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Thread: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

  1. #31
    Member Member Agent Miles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    Warlords, drug lords, terrorists and "venture capitalists" know exactly what they need to do in Libya. Remember how Hitler could have been easily stopped in 1936, but good people did nothing? Well, it's 1936 in Libya. Perhaps Hitler 2.0 is not a true fear, but innocent Libyans are suffering. They will eventually follow whoever creates authority in the region, because they won't have a choice. I know that morality isn't chic and that arguments like good vs. evil may not interest people in the West whose own families are not in peril, however, fundamentally the situation is exactly that.

    A military force has to occupy at least the major urban areas of Libya. They must be sustained while a Libyan police and army are trained. The former cops and soldiers are probably worthless, so training a new crew will be the better choice. That training has to be from boots on the ground types. We made the mistake of air dropping supplies to the freedom fighters in Syria. Every community adopted a "Militia", but they couldn't defend themselves, although they appreciated the food and medical supplies for their children. Infrastructure must be established where people can find work. Once the cities are safe, the military with the fledgling Libyan troops can start patroling the interior. Eventually, a trained Libyan army/police force can take over and the occupation force relieved.

    I neglected to mention the bombings, arson, assassinations, betrayals, demonstrations, corruption and other minor frustrations that good people suffer to do the right thing, but I'm sure someone else will bring that up.
    Sometimes good people must kill bad people to protect the rest of the people.

  2. #32
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Miles View Post
    Warlords, drug lords, terrorists and "venture capitalists" know exactly what they need to do in Libya. Remember how Hitler could have been easily stopped in 1936, but good people did nothing? Well, it's 1936 in Libya. Perhaps Hitler 2.0 is not a true fear, but innocent Libyans are suffering. They will eventually follow whoever creates authority in the region, because they won't have a choice. I know that morality isn't chic and that arguments like good vs. evil may not interest people in the West whose own families are not in peril, however, fundamentally the situation is exactly that.

    A military force has to occupy at least the major urban areas of Libya. They must be sustained while a Libyan police and army are trained. The former cops and soldiers are probably worthless, so training a new crew will be the better choice. That training has to be from boots on the ground types. We made the mistake of air dropping supplies to the freedom fighters in Syria. Every community adopted a "Militia", but they couldn't defend themselves, although they appreciated the food and medical supplies for their children. Infrastructure must be established where people can find work. Once the cities are safe, the military with the fledgling Libyan troops can start patroling the interior. Eventually, a trained Libyan army/police force can take over and the occupation force relieved.

    I neglected to mention the bombings, arson, assassinations, betrayals, demonstrations, corruption and other minor frustrations that good people suffer to do the right thing, but I'm sure someone else will bring that up.
    When exactly has America with this "Pollyanna" world view managed to make a "failed state" better after they've got involved? Vietnam? Afghanistan? Iraq? Somalia?

    This whole thing appears to be based around the fact that the locals want help, the troops that go in will not do what America troops have acted in every other theater they've been in with ignorance and violence in equal measure - given this is how your paramilitary police treat your own citizens then why would they not, eh?

    And then after building up everything the troops stop taking bribes, taking drugs and working for the warlords and decide that they'd much rather collaborate and all will be fine after the West leaves as soon as humanly possible and their families will not be killed by militants. HILARIOUS!

    Please, just get this plan to work in one of the places you've already gone into rather than peddling the same old same old failed fairy tales into new theatres whilst the others continue to implode.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  3. #33
    Member Member Agent Miles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    "I neglected to mention the bombings, arson, assassinations, betrayals, demonstrations, corruption and other minor frustrations that good people suffer to do the right thing, but I'm sure someone else will bring that up."

    After only 12 minutes! A new record for cynicism.
    Sometimes good people must kill bad people to protect the rest of the people.

  4. #34
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Miles View Post
    "I neglected to mention the bombings, arson, assassinations, betrayals, demonstrations, corruption and other minor frustrations that good people suffer to do the right thing, but I'm sure someone else will bring that up."

    After only 12 minutes! A new record for cynicism.
    Sorry, just moving that to one side as trying to brand as "minor frustrations" is at best naive and at worst trying to fit facts around beliefs. They are central to the whole reason why this is such a bad idea and also why the USA seems to be incapable of learning.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  5. #35
    Member Member Agent Miles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    It's called sarcasm, but I'm quite sure that I needn't point that out to you.
    Sometimes good people must kill bad people to protect the rest of the people.

  6. #36
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    When exactly has America with this "Pollyanna" world view managed to make a "failed state" better after they've got involved? Vietnam? Afghanistan? Iraq? Somalia?
    One could make an argument for the Phillipines. Of course, that did require half a century and we curtailed but never truly eliminated the Moro fanatic issue.

    And @Agent Miles, the kind of nation building you are suggesting takes a minimum of a generation and a half to really alter the course of a culture (37.5 years) because a substantial chunk of those invested in doing things the old way have to literally die off for the change to truly take root. That is a LONG time to station soldiers/educators/constabulary/and the rest of the apparatus of state building and it would not be cheap. Moreover, at least the first few years will also be dealing with an insurgency as well.

    And if you declare the job finished too quickly, you end up with Haiti...which was beginning to thrive under our constabulary, and then we left far short of that 37.5 year mark....
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Miles View Post
    It's called sarcasm, but I'm quite sure that I needn't point that out to you.
    Stick to your strengths. And no, dry wit isn't something Ohio is renowned for.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  8. #38
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    Oh ffs that was funny, the Brit wins

  9. #39
    Member Member Agent Miles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    I wasn't aware that the thread was supposed to be a comedy about people dying.

    Seamus, either good people do the right thing (see this Ohioans sig), or one by one the world's countries slowly slide into hellholes. Unsolicited criticism from unaffected quarters will always spew forth. Many forms of evil are gnawing at civilization. The easy thing to do is not ever the right thing to do. Dare to be part of a solution.
    Sometimes good people must kill bad people to protect the rest of the people.

  10. #40

    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    Who are the good people?

    Who are the evil people?
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  11. #41
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Miles View Post
    I wasn't aware that the thread was supposed to be a comedy about people dying.

    Seamus, either good people do the right thing (see this Ohioans sig), or one by one the world's countries slowly slide into hellholes. Unsolicited criticism from unaffected quarters will always spew forth. Many forms of evil are gnawing at civilization. The easy thing to do is not ever the right thing to do. Dare to be part of a solution.
    Dare to offer one that has any, y'know, detail? We would prefer something based not just based on aspirations and that we'll all be so happy with the result.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  12. #42
    Member Member Agent Miles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    The people that care enough to do something.

    The people who do something without caring.

    Rory which part of the 208 page book on stability operations wasn't detailed enough for you?

    Fun Fact:
    The quote at the beginning of chapter 1 by Colonel Sir William F. Butler is actually a paraphrasing of the quote from Thucydides. I'm sure everyone caught that.
    Last edited by Agent Miles; 01-13-2018 at 01:26.
    Sometimes good people must kill bad people to protect the rest of the people.

  13. #43
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Miles View Post
    The people that care enough to do something.

    The people who do something without caring.

    Rory which part of the 208 page book on stability operations wasn't detailed enough for you?
    Running the risk of repeating myself: Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia and beforehand even Vietnam, Korea. Any other disasters that the USA has waded into, killed loads of the (clearly eeeeevil) locals and then left when reality didn't play fair and follow their lovely plans?

    I don't care about a modern day fairy tale. I would like the USA to actually finish sorting out one mess before trying to do another one half arsed.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  14. #44
    Member Member Agent Miles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    Agreed! We'll do that in Libya. Thanks for caving in like a champion.
    Sometimes good people must kill bad people to protect the rest of the people.

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Miles View Post
    Agreed! We'll do that in Libya. Thanks for caving in like a champion.
    Sorry, I'm used to dealing with more sophisticated intellects. I'll try again.

    With a catalogue of either finished failures and ongoing disasters, resolve these first. Then other thing?

    If that's too tough to grasp I hope that another here can help translate over the IQ gap.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  16. #46
    RIP Tosa, my trolling end now Senior Member Devastatin Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    Prominently muslim nations can only be ruled by theocrats or brutal dictators. Its the only way third century thinking cultures can be somewhat governed.
    RIP Tosa

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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave View Post
    Prominently muslim nations can only be ruled by theocrats or brutal dictators. Its the only way third century thinking cultures can be somewhat governed.
    You're just jealous of G's all-distaff bodyguard.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    I know I am, that's really hot

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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Running the risk of repeating myself: Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia and beforehand even Vietnam, Korea. Any other disasters that the USA has waded into, killed loads of the (clearly eeeeevil) locals and then left when reality didn't play fair and follow their lovely plans?
    South Korea seems to be an exception.
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    South Korea seems to be an exception.
    Except that they're still at war, have a capital in range of the enemy's artillery and the North is a basket case. Hardly an inspiring success.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  21. #51
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Except that they're still at war, have a capital in range of the enemy's artillery and the North is a basket case. Hardly an inspiring success.

    The North has been a basket case for a couple of decades. And? Israel is in similar position. Yet both have thriving economies and somehow manage to survive the presence of disgruntled neighbors.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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  22. #52
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    The North has been a basket case for a couple of decades. And? Israel is in similar position. Yet both have thriving economies and somehow manage to survive the presence of disgruntled neighbors.
    True, but the "security first" mindset among Israelis can be a bit hard core to cope with, and SK's intelligence service does not have much in the way of domestic oversight. The USA has had more leaders assassinated over the years, but none of ours were ever offed by our own CIA director.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  23. #53
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    True, but the "security first" mindset among Israelis can be a bit hard core to cope with, and SK's intelligence service does not have much in the way of domestic oversight.
    Perhaps it is because South Korea is not hemmed by hostile neighbors (as Israel) but directly borders on just one so it has to focus its attention mostly northwards.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    Running the risk of repeating myself: Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia and beforehand even Vietnam, Korea. Any other disasters that the USA has waded into, killed loads of the (clearly eeeeevil) locals and then left when reality didn't play fair and follow their lovely plans?

    I don't care about a modern day fairy tale. I would like the USA to actually finish sorting out one mess before trying to do another one half arsed.
    It's a fair point. All of the above are messes that the US has waded into. Of the ones listed Korea is the only success story. Saying that the US didn't reunite Korea under the leadership of the south equals failure isn't exactly fair, with the PRC and USSR supporting the North overtly that wasn't really possible short of WW3 starting in East Asia. It's actually amazing how much the success of South Korea has happened despite the danger of the North, it's a real shame that a reunification in the 90s couldn't have been effected when the North was at its most vulnerable.

    Other small 'victories' could be Panama, Grenada, Desert Storm (kuwait's infrastructure and security was destroyed too), Kosovo (even though I oppose the creation of that nation), post WW2 Greece, post WW2 West Germany, post WW2 Austria, post WW2 Japan, Micronesia, post Egypt-Israel peace treaty Sinai. With those you can put no shortage of qualifiers or show failures too (Cuba, Chile, Iran, Nicaragua, Mexico several times, Lebanon, and more).

    I certainly don't advocate the US wading into more peace keeping because we all know our government has a very short attention span and in recent history has proven to be completely incompetent at rebuilding nation-states. Not to mention any conflict the US wades into is like adding gasoline to the fire given the current hate the US has incurred for itself throughout the world and especially the middle east. That's why I'd like nations with a direct impact because they are practically neighbors to intervene. The French are my choice because they've been very good as threading the line between useful help and seeing as occupiers in Mali and the Ivory Coast. That they didn't go into Iraq gives them a better moral high ground and even though they started the nato intervention in Libya it's still seen as a US debacle instead.

    Prominently muslim nations can only be ruled by theocrats or brutal dictators. Its the only way third century thinking cultures can be somewhat governed.
    There are a few examples of stable muslim majority nations out there that are not theocracies or dictatorships. Malaysia, Indonesia, Tunisia, Turkey, Bosnia. There are a few that are not democracies but someone liberal (Morocco, Algeria, Kuwait, the gulf States, Syria prior to the civil war, The major point of course is the separation of 'church' and state that needs to occur. Just like any of the abrahamic religions, once the religious leaders start to affect policy repression of all the wrong faiths becomes the easy answer for any problems. Remember it was not so long ago that the Troubles were quite violent in Northern Ireland and throughout Britain. The far right Israelis are as hateful and dangerous as any Islamists and were active zionist terrorists during the British occupation of Palestine. There are pro-life terrorists that kill or injure doctors and women that had abortions in order to save unborn babies in the name of God.

    When society is dangerous people tend to revert to local tribal or micro-nationalist tendencies and become more extreme in the religion as they look to deities to save them in extreme plight. The middle east under the Ottomans was relatively stable and multi faith and ethnic until the 19th century when the rise of nationalism threatened it's cosmopolitan demeanor and it in turn became more repressive and religiously oppressive and conservative.

    The people that care enough to do something.

    The people who do something without caring.

    Rory which part of the 208 page book on stability operations wasn't detailed enough for you?
    Accusing everyone not doing something of not caring isn't fair. Not everyone is in a position to help and as they've point out all our recent efforts to help have had little to nothing to show for. If they don't think that they can do anything to help then it's quite normal for them to be able to care and do nothing.

    The US has all sorts of manuals, pamphlets, and training guidance on Stability Operations and Counter Insurgency. None of them have exactly resulted in us having much success. We unfortunately are not good at all at that type of war. As a nation we are too closed minded and too short sighted to try and understand the problems of other nations in the world which is why our solutions of throwing money and brute force at problems seems to usually not work. MacArthur for all his flaws was good at treading that line in occupied Japan, Patton as well in Germany. Perhaps if Petraeus had been in charge of Centcom in 2001 we'd have done better than General Tommy Franks who had no plans for Afghanistan or Iraq that went beyond toppling the Taliban or Saddam Hussein.

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    Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
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    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by spmetla View Post

    There are a few examples of stable muslim majority nations out there that are not theocracies or dictatorships. Malaysia, Indonesia, Tunisia, Turkey, Bosnia.
    Some people here would question the inclusion of Turkey into the list of non-dictatorships.

    Bosnia isn't the country where Muslims dominate. They account for about 50% of the population. Moreover Bosnia is divided along ethno-confessional lines, so that the three major ethno-confessional groups don't mix up each mostly minding their own affairs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    Turkey isn't all that stable, not all Turks are very happy with the Erdo-Khan, he mostly draws from the lower classes. To Europeans it looks like he's very popular because most Turks here come from it. And many of them won't speak out because of the wolves

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    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    I'm not a fan of Erdogan in the slightest, he probably will be a dictator but as of yet he's just working toward that. Sadly he's taking advantage of the weaknesses of democracy to make himself into a dictator but we can't deny that Turkey was a democracy for quite a while before him. Just as Hungary is a democracy despite the autocratic overtures of Orban.

    As for stable it is relatively so. It's always teetered on the brink between anarchy and stability since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.

    Bosnia isn't the country where Muslims dominate. They account for about 50% of the population. Moreover Bosnia is divided along ethno-confessional lines, so that the three major ethno-confessional groups don't mix up each mostly minding their own affairs.
    Muslims are still the majority there with the Christians split between Catholic and Orthodox making the muslim Bosniaks the majority for most decision making. Given that they had a 10 year civil war between those groups it is a testament that peace can be re-established in similar countries. I know most of the former Yugoslavs I've talked to still have strong hate for their neighbors despite which the region is relatively stable and that's due to NATO, UN, and EU intervention and continued engagement and investment.
    If NATO had just bombed Serbia and then never put forces in to secure Kosovo afterward it would likely still have low level albanian/kosovar-serbian violence at the para-military level if not with the involvement of the Serbian military.
    Last edited by spmetla; 01-09-2018 at 19:50.

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    Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
    Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

  28. #58
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by spmetla View Post
    Muslims are still the majority there with the Christians split between Catholic and Orthodox making the muslim Bosniaks the majority for most decision making.
    The majority is precarious:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogr...#Ethnic_groups

    I don't know much of the process of decision making in Bosnia, but it seems to me that the agreement of the three factions is neccessary which renders numerical dominance nonsignificant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya better w/o Gaddafi or not?

    I blame post colonialism.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


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