesting suggestions for new sig.

    -><- GOGOGO GOGOGO WINLAND WINLAND ALL HAIL TECHNOVIKING!SCHUMACHER!
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    WHY AM I NOT BEING PAID FOR THIS???

  9. #219

    Default Re: Feminism out of control?

    Quote Originally Posted by CrossLOPER View Post
    Why? Because the social media frenzy has finally culminated in giving people who are so desperate for attention that they are willing to do something that will either kill them or leave them with lifelong medical problems just for views or likes?
    The skit video is funny. People hurting themselves isn't funny.
    Vitiate Man.

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    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  10. #220
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Feminism out of control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    e.g. My wife (then fiancée) was propositioned at a party (At Hopper's house btw) by a woman grad student from English writing whom she'd met in an English Rhetoric class. My wife said thanks but no thanks, then pointed to me across the room and noted that she was here with her fiancée [subtext of message. No, and I don't go for same sex]. Response was along the lines of "congratulations, but it doesn't matter what you do with a male, I am interested in expressing REAL physical love with you [subtext of message being men and penetrative sex are irrelevant, are you interested/do you really mean no?].
    If you rendered your wife's response accurately, it is clear why that woman's advances at her were continued. Pointing at you she should have said "fiance" instead of "fiancee".
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 01-23-2018 at 14:26.
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    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  11. #221
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Feminism out of control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    If you rendered your wife's response accurately, it is clear why that woman's advances at her were continued. Pointing at you she should have said "fiance" instead of "fiancee".
    My typo I fear....verdamt froggie language
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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