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Thread: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    And, following a delay, will apparently move the US Embassy there as well. Source

    The two announcements are expected to be made tomorrow in Washington, DC.

    While there is a certain rational quality to this -- whether we like/approve/agree or not that is where the Israeli government is located -- this latest deft handling of things by The Donald is likely to cause many to be upset -- and not just @Idaho.
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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-muslim-world
    https://twitter.com/KhaledAbuToameh/...00320147791872

    Hamas will have a day of rage, Fatah will sever relations with the United States, Turkey will sever relations with Israel...

    While there is a certain rational quality to this -- whether we like/approve/agree or not that is where the Israeli government is located
    Well, as long as you kiss goodbye to any hopes of a non-violent solution to the Jewish/Palestinian problem... I mean, personally I didn't think there was any hope, but you don't have to accelerate the timetable.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 12-06-2017 at 04:54.
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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-muslim-world
    https://twitter.com/KhaledAbuToameh/...&ICID=ref_fark

    Hamas will have a day of rage, Fatah will sever relations with the United States, Turkey will sever relations with Israel...



    Well, as long as you kiss goodbye to any hopes of a non-violent solution to the Jewish/Palestinian problem... I mean, personally I didn't think there was any hope, but you don't have to accelerate the timetable.

    A 'steely-eyed realpolitik pragmatist' might suggest that doing this could well ignite a huge Israeli-Palestinian conflict in order to give Israel a chance to smash opposition and reorganize things more to their liking at exactly the moment when Islamist Extremist forces are at something of a low ebb following the setbacks experienced by ISIS/ISIL/DASH.

    If anybody thinks anybody in the Trump administration is both that cold-blooded AND that organized, let me know. But I will ask for proof.
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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    A 'steely-eyed realpolitik pragmatist' might suggest that doing this could well ignite a huge Israeli-Palestinian conflict in order to give Israel a chance to smash opposition and reorganize things more to their liking at exactly the moment when Islamist Extremist forces are at something of a low ebb following the setbacks experienced by ISIS/ISIL/DASH.

    If anybody thinks anybody in the Trump administration is both that cold-blooded AND that organized, let me know. But I will ask for proof.
    They might just want a big noise in the corner to occupy the news cycle.

    (And it's not like ISIS was ever preventing Israel from cleansing the West Bank. Israel's neighbors are probably its main concern.)
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    Not a very good idea, embassy is going to be the most wanted target. Arab states are always going to be pissed of just because Israel exists but no need to REALLY force them to be angry, it's begging for trouble and that's dumb.
    Last edited by Fragony; 12-06-2017 at 08:05.

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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    There could be a number of reasons for this; an attempt to make an expected uptick in violence occur at a time of Trump's choosing while america and the israelis are prepared to deal with it, a diplomatic insult in the hopes of alienating the US allies likely to become entangled in the potential Qatar crisis war.

    Hell, considering trump's dedication to psychological warfare this could be a provocation designed to enrage someone in the region to make a mistake and give the US an excuse to put the screws on or kick down the door.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    A 'steely-eyed realpolitik pragmatist' might suggest that doing this could well ignite a huge Israeli-Palestinian conflict in order to give Israel a chance to smash opposition and reorganize things more to their liking at exactly the moment when Islamist Extremist forces are at something of a low ebb following the setbacks experienced by ISIS/ISIL/DASH.

    If anybody thinks anybody in the Trump administration is both that cold-blooded AND that organized, let me know. But I will ask for proof.
    If we were to consider this a possibility, could such a thing be a suggestion of the israelis themselves?
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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    A 'steely-eyed realpolitik pragmatist' might suggest that doing this could well ignite a huge Israeli-Palestinian conflict in order to give Israel a chance to smash opposition and reorganize things more to their liking at exactly the moment when Islamist Extremist forces are at something of a low ebb following the setbacks experienced by ISIS/ISIL/DASH.

    If anybody thinks anybody in the Trump administration is both that cold-blooded AND that organized, let me know. But I will ask for proof.
    If Russia had this level of influence and Putin had done this I'd see it as a cold-blooded plan to get conflicts nice and far away to get all the nutters slaughtered along way from one's own shores.

    Trump probably was just informed he "had" to sign the 6 month waiver... and then of course instantly refused to do so. To "Trump" - "to behave like a 3 year old".

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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    Well Trump was elected to "shake things up"; this will do that.
    It will be interesting to see how America's friends, enemies and frienemies react.
    Apparently anyone consulted warned against it; many not consulted but aware of the idea warned against it; thus the U.S.A. gives it clearest expression of the value of outside advice.
    "Oh but it is just all Trump!"; bs, this has been the wet dream of some sections of Washington for a very long time.
    It could well lead to clarity; what are the Palestinians and their supporters really prepared to do?

    My vote is for a creative solution: ask China to hold Palestine as a Protectorate :p
    Last edited by HopAlongBunny; 12-06-2017 at 12:00.
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    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    There could be a number of reasons for this; an attempt to make an expected uptick in violence occur at a time of Trump's choosing while america and the israelis are prepared to deal with it, a diplomatic insult in the hopes of alienating the US allies likely to become entangled in the potential Qatar crisis war.

    Hell, considering trump's dedication to psychological warfare this could be a provocation designed to enrage someone in the region to make a mistake and give the US an excuse to put the screws on or kick down the door.



    If we were to consider this a possibility, could such a thing be a suggestion of the israelis themselves?



    Jesus Christ man, I was the first to defend Trump, when others considered his elementary vocabulary as a proof of stupidity.

    I thought and still believe that it was just a clever way to appeal to the least educated, but your imagination has gone to the other extreme.

    None will get upset over the Palestinians, apart from the Palestinians themselves, because none really cares about them. It's not a diplomatic move, but only a nice gesture towards Bibi.
    Last edited by Crandar; 12-06-2017 at 13:17.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    None will get upset about the Palestinians, seriously? The Palestinians have been a proxy in a media-war all the time and will remain that. What will happen: massive outrage from western bored rich kids, lots of seemingly spontanious protests in the middle-east (they don't exist) and lots of pallywood. Why ask for that. I like Trump but this is dumb
    Last edited by Fragony; 12-06-2017 at 14:49.

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    Let's just remember that Hillary is the hawk who was about to get people killed.

    This will only bring about Armageddon and we all know that Israel will slaughter all the unbelievers from the north, so there is nothing to worry about.


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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    Christ man, I was the first to defend Trump, when others considered his elementary vocabulary as a proof of stupidity.

    I thought and still believe that it was just a clever way to appeal to the least educated, but your imagination has gone to the other extreme.

    None will get upset over the Palestinians, apart from the Palestinians themselves, because none really cares about them. It's not a diplomatic move, but only a nice gesture towards Bibi.
    The EU chorus is allready wetting itself over the possibility of renewed arabian war, Jordan and Saudi Arabia have issued warnings, turkey has called this a red line for muslims “plunging the region and the world into a fire with no end in sight” and you say to me noone will get upset?

    You need to learn how to insult someone's intelligence without simultaniously showing you have no idea what you are talking about.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 12-06-2017 at 15:26.
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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    Perhaps it is as simple as "American First" - Trump just truly doesn't care if the whole region explodes since that'll mean he can export a lot more military hardware which will help balance the books. Since Fracking, the oil situation isn't such a concern.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    Maybe the hardline christians are a consern to him and his position, never listen to relitypes a question is never a question

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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    You need to learn how to insult someone's intelligence without simultaniously showing you have no idea what you are talking about.
    How did I insult your intelligence? That's the second time you accuse me of insulting you and I have yet to receive a clarification. By the way, I urge you and Fragony to read more carefully what I wrote, especially the word really.

    Caring for the Palestinians is great PR, because the Arab people feel (in a spiritual sense, not when time comes to share their living with Palestinian refugees) very attached to the Palestinians.

    Hence the moral outrage, it just gives you free popularity points, but nobody is going to war for them. You confuse pretext with cause. I don't disagree with Frag, although he missed my point. Pallywood is irrelevant to all these extravagant hypothesis of yours, though, Greyblades.

    Nobody important really cares about the Palestinians, suggesting that Jordan, SA or Turkey (even Iran) will declare war to Israel is as crazy as these doom and gloom predictions in my country about warlike Erdo.

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    Trump simply doesn't care about the fallout. I think @rory_20_uk probably hit it closest on the head.

    Trump is from the "There's No Such Thing as Bad Publicity" school of thought.
    Last edited by Beskar; 12-06-2017 at 17:46.
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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    Well, it's something he promised in his campaign. So did Romney as I recall, but things didn't work out for him.

    Did Bush junior ever promise the same thing? It seems like the thing that Republicans promise to their voters, but in practice would never do because of the shitstorm it would cause...and then there's Trump.

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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Crandar View Post
    Nobody important really cares about the Palestinians, suggesting that Jordan, SA or Turkey (even Iran) will declare war to Israel is as crazy as these doom and gloom predictions in my country about warlike Erdo.
    I'm not really sure Jordan belongs in that list. AFAIK they're the only ones who bothered to give Palestinian refugees citizenship after Israel's creation. Not that they would go to war, but saying that they don't care...

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post
    I'm not really sure Jordan belongs in that list. AFAIK they're the only ones who bothered to give Palestinian refugees citizenship after Israel's creation. Not that they would go to war, but saying that they don't care...
    Where do you think the Palestinians come from? 'Palestina' IS a refugee camp, refugees from Jordan
    Last edited by Fragony; 12-06-2017 at 19:08.

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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Where do you think the Palestinians come from? 'Palestina' IS a refugee camp
    I've heard people say that Palestinians are not a real nation and did not exist before 1948. I'm guessing a 3D printer?

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post
    I've heard people say that Palestinians are not a real nation and did not exist before 1948. I'm guessing a 3D printer?
    That's pretty much true, got any landmarks besides shackles for me, surily they must be there. Oh wait there aren't any, must be raised out collective memory, and all that remained is a refugee-camp
    Last edited by Fragony; 12-06-2017 at 19:27.

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    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post
    I've heard people say that Palestinians are not a real nation and did not exist before 1948. I'm guessing a 3D printer?
    Which is bullshirt front to back. Palestine was created by the British in 1919. By officially reapplying the Roman name for the area. Although even the Turks used the Arab form of Palestine when refering the area, Falestin.
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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by lars573 View Post
    Which is bullshirt front to back. Palestine was created by the British in 1919. By officially reapplying the Roman name for the area. Although even the Turks used the Arab form of Palestine when refering the area, Falestin.
    Well, it's correct in the same sense that (say) 200 years ago the Russian nation did not exist.

    Modern nations are just that: modern. They weren't handed down by God at the beginning of... oooph.
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  24. #24
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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Maybe the hardline christians are a consern to him and his position, never listen to relitypes a question is never a question
    Not really a concern, but the Evangelicals were supportive of Trump and acknowledging Jerusalem as the capital was one of his campaign promises. Many of our Evangelicals are decidedly pro-Israel. So not so much a "concern" as honoring a pledge.

    It was, however, one of those pledges that most of us thought would be gently pushed aside once Trump was really aware of the 'facts on the ground.'
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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Not really a concern, but the Evangelicals were supportive of Trump and acknowledging Jerusalem as the capital was one of his campaign promises. Many of our Evangelicals are decidedly pro-Israel. So not so much a "concern" as honoring a pledge.

    It was, however, one of those pledges that most of us thought would be gently pushed aside once Trump was really aware of the 'facts on the ground.'
    Aren't most of them pro-Rapture?
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Not really a concern, but the Evangelicals were supportive of Trump and acknowledging Jerusalem as the capital was one of his campaign promises. Many of our Evangelicals are decidedly pro-Israel. So not so much a "concern" as honoring a pledge.

    It was, however, one of those pledges that most of us thought would be gently pushed aside once Trump was really aware of the 'facts on the ground.'
    I hope this gently fades away

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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by lars573 View Post
    Which is bullshirt front to back. Palestine was created by the British in 1919. By officially reapplying the Roman name for the area. Although even the Turks used the Arab form of Palestine when refering the area, Falestin.
    Well, (trans)Jordan didn't exist as a sovereign state until 1946 either. And because that's where the Palestinians are from, according to some people, that means Palestinians are extremely profilic breaders! The land was empty of people before the Israeli settlers got there, you see.

    The more conventional argument is that Palestinians were not "a people" in the sense that the Dutch or Canadians are, and that Palestine is just a geographic name. So, the occupants of the land don't deserve self-determination because that right assumes a collective identity.

    I hasten to add that I don't begrudge Israel the right to exist, I just take offense at some of the more hardline, colonialist arguments used to support it.
    Last edited by Kralizec; 12-06-2017 at 23:42.

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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    Another thought: If this goes through, we will have acknowledged the Russian position in Crimea and Ukraine that 'force determines sovereignty'. Should also be pleasing to the usual suspects in Asia.

    Another nail in the coffin of the post-war order.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post
    Well, (trans)Jordan didn't exist as a sovereign state until 1946 either. And because that's where the Palestinians are from, according to some people, that means Palestinians are extremely profilic breaders! The land was empty of people before the Israeli settlers got there, you see.

    The more conventional argument is that Palestinians were not "a people" in the sense that the Dutch or Canadians are, and that Palestine is just a geographic name. So, the occupants of the land don't deserve self-determination because that right assumes a collective entity.

    I hasten to add that I don't begrudge Israel the right to exist, I just take offense at some of the more hardline, colonialist arguments used to support it.
    If we could take some of these arguments to their logical end, then clearly the long-suffering indigenous peoples of the Americas have the right to (peaceful!) ethnic cleansing of the settler-colonial oppressors in their midst.

    Israel exists, but Jews no more "deserve" a home state than Kurds or Tibetans or Tatars, Bretons or Catalans or Saami, or anyone else.

    What they arguably deserve, as arguably do we all, is good governance and robust human rights enforcement.
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  29. #29
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Another thought: If this goes through, we will have acknowledged the Russian position in Crimea and Ukraine that 'force determines sovereignty'. Should also be pleasing to the usual suspects in Asia.

    Another nail in the coffin of the post-war order.

    If we could take some of these arguments to their logical end, then clearly the long-suffering indigenous peoples of the Americas have the right to (peaceful!) ethnic cleansing of the settler-colonial oppressors in their midst.

    Israel exists, but Jews no more "deserve" a home state than Kurds or Tibetans or Tatars, Bretons or Catalans or Saami, or anyone else.

    What they arguably deserve, as arguably do we all, is good governance and robust human rights enforcement.
    One could argue that the latter is a luxury in a middle eastern context. The question is, do we see Israel as a middle eastern country, in which case they are by far the best of the bunch? Or are they a western country, in which case their human rights abuses are a disgrace?

    Either way, the argument Frag pushes, that Palestinians do not exist, is as bad as any other deletions from history. Israel's continued existence does not depend on the erasure of Palestinians from existence. There are any number of terms for this practice, none of them reputable.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Trump likely to acknowledge Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    One could argue that the latter is a luxury in a middle eastern context. The question is, do we see Israel as a middle eastern country, in which case they are by far the best of the bunch? Or are they a western country, in which case their human rights abuses are a disgrace?

    Either way, the argument Frag pushes, that Palestinians do not exist, is as bad as any other deletions from history. Israel's continued existence does not depend on the erasure of Palestinians from existence. There are any number of terms for this practice, none of them reputable.
    I'm not sure it's a useful distinction where the whole region, including Israel, is liable to regress in the coming years.
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    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



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