Macedonia and Greece vow to solve decades-old name dispute

[spmetla]

Fair enough, I can't pretend to *know* for sure. Can only assume based of what was written then and what happened after, hindsight and all that.

[Fragony]

Nobody knows what happened you are not alone in that

[Crandar]

A great demonstration against any compromise just ended in Thessaloniki, the capital of Greek Macedonia. The participants claim that 500.000 participated, but the police report speaks about 90.000.

The speakers include a known nationalist priest that literally kisses statues, a mathematician that lies of being a university professor and claims of being the most intelligent Greek alive and a former commander-in-chief.

The country's crème de la crème. A group of protestors burned a 19th century building, because they suspected it of housing anarchists.

http://www.kathimerini.gr/944498/art...lonikhs-vinteo

[spmetla]

More protests in Athens over the Macedonia issue:
At least 140,000 Greeks have taken to the streets of Athens in a protest about the decades-long dispute over the name Macedonia.

Many Greeks object to the country of the same name calling itself Macedonia, saying it implies a territorial claim on Greece's northern Macedonia region.

Protesters oppose Greek government proposals on resolving the issue.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42937889

[Seamus Fermanagh]

More protests in Athens over the Macedonia issue:
At least 140,000 Greeks have taken to the streets of Athens in a protest about the decades-long dispute over the name Macedonia.

Many Greeks object to the country of the same name calling itself Macedonia, saying it implies a territorial claim on Greece's northern Macedonia region.

Protesters oppose Greek government proposals on resolving the issue.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42937889

Sadly, the Greek economy is such that more than enough of them have time on their hands to take umbrage over such a thing.

[Crandar]

The speakers claim 1.800.000, but that's probably just their vivid imagination.
In the previous one, the star was a former commander in chief, who became a sensation after a couple of racist and undemocratic slogans (Gypsi-Skopjans, Long live the special forces, the army and the nation and etc.).

Reasonably so, because the rest were outright charlatans. Today, it was Mikis Theodorakis, one of the most famous composers.

Theodorakis, during the Dekemvriana, fought against the German collaborators (and the British..), was exiled in isolated islands and tortured by the authoritarian regime, only to be imprisoned again 30 years after by the colonel's junta.

Today, some shady courtiers pushed his wheelchair, from where he gave a rambling speech, protesting against the leftist enemies of the country and the most dangerous form of fascism, the left one. Below, the crowd, which included (hopefully a minority) dictatorship nostalgists, people who call the partisans as bandits and even Nazis.
Sad!

[Beskar]

The Greeks who oppose any form of 'Macedonia' from the name are the petty ones. Suggestions such as 'New Macedonia'/'North Macedonia'/etc are perfectly valid especially since the country is within the region of Macedonia (though the region is a lot bigger) so denying them any form of name is being selfish. It would be like Ireland taking umbrage over the fact Northern Ireland has 'Ireland' in its name, suggesting it should be called 'Belfast' using the term 'Belfastians' when addressing the people living there, using excuses such as the protestant majorities living there instead of catholic majorities.

[Crandar]

B-b-but muh Argead DNA!

Anyway, apparently my fears were confirmed. The son of a former torturer, whose father spent his time sadistically hurting leftists, and who also expressed his hope to reestablish the "torture islands" for the leftists of 21st century congratulated the composer for his message.
Nice, I hope he and his "courtiers" feel proud of themselves.

It seems that the reeducation campaign of Makronisos finally succeeded!

[Montmorency]

Crandar, do you come to the Org to feel better about your country, or to make us feel better about ours? All I get is that sinking feeling...

[Suraknar]

I just think,

That FYROM should name itself "Republic of Vardar", this way it can forge a true identity for itself and shed the Bulgarian stigma as well as the usurpation of Greek History. Can define it own Slavic Language too, Vardarian.

Everyone would welcome this and no one would dispute it. And then The Republic of Vardar can open itself to the world conduct business join the EU etc etc ..live happy and prosper.

Cheers!

[Sarmatian]

They can't have a highway called Alexander the Great, an airport named Philip II of Macedon and this flag

[Suraknar]

They can't have a highway called Alexander the Great, an airport named Philip II of Macedon and this flag

I do not mind the flag..it looks like a the Sun..Sunny Vardar, from where the light beacons to the world. Whatever makes one happy there :)

But last I checked, nor Phillip II nor Alexander the Great were Vardarians or spoke a Slavic Language or were even Christian. They spoke Greek, they prayed to the Gods of Olympus, and offered Sacrifice in the same rituals as any other Greek form any other Hellenic region.

Cheers!

[Gilrandir]

It would be like Ireland taking umbrage over the fact Northern Ireland has 'Ireland' in its name, suggesting it should be called 'Belfast' using the term 'Belfastians' when addressing the people living there, using excuses such as the protestant majorities living there instead of catholic majorities.

I suggest Ulster and Ulsterians.

I just think,

That FYROM should name itself "Republic of Vardar", this way it can forge a true identity for itself and shed the Bulgarian stigma as well as the usurpation of Greek History. Can define it own Slavic Language too, Vardarian.

Everyone would welcome this and no one would dispute it. And then The Republic of Vardar can open itself to the world conduct business join the EU etc etc ..live happy and prosper.

Cheers!

I like it. They SHOULD do this and they SHOULD do that and EVERYONE (In Greece? - what about themselves?) would welcome this and NO ONE (in Greece? - what about themselves?) would dispute it.

I do not mind the flag..it looks like a the Sun..Sunny Vardar, from where the light beacons to the world. Whatever makes one happy there :)

But last I checked, nor Phillip II nor Alexander the Great were Vardarians or spoke a Slavic Language or were even Christian. They spoke Greek, they prayed to the Gods of Olympus, and offered Sacrifice in the same rituals as any other Greek form any other Hellenic region.

Cheers!

They live in the land called Macedonia. What is the origin and the language of the people who live there NOW is of no importance.

If we listen to you, we would all advocate forbidding Arabs in Egypt to call themselves Egyptians. How can they do it if their language and script aren't what they were under Ramses, they don't pray to Ra and don't erect pyramids! The same with Lybians, Syrians, Romanians. How can we tolerate Normandy - they don't speak Norse any more, how can Norway be so indifferent to that ignominious name theft. And Sussex - I think authorities in Dresden should watch closely those non-Saxon speakers who purloined the glorious name. How can it be "South" if Saxony is the southernest one bearing the name? Do they pray to Wodan in Sussex anyway? Russia also should revert to Muscovy since the center of ancient Rus was Kyiv - the capital of modern Ukraine. And people of the USA don't speak American. And anyway, did Amerigo Vespucci's family get all the royalty for using his name?

The bottom line: let Greeks decide what names should be given to all countries. After that everybody will live a happy and prosperous life. As they do in Greece.

[Beskar]

I suggest Ulster and Ulsterians.

It was a more of a reference to Skopje and Skopjanians.

[Crandar]

Crandar, do you come to the Org to feel better about your country, or to make us feel better about ours? All I get is that sinking feeling...

The rambling general, the pan-sexual priest or the red angel are just comical, great cases to have some laugh at the medieval segment of our society, but the case of Mikis genuinely saddened me, to be honest. It's not nice to see how men deteriorate with age.

They can't have a highway called Alexander the Great, an airport named Philip II of Macedon and this flag

Yeah it sucks. It looks like a badly designed imitation of the Japanese Imperial version. They used to have a much cooler one, but they changed it following the negotiations in the '90s, because apparently the Vergina Sun was copyrighted by Greece.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I just think,

That FYROM should name itself "Republic of Vardar", this way it can forge a true identity for itself and shed the Bulgarian stigma as well as the usurpation of Greek History. Can define it own Slavic Language too, Vardarian.

Everyone would welcome this and no one would dispute it. And then The Republic of Vardar can open itself to the world conduct business join the EU etc etc ..live happy and prosper.

Cheers!

Sidestepping a squabble over historical minutiae in order to move forward? Is that allowed in the Balkans?

[Fragony]

It all kinda makes sense, Greek-tragedy we call it after all. How did we ever ended up here, total fail

[Husar]

I just think,

That FYROM should name itself "Republic of Vardar", this way it can forge a true identity for itself and shed the Bulgarian stigma as well as the usurpation of Greek History. Can define it own Slavic Language too, Vardarian.

Everyone would welcome this and no one would dispute it. And then The Republic of Vardar can open itself to the world conduct business join the EU etc etc ..live happy and prosper.

Cheers!

Sounds a lot like Mordor though, not sure why they would want to sound like a super villain's lair.

Saxony [..wrong order, but..] glorious name

That was before the 3rdR, DDR, NPD and AfD...

[Sarmatian]

Sidestepping a squabble over historical minutiae in order to move forward? Is that allowed in the Balkans?

Absolutely not!

If they come to a sensible solution that pleases both parties, there will be a vote and both nations will be expelled!

[Suraknar]

They live in the land called Macedonia. What is the origin and the language of the people who live there NOW is of no importance.

If we listen to you, we would all advocate forbidding Arabs in Egypt to call themselves Egyptians. How can they do it if their language and script aren't what they were under Ramses, they don't pray to Ra and don't erect pyramids! The same with Lybians, Syrians, Romanians. How can we tolerate Normandy - they don't speak Norse any more, how can Norway be so indifferent to that ignominious name theft. And Sussex - I think authorities in Dresden should watch closely those non-Saxon speakers who purloined the glorious name. How can it be "South" if Saxony is the southernest one bearing the name? Do they pray to Wodan in Sussex anyway? Russia also should revert to Muscovy since the center of ancient Rus was Kyiv - the capital of modern Ukraine. And people of the USA don't speak American. And anyway, did Amerigo Vespucci's family get all the royalty for using his name?

The bottom line: let Greeks decide what names should be given to all countries. After that everybody will live a happy and prosperous life. As they do in Greece.

We all have opinions, I stated mine in this regard.

Each region had an evolution and history. All of the places you mentioned there was transition.

Egypt got Hellenized, then Romanized then Conquered by Arabs in the span of hundreds of years.

Same happened with Lybians and Syrians.

Romanians were Dacians who got Romanized for many hundreds of years a new Identity took place.

Present day people of FYROM have nothing to do with Ancient Macedonia. This is the point. It is NOT part of their History. This is the point.

Macedonians were displaced and replaced in time, today they exist still, they live in Greece.

You want to create a new Nation, fine. But don't steal the history of your neighbors.

In all the places you mentioned there are people who still speak dialects and languages have merged between original culture and new arrived culture.

FYROM's people dont have such a Language it is not a mixture of Bulgarian and Greek. It is clearly a Dialect of Bulgarian. And that says volumes as to the true History of the people there.

Which is why I think a more suitable name would be Republic of Vardar and since the Country and its people exists on the region which was called Vardar 100 years ago.

Much easier than claiming that Slavs evolved from Greeks or that somehow Ancient Macedonians spoke a Slavic language, or whatever other is claimed by Historical Revisionist attempts.

Aristotle was Macedonia, he was Greek and he spoke, wrote and taught in Greek too.

I have nothing against Slavic peoples, this is not where I am coming form. But There is issue when you try to misrepresent History and bigger one when you try to usurp someone else's.

You cannot deny this on Historical, and Archeological grounds.

Saying that FYROM's people are the same as Ancient Macedonia is the same as saying that Russians and Ukranians are same too. Maybe you agree with that?

[Suraknar]

Sounds a lot like Mordor though, not sure why they would want to sound like a super villain's lair.





That was before the 3rdR, DDR, NPD and AfD...

Independently of what Fantasy name it reminds us of. It is actually the name of the region and today also the name of the a River in that region. There is a Football club named Vardar too (Soccer Team for Americans).

It is not an Invented name.

Second of all, it is just a suggestion, the actual name does not matter, the message here is that FYROM can come up with any name that is proper to them without having to usurp one form their neighbors.

I personally think that it sounds Cool.

Cheers!

[Gilrandir]

Romanians were Dacians who got Romanized for many hundreds of years a new Identity took place.

Yet they have nothing to do with Roma nowadays, do they?

Egypt got Hellenized, then Romanized then Conquered by Arabs in the span of hundreds of years.

Same happened with Lybians and Syrians.

Yet they keep the names.

All of the places you mentioned there was transition.

You want to create a new Nation, fine. But don't steal the history of your neighbors.

In all the places you mentioned there are people who still speak dialects and languages have merged between original culture and new arrived culture.

The main blame was of stealing NAMES, not history. But OK, let's consider some more examples of stealing historic names: how can Greece fail to see that there is Alexandria in modern Egypt, where people don't speak Greek, don't pray to Greek gods (by the way people in modern Greece don't either) and are Arabs? Any demonstrations to condemn them? AFAIK, there are two Athens in the USA and Ithaca as well. Any problems with that? I can go on for ever: how can Germany tolerate the name of France? Franks were a Germanic tribe and there is a region in Germany called Frankonia. I suggest renaming France into Former Roman Province of Gaul (FRPOG). I expect Mexico will voice its indigantion at New Mexico and California (since there is a peninsula of the same name in Mexico). And that guy Columbus. I expect Italy (and Israel since he was a jew from Genoa) should forbid any fish caught in the river Columbia, ban all those who graduated from Columbian University and cancel all movie performances featuring films shot by Columbia pictures. The name of the country "Columbia" should be changed into Former Spanish Colony of the North of South America. How can New Zealand be called that way if they don't speak Dutch as they do in Zealand. And probably we will pass in silence the existence of several Guineas - including Bissau, New Guinea, and so on.

The world is full of similar cases, but it seems to bother only Greeks.

Saying that FYROM's people are the same as Ancient Macedonia is the same as saying that Russians and Ukranians are same too. Maybe you agree with that?

It will be an eye-opener, but people of modern Greece aren't the same as Ancient greeks (in appearance, religion and even language - they don't speak Old Greek, do they?).

Dealing with such cases we should look at the present, and the present is a people living in the land called Macedonia. They have a perfect right to call themselves Macedoneans, Northern Macedoneans, or anything they like.

the message here is that FYROM can come up with any name that is proper to them without having to usurp one form their neighbors.

They have come up with one. If the NEIGHBORS don't like it, the problem is with neighbors, isn't it?

[Strike For The South]

Greeces economy is failing, people are unemployed, and fascism is rising. Yet here we are. Just give the continent to the bloody Germans.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Greeces economy is failing, people are unemployed, and fascism is rising. Yet here we are. Just give the continent to the bloody Germans.

lol

[Sarmatian]

Why Germans? They've shown that they only do well when you take away all their options but making cars.

I'd like an option to surrender to Norway. I'd do it in an instant, seriously.

[Gilrandir]

I'd like an option to surrender to Norway. I'd do it in an instant, seriously.

Nah, prices would just rocket.

[Husar]

Why Germans? They've shown that they only do well when you take away all their options but making cars.

I don't think our Carmorra is doing very well right now.

[CrossLOPER]

I don't think our Carmorra is doing very well right now.

????????????

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Commorragh

[Husar]

????????????

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Commorragh

What you linked is probably the goal, but so far they're more down to earth still:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camorra

[Suraknar]

The point is that there are evolutions of Historical significance which happen over time and are accepted as that part of history.

in the Cas eof FYROM it only recently had the opportunity to become a country and it tried to forge an identity which bellongs to its neigbor.

It is not the same thing.

And the logic that "Oh it happens there why not here"..."Oh other lie let me lie".."Oh others steals it is ok for me too"..is flawed and very primitive ethically.

The main blame was of stealing NAMES, not history. But OK, let's consider some more examples of stealing historic names: how can Greece fail to see that there is Alexandria in modern Egypt, where people don't speak Greek, don't pray to Greek gods (by the way people in modern Greece don't either) and are Arabs? Any demonstrations to condemn them?

That is because Egyptians did not steal it. Alexander The great founded Alexandria. Egypt had an Hellenization period, the name passed down history and it became part of its history. I am proud that Egyptians and Greek have shared history in the grand Human Journey.

AFAIK, there are two Athens in the USA and Ithaca as well. Any problems with that? I can go on for ever: how can Germany tolerate the name of France? Franks were a Germanic tribe and there is a region in Germany called Frankonia. I suggest renaming France into Former Roman Province of Gaul (FRPOG). I expect Mexico will voice its indigantion at New Mexico and California (since there is a peninsula of the same name in Mexico).

Not the same thing either. These are Cities and States or Provinces , Regional names, not Countries. It is homage and honor, not usurpation. French people do not Claim German History nevetheless. Americans living in Athens or Ithaka do not Claim Greek Identity and History. They are Americans.

You exaggerate in your examples here.

The world is full of similar cases, but it seems to bother only Greeks.

Yes there are many such cases, but it is false to think that only Greek people are bothered. It bothers whomever is involved. Having said this, again the "They did it why not us" logic here. If others do not feel important to defend their history that is their problem. Greeks do.

It will be an eye-opener, but people of modern Greece aren't the same as Ancient greeks (in appearance, religion and even language - they don't speak Old Greek, do they?).

Really, do French speak Medieval French? Do English Speak Shakesperean or Victorian English? Languages evolve and change every 100 years. In 100 years from now no one will be speaking the same as 100 years ago. Your argument is fallacious and superficial.

And actually I can read still Ancient Greek and have moderate understanding of it as a Modern Greek Speaker. I can understand Byzantine (medieval Greek) even more. The closer to today the More I can understand naturally. Without having to study it.

Of course Greeks or today retain a very strong link to the Ancient Greeks, Biological and cultural, they are our ancestors.. It is only people outside Greece that often try to make a distinction. Inside Greece we laugh at them and their "conclusions".

Dealing with such cases we should look at the present, and the present is a people living in the land called Macedonia. They have a perfect right to call themselves Macedoneans, Northern Macedoneans, or anything they like.

If you think like this everyone has a right to call themselves what they wish. It doe snot make it right nevertheless. And this is the issue. The claim is disputed.

But it seems like the people of FYROM are comming to their senses:

http://www.pappaspost.com/reports-sk...lacate-greece/

http://www.pappaspost.com/fyrom-prim...port-highways/

http://www.pappaspost.com/fyrom-prim...countrys-name/

They have come up with one. If the NEIGHBORS don't like it, the problem is with neighbors, isn't it?

No my friend. If I come to your house and steal your belonging is the problem with you or me? You can say it is with you because you did not protect your belongings. But I will say it is with me because stealing is not a Good thing to do as a sophisticated ethically responsible human being. In Greece, we call that Philotimo.

It all depends on what level of sophistication of Civilization you live. Apparently not very advanced one based on your arguments, but I will apply the benefit of the doubt in favor of a civil discussion and debate.

Cheers!