PESCO EU Defense Pact

[Husar]

As long as it continues to be an additional structure (God knows why another additional structure is required in addition to the existing ones) then sure.

Whilst it is not "fair" that Europe relies so much on the USA for defense at least as things stand Europe is not seen as a competitor / threat (more as a mooch), better that than it starts to become a buffed-up military entity and adds to the complexities in the world. Already Turkey is pushing things to their absolute limits in Syria.

As someone who comes from a nation that still has a lot of nationalists who think it is itill somehow the 19th century empire at its core, surely you could see the advantage of the EU being an empire instead of a puppet, for everyone inside the EU that is....oooh, I see...

[rory_20_uk]

Indeed. The UK seems to be the logical arena when Germany plus errata (let's face it - Germany is the best bit about Europe) and the USA square off against each other. Not fun. I prefer a situation where all are on the same team.

[Pannonian]

Indeed. The UK seems to be the logical arena when Germany plus errata (let's face it - Germany is the best bit about Europe) and the USA square off against each other. Not fun. I prefer a situation where all are on the same team.

Can't we just veto any such plans? Pan-EU plans need to be ratified by every member state, or they don't pass muster.

[rory_20_uk]

Can't we just veto any such plans? Pan-EU plans need to be ratified by every member state, or they don't pass muster.

It is not the legal framework but the intent that is important. I would wish a situation where Europe and North America is working together, and for all its faults NATO is a good framework for this. Structures that could cause things to go in the opposite direction isn't a healthy development.

[Pannonian]

It is not the legal framework but the intent that is important. I would wish a situation where Europe and North America is working together, and for all its faults NATO is a good framework for this. Structures that could cause things to go in the opposite direction isn't a healthy development.

We've been a significant part of brokering compromises in the past. Somehow I don't think our voice is going to be listened to now.

[Gilrandir]

Can't we just veto any such plans? Pan-EU plans need to be ratified by every member state, or they don't pass muster.

UK can't veto anything since it has forfeited its EU membership.

[Husar]

It is not the legal framework but the intent that is important. I would wish a situation where Europe and North America is working together, and for all its faults NATO is a good framework for this. Structures that could cause things to go in the opposite direction isn't a healthy development.

Well, "America first!" just doesn't sound so cooperative and somehow the EU cooperative lost a cooperator who won't stop this any more, lol.

UK can't veto anything since it has forfeited its EU membership.

You really need to work on your sarcasm detection...

[rory_20_uk]

Well, "America first!" just doesn't sound so cooperative and somehow the EU cooperative lost a cooperator who won't stop this any more, lol.

You really need to work on your sarcasm detection...

When the UK was Bush's female dog things were worse - how Tony thought that the USA had any concerns beyond their own is beyond me.

So as the diminished power the UK definitely is, not getting sucked into Europe's plans to be a Grand Power is definitely a good thing. It will either be an empty vessel where some more brass and politicians can semi-retire to and still draw a large salary whilst not upsetting their own national leaders (like the EU parliament) or will try to assert itself and send materiel hither and thither. Either way: have fun! Send a postcard!

[Gilrandir]

You really need to work on your sarcasm detection...

How much would you charge for a private lesson in the field?

[Husar]

How much would you charge for a private lesson in the field?

Flight and lodging of course, if you don't come here, and then maybe 30$ an hour, special friend price, no guarantees for success though.

[Beskar]

When the UK was Bush's female dog things were worse - how Tony thought that the USA had any concerns beyond their own is beyond me.

So as the diminished power the UK definitely is, not getting sucked into Europe's plans to be a Grand Power is definitely a good thing. It will either be an empty vessel where some more brass and politicians can semi-retire to and still draw a large salary whilst not upsetting their own national leaders (like the EU parliament) or will try to assert itself and send materiel hither and thither. Either way: have fun! Send a postcard!

Is it better to be a puppet of a Super Power rather than having a massive influence within one?

[rory_20_uk]

Is it better to be a puppet of a Super Power rather than having a massive influence within one?

Best to be neither.

[rory_20_uk]

And then there's another small change to the EU: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8151516.html.

The catalyst might be the UK leaving... but the interesting point is that this (currently minor) tax will be directly levied by the EU. Clearly required. Clearly a good idea. Clearly good for the environment.

And now the EU has a central bank, diplomatic offices, an armed forces, wants to have its own tax raising powers...

[Seamus Fermanagh]

And then there's another small change to the EU: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8151516.html.

The catalyst might be the UK leaving... but the interesting point is that this (currently minor) tax will be directly levied by the EU. Clearly required. Clearly a good idea. Clearly good for the environment.

And now the EU has a central bank, diplomatic offices, an armed forces, wants to have its own tax raising powers...

Interesting line of thought rory me boyo. Though I am wondering if the catalyst metaphor is the most apt. Could well be more a matter of refining so as to remove impurities. Not casting aspersions thereby, but perhaps hinting that England was never part of Europe in the same way as the other European states.

[Gilrandir]

Flight and lodging of course, if you don't come here, and then maybe 30$ an hour, special friend price, no guarantees for success though.

Would skype lessons be any cheaper? Or was there any sarcasm in the amount and "friend"? I'm getting positively mixed up.

[Husar]

Would skype lessons be any cheaper? Or was there any sarcasm in the amount and "friend"? I'm getting positively mixed up.

No, skype lessons would be the same price and the same clueless teacher with no idea how to teach you on the subject.
As long as your mixup is going positively, I see no reason to do anything about it.

[ConjurerDragon]

Well, "America first!" just doesn't sound so cooperative and somehow the EU cooperative lost a cooperator who won't stop this any more, lol.

America first? Which one? The America first of Woodrow Wilson certainly did get quite involved in WW1.
And the America first commitee that supported US neutrality was not really successfull in keeping the US out of WW2 either.
My guess would be that the US are better than their reputation and would do the right thing in their own time despite "America first" for the umpteeth time.

And don’t forget that US demands to the EU to step up military expenses to 2% like obliged to and get useful on their own were already a thing before Donald became President.

[Gilrandir]

No, skype lessons would be the same price and the same clueless teacher with no idea how to teach you on the subject.
As long as your mixup is going positively, I see no reason to do anything about it.

I see that this clueless teacher is no businessmen. He might have pretended he knew what he was doing and would have got some money until I detected that the teacher was no better than the trainee.

[ConjurerDragon]

And then there's another small change to the EU: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8151516.html.

The catalyst might be the UK leaving... but the interesting point is that this (currently minor) tax will be directly levied by the EU. Clearly required. Clearly a good idea. Clearly good for the environment.

And now the EU has a central bank, diplomatic offices, an armed forces, wants to have its own tax raising powers...

Which is nothing new really.
As a player of the Europa Universalis series of Paradox and being interested a bit in history I present to you the "Common Penny" that the Holy Roman Empire collected to defend it’s borders against the turks and french:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Penny

[rory_20_uk]

Interesting line of thought rory me boyo. Though I am wondering if the catalyst metaphor is the most apt. Could well be more a matter of refining so as to remove impurities. Not casting aspersions thereby, but perhaps hinting that England was never part of Europe in the same way as the other European states.

No need to hint. The UK never has been as involved as everyone else since the 100 years war was lost.

Speaking of impurities, they might want to have a look at Greece, Turkey going for membership and even such stalwarts as Poland are looking more shaky.

[Pannonian]

No need to hint. The UK never has been as involved as everyone else since the 100 years war was lost.

Speaking of impurities, they might want to have a look at Greece, Turkey going for membership and even such stalwarts as Poland are looking more shaky.

We've done as much as any other European power. The main difference is we've not had as much done to us as other European powers. We've not had outside powers intervening (not overmuch anyway) in our internal affairs. We've not had outside powers raiding our coasts and near inland with impunity. We've not had mercenary bands ranging up and down our lands. We've done plenty of that to other European realms though, before and after we became the UK. After we became the UK of course, we've been practically inviolate, whilst intervening aplenty abroad.

[Husar]

America first? Which one? The America first of Woodrow Wilson certainly did get quite involved in WW1.
And the America first commitee that supported US neutrality was not really successfull in keeping the US out of WW2 either.
My guess would be that the US are better than their reputation and would do the right thing in their own time despite "America first" for the umpteeth time.

And don’t forget that US demands to the EU to step up military expenses to 2% like obliged to and get useful on their own were already a thing before Donald became President.

Well, none of the other presidents was such a genius as the current one, so you never know...

I see that this clueless teacher is no businessmen. He might have pretended he knew what he was doing and would have got some money until I detected that the teacher was no better than the trainee.

A daring conclusion, he might have some better business lined up and just left you hanging and proud of it, too.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Well, none of the other presidents was such a genius as the current one, so you never know...

STABLE genius I might add. The perspicacity of a Da Vinci coupled to the steadfastness of a Churchill. I am sure we both sleep just a little bit easier at night now that we know.



And Yes Gil' this is an example.

[Strike For The South]

Why are we still talking about this? Any pact would still rely on American air power, naval supremacy, and nuclear deterrence.

[Gilrandir]

STABLE genius I might add. The perspicacity of a Da Vinci coupled to the steadfastness of a Churchill. I am sure we both sleep just a little bit easier at night now that we know.



And Yes Gil' this is an example.

An example of how to find a way to sleep better?

[spmetla]

Why are we still talking about this? Any pact would still rely on American air power, naval supremacy, and nuclear deterrence.

I think that's why the EU is trying do this apart from NATO, so that they can have a truly independent foreign policy and aren't shackled by our approval or disapproval in the event we want to 'Suez' an action of theirs or at the very least create the illusion of that.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Why are we still talking about this? Any pact would still rely on American air power, naval supremacy, and nuclear deterrence.

Actually, I think the hopes and aspirations of many of the "one Europe" crowd seek an end-state where relying on those very things you note is NOT necessary. How achievable that is is arguable (and I respect your cynicism thereat) but remember that their military power goals would be substantially more limited than the kind of global capability enjoyed by America.