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Thread: Autobattles

  1. #31
    Member Member LordK9's Avatar
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    Default Re: Autobattles

    nikolai1962 said: Yeah, the AI generals' suicide charge in battle is one of the biggest AI flaws (and is probably partly related to giving the general unit strong stats for autocalc) but I haven't looked at the battle side of the AI much as I could never fully fix the pathing

    OK; I as just thinking that, since I didn't see any multipliers for spears that it would be another reason the generals are so strong in autobattle.

    ReluctantSamurai said: how even minor changes in terrain or eliminating sharp turns in roads could enhance AI movement.

    I believe it's all about how small delta t is. When the game was made, PCs weren't as powerful as they are now so delta t is likely quite large. That would make tight turns difficult but taking a very long time to handle more calculations required (the smaller delta t is, the more calculations required for x distance) would not have gone over so well with those playing the games. They could probably have a much smaller delta t now but that would also take a huge effort (new engine?) so a lot of cash. Plus, changes in new versions of a game often do not go over so well.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Autobattles

    Don't know anything about delta T, but I did learn from reading nikolai's testing from 10 years ago, that simple changes to the map can improve AI path finding considerably. It's not that simple, of course, as there are many more factors involved. AI path finding was always fascinating for me...what caused stacks to stall, the "edge-of-the-world" syndrome (as I call it) where a stack gets to a certain spot near the edge of the map and never moves again....

    Look here for the discussion:

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...tuff-%281-5%29
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 12-18-2017 at 02:36.
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  3. #33

    Default Re: Autobattles

    @LordK9
    since I didn't see any multipliers for spears that it would be another reason the generals are so strong in autobattle
    there could be other factors but i haven't specifically tested for it as soldiers x melee attack x hp is close enough for my purposes for now. if the map doesn't drive me nuts again i'll prob test it as it's easy enough to do.

    #
    @LordK9
    the smaller delta t is, the more calculations required for x distance
    @ReluctantSamurai
    Don't know anything about delta T
    yeah, the path finding glitches are a mathematical artifact along those lines.

    specifically the way path finding generally works (i swotted up on this years ago and it's burned into my memory) is by iterating through every possible move to find the optimal one - however as in the delta t example mentioned above if there are thousands of possible move chains per unit..

    [say 1st iteration can be up, down, left or right, so four options and there's a rule about not going back in the chain then the 2nd iteration has three options for each of the original four so that's twelve and then each of those twelve has three options etc - so say each unit was limited to eight moves then the total will be something like 8 to the power of 3 or 3 to the power of 8 or whatever - I don't know exactly but it's a lot]

    ...and potentially thousands of AI units running around then each moving unit can't be allowed infinite iterations to figure out its optimal move as the AI turn would take too long so the path finding is artificially limited in some way and those limits create edge cases where the path finding algorithm is halted before it can find a way round a problem.

    The way extra movement points helps path-finding implies the limit CA uses is MP related e.g. the unit only tests up to it's MP limit or some multiple of it - my guess is something like 150% of MP. Also might explain why slight changes to the map can make it better or worse (if the change somehow changes the number of tiles moved).
    Last edited by nikolai1962; 12-18-2017 at 13:45.
    It's not a map.

  4. #34
    Member Member LordK9's Avatar
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    Default Re: Autobattles

    Fascinating stuff. I haven't played any TW games newer then Rome II and/or Medieval II - if either of you have, is the tracking better or still similarly limited? I think you ( nikolai1962) may have slammed into an old technology barrier and it may not be able to be modded to track better.

  5. #35
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Autobattles

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    And after reading the accounts of players who auto-resolve siege battles, it seems to be the case that the AI ignores fortifications
    That explains why an even battle (in terms of numbers) for me has good odds for them when I will when the battle handily. If a phalanx, I barricade the streets at the best choke points, so my towers waste the enemy before they ever get to me. Even if fighting on the walls as I do with Rome, you can still count on an enemy losing a good 15 percent of their men (to large or epic walls) before they even get any men onto your walls from the siege tower, if they strike at the gate as they usually do.

    I would say always, but if attacking a huge Greco-Roman city from the east, they usually strike for the tower to the right of the gate and to the left, and get out at those towers. Then they march right beneath the gateway in formation without taking it. They lose a lot of men that way. Sometimes they will lose whole units, though usually not. I like it when fighting Rome, sometimes they will form testudo as they are coming under fire from the gateway, and the artillery in the gateway wipes the entire unit out.
    Last edited by Vincent Butler; 12-19-2017 at 08:35.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  6. #36

    Default Re: Autobattles

    Quote Originally Posted by LordK9 View Post
    I think you ( nikolai1962) may have slammed into an old technology barrier and it may not be able to be modded to track better.
    There is an underlying tech barrier for sure but you can significantly improve the path-finding by editing the map to conform to the tech barrier - it just takes a *long* time (the editing is quick but the testing is slow).

    The next problem is when the AI path finding is improved it doesn't help all AI factions equally - it magnifies existing advantages like corner position - so fixing the map creates new balance problems
    It's not a map.

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