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Thread: Byzantium

  1. #61
    Member Member General Dogsbody's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    I'm playing as Byzantine on early setting and easy difficulty.

    I followed the suggestions set oout on here.
    In my 1st turn invaded Sicilly.
    sent my emmisary on a mission to kazar
    and built forts almost everywhere.

    My invasion of sicilly went very well, however, as my naptha throwers hit the enemy from the flank, the remnants of their army turned tails and ran away, into the safety of their keep.
    Naples didnt revolt at all, they were on very low taxes and I think the loyalty never went below 103.
    I managed to last another turn seiging the castle until a rather large uprising took place and I was forced to ransom these units. But - because Naples was still loyal - that was where they went.

    Over in the east, my emmisary eached Khazar and managed to bribe a rather large cavalry force. The smaller force in the fort rebelled and were easily smashed by my all horse force. which was good as my general went up a rank.
    I swiftly moved this force south towards the turkish borders.
    As soon as they moved another large group of rebels arrived in Khazar, which I also bribed succesfuly (using most of my funds in the process)
    My inn in Trebizond had produced a rather tidy mercenary force and by turn 6 my troops attacked the turks. they didnt even bother fighting my army and abandoned the province. The same happened on the next turn as I pushed further south. They are now in Syria, and my next turn will be to move against them. However, due to my war efforts, I am running on about 20-30 florins a turn now and obviously my war effort is going to bleed me dry.
    Should I go straight for the Egyptions in Antioch after I have removed the Turks or disband all my mercenaries and build up my economy again and then move against them?
    Oh it sounds jolly simple ..... oh its's jolly deadly old boy

  2. #62

    Default Re: Byzantium

    General Dogsbody

    I think it'd be wise to consolidate what you already have and attempt to revive your economy, assuming you have enough strength after disbanding the most expensive mercenaries then I think consolidation is the way to go.

    Bribery is a good tool for the Byzantines, but don't overuse it, Khazar is a good province to have, but I doubt certainly at the moment it was worth the cost to the treasury. Your main effort should be against the Turks, the Sicilians and the west in general can be an annoyance, but the Turks and then the Egyptians and much more important.

    However it depends how strong the Egyptians are I don't know how many men they have or yourself so can't provide to much detailed advice, but if you have a substantial force capable of holding Antioch after its capture, they it may be well worth the effort. Antioch could cure your immediate financial difficulties and provide you with a straight strong linear frontier, Antioch to Armenia.

    I personally, always trying to avoid overstretching my resources when I have a heavily burdened economy would go for consolidation and a period of say 8-10 years of recovery, before going back on the offensive. The Egyptian army is generally inferior anyway and won't have advanced to greatly, besides knowing the AI the Egyptians will probably launch a few silly attacks on your territory giving you easy opportunities to crush large armies of Egyptians. You could then counter-attack and swallow up Antioch and Tripoli without having cost you more than a few nominal casualties.

    Aetius.

  3. #63
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    Quote Originally Posted by General Dogsbody
    I'm playing as Byzantine on early setting and easy difficulty.
    ...
    Should I go straight for the Egyptions in Antioch after I have removed the Turks or disband all my mercenaries and build up my economy again and then move against them?
    Well, if you Don't attack them Egyptians they most certainly will attack you. I don't remember a single game as Byz where Egypt would leave me alone. Ever.

    Taking Antioch will give you an easily defendable 2 province border with Egypt. Keep the bulk of your forces in Syria + some in Antioch and you'll be secure. You can also take Tripoli and Palestine, but that is not really necessary.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

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  4. #64
    Member Member darsalon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    To be honest I would go for the Egyptians all the way to Egypt when you're ready for it. But that's because I'm a vicious swine. It's all a question of money I find and denying the egyptians a major source of money by taking provinces such as antioch and palestine really does disable them.

    Probably a reiteration of what's been said before but my strategy for the Byz I've found is hit the middle east first and really establish money & trade there first. Got a very good trade network with antioch, palestine and egypt there. In the meantime build up reasonable garrison units in Europe and maybe do a grab of Serbia to build a border between there and Constantinople. I tend to just do a hold of Naples for the time being there partly out of enjoyments sake as the battles with the Sicilians can be quite fun at the early stage.

    Once the middle east conquests are done then relations with Europe are likely to take a nose dive as you've reached critical mass stage. Therefore those border defences in Bulgaria and Serbia will come into play with crusades trying to pile into you most likely. Keep on building the navy up and really start dominating the med as well to build the trade up.

    In the middle east I've tended to find the Spanish beat up the elmos more often than not. Therefore I tend to build Egypt as a major garrison point which the Spanish more often than not will batter against for a while. Another set of grinding battles often takes place here before I then do an amphib assault against somewhere like Tunisia to cut the Spanish armies off from reinforcement.

    My style of play tends to be a little reactive so I tend to play quite attritional long term games but it seems to suit me fine playing with this lot. Borders with other places run only across one two provinces at a time with other factions so defence is easy I find.

    Have finally got MTW working on my machine again so this has whetted my appetite for another go at them. One of my favourite factions as they have so many unique units.
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  5. #65

    Default Re: Byzantium

    I have been playing Byzantines on hard/early, only my second game of MTW VI. The first game I had conquered the world with the English by 1270 on medium, this doing GA and taking it slowly.

    I am in 1215, and have the starting provinces, all of the Turkish and Egyptian ones, Serbia, Sicily, Britain, Ireland, Sweden and Norway. I have large armies in Bulgaria, Serbia and Wessex to deter the Germans and Hungarians who don't like me.

    My economy is booming, 27,000 per a turn. Have 750,000 in the bank with all provinces having top upgrades.

    My main question is what to do with the Mongols when they come? I hear they sometimes appear in Georgia, so I have built a fortress there. The Byzantines have only spearmen to counter the Mongol horses, what is the best policy against them? In my only other game with the English (medium/early) they came with massive armies, over 10,000 I think.

  6. #66
    Flavius Claudius Julianus Member NodachiSam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    The mongols will come with a larger army if you have more men in the provinces in the area I think. They come in 1230 and the battle is in 1231. I guess you'll want to lighten the load on the area and give a strong searout towards Khazaar to send reinforcements. They will still come with 10 stacks or so. Varangian guards are very good against mongol calvary I hear. I hate huge battles though and usually out number and autocalc anything really big. Like over 2 stacks on each side. My computer chugs and those battles take an hour! Anyways... get some varangian guards for sure.
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  7. #67
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    My cheezy advice is to take kazar early, max out the fortress, then stuff your stronghold with vanguards and your best general. Avoid horses in less it's your general and try to make sure he's an army of one.


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  8. #68
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    Yeah, Varangs chop Mongol Heavies into pieces. Just make sure to bring along many-many-MANY Pavise Arbies, because there's nothing worse than losing your elite axe-wielding shock troops to a bunch of mongol archers/horse archers.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

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  9. #69
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    My army for Late Byzantium in XL: 5 Arquebusiers, 5 Armored Spearmen, 2 Kablizatory (whatever, the katanks with bows and AP), and 2 Porno Cav (why are Greek words so difficult to spell: hippopotamus), 1 General, and 1 elite unit behind him as a reserve.

    You may want to increase the accuracy of the Arquebusiers by 5% to .25 or not. This army will do you well in Asia Minor where the hills aren’t too steep and weather is arid but not too hot. If you go into the desert don’t up-armor your spearmen and use Byzantine cavalry and a less armored heavy spear cav with irresistible charge (I think they get Mounted Sergeants in XL)

    Starting in Late it’s pretty easy to assemble this army as you’re already pretty teched up. Afterwards you’ll find that it’s pretty easy to replace your losses as long as you’re careful with your horses. Make sure you take care to run your guns behind your spears if the enemy attacks and use your melee cav to bite the flank of any unit attacking your spears.

    For more info on high tech armies refer to this thread:

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=66695

    and remember to invest in light cannons.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
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  10. #70

    Default Re: Byzantium



    I hope this is in the right thread/ forum - I get very confused by all the posting rules and where I can and can't post as a junior member!

    Anyway, I'm playing as the Byz on my second campaign, and I seem to be running in to trouble. Having merrily crushed the Turks and the Egyptians beneath the iron hooves of my mercs and swept through the Balkans, I decided it would be a bit of a giggle to re-claim Rome for the Eastern empire and sweep on in to France (as every Englishman has a duty to do!). All went well at first, but I now find my army holding western France, while being simultaneously attack by the French, Spanish, Aragonese, Italians, Sicilians and the usual resurgent Papacy. I can take any of them if I concentrate my forces, but obviously that leaves me vulnerable elsewhere and I lose as many provinces as I gain.

    At the same time I'm getting slammed by mass rebellions across the Balkans, Asia Minor and the Middle East, and even in Constantinople itself. I've cut the taxes back to very low in most of these provinces, but they still keep rebelling and as they include all my richest provinces I have lost so much tax revenue I am running in to financial trouble.

    Apart from a scorched-earth retreat from France (which doesn't appeal - No Retreat!), I don't quite know what to do for the best...???

  11. #71

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Well i'm going to go out on a limb here and say its entirely your own fault

    What you have here is a classic example of imperial overstretch, remember what is important, your heartlands, forget France, its an irrelevance if you want to avoid your empire being ravaged by rebellion and invasion then you have to concentrate on consolidation back home. Retreat is your only viable option, you need your troops back east to crush rebellions and settle the provinces down and dissuade any eager enemies from invading.

    If you don't retreat, you'll become bogged down in a meaningless fight over France, which by the time a victor appears will have been ravaged from north to south and make the country worthless. You'll lose thousands of men in the process and your empire will be crippled.

    Withdraw from western France and consolidate, destroy everything you can to make some cash and fight your way home. You can still come out of this with territory in Italy, so you can live to fight another day. Of course a loss of territory can encourage civil war, but its risk you will have to take, if your economy is bankrupt, your armies pinned down fighting rebels and your empire spiralling into annihilation how can you win the game? Forget France and get your armies back to where it matters.

    In future i'd recommend invading Spain from the south after mopping up all of north africa, atleast that way you can limit the number of enemies you have to fight at once and slowly absord one province at a time. Then you could move into France at a time of your choosing.

  12. #72

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Quote Originally Posted by Ripken


    At the same time I'm getting slammed by mass rebellions across the Balkans, Asia Minor and the Middle East, and even in Constantinople itself. I've cut the taxes back to very low in most of these provinces, but they still keep rebelling and as they include all my richest provinces I have lost so much tax revenue I am running in to financial trouble.

    Apart from a scorched-earth retreat from France (which doesn't appeal - No Retreat!), I don't quite know what to do for the best...???
    Here's a few ideas. Keep your king near your important regions. If a province is cut off from the king you'll get huge drops in loyalty (I had a completly muslim province at 200% loyalty (with no troops in the province) drop to 0% just because it was an island province and I had enemy ships blockading my routes), so if the king is playing warlord in France, and if you don't have a way to trace a safe route back to Constantinople, and many of the rebelling provinces, then that will be your biggest problem.

    Next is to spam as many high Valor Spies. By upgrading your brothels up to a Bawdy House, this will allow you to train V2 spies. Spies will boost the loyalty in your provinces by 40%+20%*Valor. In this case, your V2 spies will give the province they are in a 80% boost in loyalty.

    Something which might help you as well is if you can sneak these into your opponent's provinces (Border Forts basically mean instant death), the bonus that they normally give will instead drop the loyalty of your enemies provinces. What will happen is if they go below 100%, they'll have to drop taxes. They will probably have to anyway as they usually set taxes to as high as they go and maintain loyalty.

    These two things just might help you keep your empire together.

    For the future, it is best to avoid war more opponents than you can handle ;) I'd focus on the enemy who has the weakest position, and try to get an auto ceasefire against the stronger one's.

  13. #73

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Thanks for the tips folks

    I have indeed ended up pulling out of western and northern France, while consolidating the overland link to Constantiople and slapping down the Pope and the Italians. The English re-emerged, which was helpful as it keeps the French weak and stops them coming after me. Once I've got all my armies straightened out I'll probably go after Spain instead.

    Good tips about the spies too - I've not dabbled with them too much but I'll certainly give it a go now!

    One question though - under what circumstances does one get an auto ceasefire?

  14. #74
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    For an auto-ceasefire you need to break all contact with the enemy faction - no common land borders, no ships in their coastal waters (I'm not too sure if you have to make sure there are no ships of theirs in your coastal waters, though...)
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  15. #75

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Quote Originally Posted by Ripken
    Thanks for the tips folks

    I have indeed ended up pulling out of western and northern France, while consolidating the overland link to Constantiople and slapping down the Pope and the Italians. The English re-emerged, which was helpful as it keeps the French weak and stops them coming after me. Once I've got all my armies straightened out I'll probably go after Spain instead.

    Good tips about the spies too - I've not dabbled with them too much but I'll certainly give it a go now!

    One question though - under what circumstances does one get an auto ceasefire?
    Over in the Entrance Hall I have a thread called MTW: Subterfuge guide. AT the end of that thread I posted a pre-release pdf of the guide which covers assassins, spies, emissaries, and princess's, so that should hopefully provide useful.

    MTW: Subterfuge Guide

    As to the auto ceasefire, I'm not sure either if their ships in your sea zones will prevent you from getting a ceasefire.

  16. #76
    Anime Nerd Member Kenshin the vega bound's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    I think we need more guides focusing on the late, and high era. The early era is too easy.

  17. #77

    Default Re: Byzantium

    I've read this in the GUIDE:

    "The second most important thing you need to learn is infantry missile units kill mounted missiles with ease, therefore keep your missile cavalry out of range. Infantry missile units (normal bow, crossbow, arbalest and longbow. Not guns or javelins) have both superior range and superior accuracy when compared to the mounted versions. The mounted missile’s horse also provides a much larger target than a single man on foot.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    If you have to take out infantry missile units with missile cavalry then order them to draw their melee weapons and charge.
    Generally your cavalry will have the advantage in a melee – just make sure you aren’t charging particularly weak cavalry into one of the cavalry killing infantry units!"

    I want to know how? You can order Horse Archers, Byzanzine Cav, Jinetes to put aside bows and use their swords, HOW? Is that possible?? I tried everything but I was unsuccesful...


    And one more thing... How to retrain unit? I suppose my unit is damaged in battle, I have 67 of 100 possible Byzantine Infantry, can I have 100 again? Or I'm asking too much?

  18. #78
    Member Member Geezer57's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    Quote Originally Posted by roman10
    "Generally your cavalry will have the advantage in a melee – just make sure you aren’t charging particularly weak cavalry into one of the cavalry killing infantry units!"

    I want to know how? You can order Horse Archers, Byzanzine Cav, Jinetes to put aside bows and use their swords, HOW? Is that possible?? I tried everything but I was unsuccesful...
    Hold down the ALT key, their bow-&-arrow cursor will turn into a sword cursor. Left-click with that cursor active and they will melee attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by roman10
    And one more thing... How to retrain unit? I suppose my unit is damaged in battle, I have 67 of 100 possible Byzantine Infantry, can I have 100 again? Or I'm asking too much?
    You can merge two depleted units of the same type together by dropping one on top of the other. For retraining, you have to be in a province that can build the unit type, open your unit buiding queue (make sure there's an empty slot), highlight the unit you want to retrain, pick up the unit symbol in the bottom info panel (not off the main map) and drop it in the open unit building slot. Next turn, the retrained unit will be available - note that any new recruits will be green (zero valor), unless there's a valor bonus for that province, and the retrained unit's valor will be a mix of the green and veteran troops' valor.

    If you prefer a small elite army, then merging veteran units with high valor is superior. If you just need to refresh your troops, then retraining works OK.
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  19. #79

    Default Byzantium Late GA

    Byzantines, Late, GA
    Since the historic fall of Constantinople marks the end of the Late period in MTW, the Byzantines rightly lack any unusual GA points to gain. I played on Hard and considered the game "settled" at 55 turns, and so far, there hasn't been anything besides Homeland points and Conquest at a 2 province:1 point ratio. This guide is mostly about the opening, defeating challenges specific to Late Byzantine' strategic situation, and then putting the game on track. Afterwards, it should be playable like any other conquest game.


    The Byzantine Military in Late
    Before we continue, I'll go over my opinion on the Byzantine unit roster in Late. Much doom and gloom is about them being obsolete and they're all you'll have now. I think everyone generally understands where they stand compared to other factions' units so I'll try to concentrate on how this specifically applies to the situation starting in Late. In general, many of the units that were once the beatsticks of the army, such as Kataphracts and Byzantine Infantry have become much more defensive.

    -Available with only a bowyer, Trebizond archers are your friend; its strength is its low tech and many regional rivals (including the Hungarians) use large elements of unarmoured or lightly armoured forces. They melee reasonably with many regional enemies, including camels and non-Janissary Turkish hybrid infantry. Virtually any province can build them. They are expensive to maintain, but not especially so to replace.

    -Bulgarian Brigands are more limited in availability than Trebizond archers but they are significantly better overall, being faster, tougher, and cheaper. They are excellent as they tolerate Egyptian deserts and compare well with Turkish hybrids. In defensive battles in the hilly Balkans, you will find that BI and Kataphracts will be your screen, with massed Bulgarians as your arm of decision.

    -Byzantine Infantry are your only infantry now but while their quality is lacking, their price is not. At 200 florins for a hundred men, they are a steal and easily trained in many new provinces. Early on you will find swordsmiths to be a priority – you will need more of these guys because you have nothing else and take take casualties fast. All the morale enhancing tricks must be used to keep them on the field fighting for as long as possible because they will start break against modern heavy units.

    -Byzantine Cavalry are fragile because many infantry can beat them head to head. However, their biggest weakness is tech requirements. Specifically, Nicaea will be too busy producing Kataphracts and Pronoiai to bother. If you need horse archers, it's strategically more viable to produce the vanilla model in a peripheral province.

    -Kataphractoi are no longer the death machines they were in Early and have a much more limited role now. They are poorly suited for chasing skirmishers and Hungarians, Mongols, and Turks all use those heavily. They lack endurance in Egypt, and usually hold up quite poorly to the region's other heavy cavalries. However, because Byzantines lack spears, pikes, or polearms of any kind, Kataphracts will be your only surviveable answer to heavy cavalry. Like BI, they have turned into a more defensive tool; I keep them close to my main body to countercharge cavalry, where their lack of mobility is less an issue, and where their surviveability is more of an asset. In Early, they could just beat up everything for you, but in Late, you simply don't want those knights hitting anything else you have. Under normal unit sizes, they come in batches of forty. This number is affected by the unit size setting, unlike Royal Knight numbers which are not. With higher unit sizes, you gain a small advantage, though some of your neighbours share it.

    -With Varangians unavailable, Pronoiai Allagion are your only real offensive weapon. They still will not hold up to Chivalric or Royal knights, the heaviest Islamic cavalry, Mongol Heavy Horse, or Boyars. Unlike Kataphracts, keep them out of harms way, and use them to attack strictly vulnerable targets.

    -Steppe Cavalry and Steppe Heavy Cavalry are available after you hit Kiev and/or Khazar when you attack Russia. Occasionally the former can be found in the Crimea earlier if the Horde declines to hold it down. SC are an excellent complement to the heavier Byzantine cavalry types as they provide mobility and rout chasing. Steppe Heavies are often off the shelf or nearly so in Kiev and Khazar. They render Byzantine Cavalry entirely obsolete.

    -If you must use Spearmen in numbers, your only answer are basic Spearmen. In practice though, they probably won't last as long against cavalry as even the 100-man BI units.

    -Mercenaries are an option – look for high quality spears such as Chivvies, Saracens, or Italians, pikes, and heavy christian infantry such as halberds or CMAA to fill your most glaring gaps. However, they are often not as necessary as you may think and probably end up being more expensive for the result than simply sacrificing more BI and TA.

    Overall, I would say the Byzantines are not too badly off in terms of troops. Their backbone units remain usable because the fanciest armours and weapons are not as predominant in their region except through Crusaders or Spain in North Africa and they are probably better off than the latter out in the desert anyway. The Hungarians do have access to heavy catholic armour but in general aren't as heavily armoured, and bring along less because they use lots of Jobaggies and mounted archery. And while they're less potent relatively than they were, Byzantine units haven't gotten any more expensive over the centuries either, and remain good on the defensive. However it does mean that I, (and possibly you) would go the extra mile to win on the offense without fighting and goad the enemy into costly defensive battles instead.

    Early on, only Nicaea will be able to train heavy cavalry and cavalry is always expensive. This means the bulk of your army will probably consist of Crossbows, Trebizond Archers and Byzantine Infantry with +0 or +1 morale and +0 to +2 armour – not anyone's idea of top elite quality. I would keep Kataphracts as a shield (everything else will fold if heavy horse can get to them), use Pronoiai to attack, but with care because they are more fragile than anything in their weight class now, and try to bring superior numbers of BI and arrows to bear against the center. Later on, you will have more cavalry and be able to use them more freely. The qualitative superiority of enemy heavy cavalry will often not make up for you having significantly more of it, especially in the more cool and open terrain on the Steppes.

    Defensively, I use Bulgarians or Trebizond archers in enormous numbers (8-12 archery units, think Hero), camp them somewhere tightly and coordinate mass volleys to send as many soft targets routing as possible and then try to overwhelm or beat off anything that gets through with the BI screen. Supporting with 2 arbalest units among their number on Fire At Will can enhance the effect since they won't waste as many arrows and can send smaller, returning groups away once more without you directing a volley. Try to shoot down the general. Many AI attacks, even involving overwhelming reinforcement numbers will break down once the general dies. Up against lots of armour (most commonly the Spanish in North Africa, rarely the Hungarians or Poles), it may be a race between you shooting their general and your screen of BI breaking and your Kataphractoi being utterly destroyed. Firepower warfare will be your key to defense in the Balkans and Asia minor after you've conquered the Turks and set your eyes on Russia.


    Challenges
    The Byzantines have two major challenges between them and a GA victory with points built from Homelands and their fairly favourable 2:1 Conquests ratio.

    -The Turks are as inimical to your survival as you are to theirs. They should always be your first major enemy and you need to get rid of them as quickly as possible. Grant no quarter; none will be asked.

    -The endboss of every Late GA game, the Russians are a threat to your victory as the Turks are to your existence. They may not be at war with you. They may not even border you, but if you don't stop them, nine times out of ten, they will beat you on points.


    Opening
    The Byzantines begin with Constantinople, Nicaea, and Rhodes, and each of them is critical. Nicaea turns out silver armoured troops and heavy cavalry while Constantinople naturally is your breadbasket. Rhodes can replace lost emissaries and is quickly developed to build cheap ships, TA, and BI.

    Assassins are on the loose in the levant from the outset so be prepared to replace and expand your force of emissaries at any time using Rhodes. This also allows you to assign the acumen granting titles at Constantinople more liberally without later having to scraping for title-stripping emissaries to maximize profits.

    Constantinople should begin by upgrading its shipyard to build Gungalleys. There will soon be Baggalas and Caravels in the med and I do not consider Wargalleys to be adequate against either. Baggala is the Arabic word for battlecruiser, and there's simply nothing in the Byzantine arsenal that can catch it and kill it reliably. The AI will willingly let you hit it with a single ship however, and if you do, it's safest if that ship is a Gungalley.

    Rhodes should either get the bowyer or the shipyard. I would take the former, though the latter gives you a headstart in sea control.

    Nicaea is more open-ended. The bow upgrade, the church, and the shipyard are all valid. The church is the safest with its +1 morale, while the shipyard or bow upgrade (for better crossbows) provides options if something goes wrong. While strategically attractive, the 60% farms at 1500 florins is probably not worth it during the opening rush.

    Build peasants in Rhodes for peacekeeping duty and get the other provinces rolling out troops – BI and Pronoiai. Immediately move the existing troops on Rhodes to the mainland and prepare to acquire the surrounding areas


    Nearby Territories and Opening Bribes
    Although your enemy is in the east, start your acquisition in the west. Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria are all prime real estate. The former two are fine money provinces and the latter two form a nice 2-province line. If you're going to siege something, do it to Greece.

    The Turks will soon appear for the first time probably in Anatolia, sieging the castle there but it will keep them occupied a safe five turns. A new band of rebels appears in Trebizond after turn 1 for unknown reasons. This makes a stack total about six, making it unattractive. This is a good thing – we'll get to that later.

    The stack in Bulgaria is worth bribing if only to assure the intact transfer of Bulgaria's troop building facilities. The Master Bowyer there turns out Bulgarians. There is also a six star general in Serbia. If you can bribe him and take Serbia in the process, you will be a much happier emperor also. Serbia-Bulgaria will be your border with variously, the Poles, Hungarians, and the Horde.

    Trebizond and the Turks
    If you hit the Turks soon, Trebizond has a solid chance of remaining in nobody's hands for some time. This means you can attack from Nicaea into Anatolia, and then into Rum forming only a single line of illusionary 1-province borders. Build up troops, then attack as soon as you can. Pick the turn when the sultan is about done with the siege in Anatolia if possible, to check him out of the province and castle without a fight if he doesn't move ou t on the same turn. If he does move, then you can lay siege and then try to beat him decisively on a defensive battle. Either way, do not delay long. As soon as your western border is even faintly settled and certainly within the first few turns either way, attack. The Turks start off with very little construction capacity; less than half of yours initially. Attack before they can build up and rob them of their starting florins. Your target in addition to destroying the Turks, is Rum; take it and you have a second breadbasket and troop production center and you are well on your way.


    Phase Two
    Taking down the Turks early is crucial. Rush them, defeat them decisively. Their opening units consist of their royal bodyguard of 20 Sipahi

    The Eastern Border
    Your Eastern borders are three provinces, which is unfavourable, but unfortunately, unless you have everything from Georgia to Sinai, you're stuck with it, or stuck with worse. To that end, remember that the minimal 3-border line is Anatolia, Rum, and Trebizond. You are not obligated to attack lesser Armenia immediately if the Egyptians control it. At least not until you're ready for war with Egypt or if they hit you. Lesser Armenia is positionally attractive, but largely a superficial province because it is poorly developed at the start.

    That said, let's move on to Trebizond. If Trebizond was taken by the Turks early, you will have attacked it before hitting Rum. Otherwise, unless you snatched it at some point, the Horde is probably about ready to take it themselves. A faction in Trebizond is in striking distance of both Nicaea and Constantinople. This is not acceptable. If the Mongols have it, attack immediately after you're done with the Turks. This is one thing you are obligated to do. However, once you have Trebizond, you can hole up in it and build up a little. The Horde starts as the most powerful militarily but the Russians usually take them apart and there's no point in helping the Russians more than you have to. In Late, Horde heavy horse are usually in relatively short supply, which is good. Oftentimes, the Egyptians will attack the Horde or vice versa, which is also good. If not, hole up nice and tight and concentrate on building up and trade expansion by sea.

    Sea Control
    Your Shipyard will finish soon at Constantinople, and thereafter, you should constantly be pumping out Gungalleys and smaller ships from as many minor shipyards as you can afford while keeping up a defense on your now fairly large and wealthy empire. Trade with the northern mediterranean coast and wall off your shores with heavy ships if you can afford to. Put at least one heavy square in every sea area behind the wall as well because Baggalas will go right through it.

    Egypt
    If (or perhaps 'when') the Egyptians aggress, you will be presented with a naval threat as well as one on land. Of your various neighbours, the Egyptians are probably the richest and eventually the most numerically powerful, supplanting the Horde in this position as its resources are whittled away by Russians. The Egyptians rarely war with the Almohads (who themselves are often slowly picked apart by the Spanish) so they're either hitting you or hitting the Horde. Sometimes, they feel safe enough to do both.

    Egypt is a nice enemy for several reasons. While your borders tend not to be quite as defensible as Hungary's, their attacks are easier to stop because they load down with camels, peasants, and Nubians, which you can easily handle with just BI and TA. Their most dangerous units besides Ghulam Bodyguard are probably Mamluk and Ghulam Cavalry.

    Resist the temptation to commit heavily to a war with Egypt. Your major foe lies North of you, past the Horde. While powerful and inconvenient, the Egyptians are ultimately not a threat to your victory and a powerful Egypt can help you stall Spain indefinitely. Spain is a less enjoyable enemy to fight by far – they have huge stacks and lots of all the things that can make mincemeat out of everything you own at brawling range.

    My strategy is usually to engage in strictly limited war with the Egyptians. Drive them out of Antioch and Syria simultaneously. Syria is a critical province positionally and taking Antioch is a money province for you. Because it faces the Turkish coast, which you control and denying the income from it to the Egyptians is just enough to lighten the threat without turning the whole place into free turf for the advancing Spanish.

    The Western Border
    Serbia-Bulgaria will be your border with variously, the Poles, Hungarians, and the Horde. The Horde is quite weak in the area and may lose it permanently soon to Hungary. Poland is not usually a threat when AI controlled due to its small size keeping it on the defensive against more powerful neighbours but may attack later if Hungary and Germany go to war for example. Half the time if they do though, they're launching corpses across a bridge. If the Italians later take Croatia, make a note of it and bring in armour piercing bows if needed. This is a theoretical possibility, I've never really looked at Italian troop composition in Late campaigns. The Hungarians are the main threat on this border. Try to ally with them and stay out of the way of their allies where possible. However, the hilly terrain on that line is superbly defendable by even minimally supported archers. Keep a more than decent stack in Serbia. The first wave of the first attack will be the most difficult and will probably contain most of the armour that the Hungarians own. My preferred tactic is to sit firmly on a hill and Hero their king with a storm of arrows. This combined with the BI stalling their stuff until you get their monarch can break up the attack sufficiently to send most of the heavily committed Hungarian heavy forces on the field into a rout. If you defeat the first wave of the first attack, your troubles should be over permanently as the Hungarians have many concerns, including Germans, Italians, and the Poles, all of which will have double stacks facing Hungary. Losing the three provinces up to Constantinople are painful but ultimately acceptable also, giving you some strategic depth. I consider this border overall to be as safe as you can expect in MTW.

    General Scrolls
    Constantinople starts off with a slew of scrolls. The richest provinces are Constantinople and Rum, so give your +2 feather scrolls to the managers of those two provinces. You also have many +2 star scrolls if only a few of your good generals weren't also royals! If you bribed the star-eyed boy in Serbia, giving him a new hobby in naval management will shove him to eight. Nearby provinces such as Trebizond, Rum, and Bulgaria provide command bonuses also. If you get a 2-star Kataphractoi or Pronoiai, making him lord of Trebizond and manager of horses will put him to a healthy six. I usually keep my big generals on defensive borders to hold them with as few troops as possible while putting royals and lesser generals on the front lines of attack where they will in any case have overwhelming numbers on their side.

    Crusaders
    The Plague hits in 1348 or so but before then, Crusades remain a military threat. They will usually bypass you but may aim for provinces that you need. Leaving them alone on your eastern frontier is dangerous also since they can be successful ventures and leave stacks of dangerous units on your border. Early on, you may not have a choice in letting them through but the Egyptians will also be better equipped to handle them once they arrive. If one arrives aimed at Trebizond, Rum, or Anatolia, you are probably obligated to repel them or to destroy them the moment they arrive (generally securing an auto-ceasefire). The Plague sets the zeal of most provinces to 0, so this will hamper crusades.

    Russia and the Horde
    The Russians will be gaining points practically immediately. Invading Russia can be a daunting task if the Horde is still in the way. You will then have to fight both the Horde and the Russians and in any case you must finish knocking the Russians out of the game (either effectively or literally) before the third scoring session. Preferably before the second session. However, while they are probably far ahead on points, they aren't necessarily daunting militarily. Initially, I would look at the condition of Georgia. No matter who controls it, if the garrison is fairly weak, it should be safe to bypass it.

    The Russians and the Horde have numerous critical provinces – Khazar, Kiev, Muscovy, Novgorod, Lithuania, and Chernigov.

    Take Khazar and Kiev immediately if you can, attacking across the Black Sea. Concentrate firepower on Kiev during your first attack to get them out without a fight if possible. Beware however, if the Horde controls it and already has nowhere but Crimea to retreat to. If they buy your bluff, it will be a relatively unfavourable bridge battle. I generally don't do more than secure loyalty to Very Low initially. If the Poles attack Kiev and take it, fine, let them siege your 200 while you continue your advance.

    Chernigov is an unimpressive province, but it can hit almost everything in the Steppes so you must control it (if only to prevent Russians from retreating to it) and at least one of the provinces it doesn't border. Sweep them out of it, whoever they are. Pereslavl can usually be bypassed. In the East, sweep them out of Volga Bulgaria (this usually results in a small force left behind to siege/assault the fort) and then lay siege to Muscovy. It doesn't matter if your hold onto it is fragile. Deny them the use of the troop facilities as much as possible. Ultimately, it is probably best to take out the Russians without being forced into a difficult offensive battle. Against the Horde this is not always true since sometimes their generals are their footsoldiers. If that's the case, just screen with kataphracts while you rush down their center.

    Limiting the fighting to a few decisive defensive battles for you would be ideal.

    Concentrate all your resources into reinforcing your fight with Russia and/or the Horde. Don't stop until you have a 2 or 3-province border. Livonia is not strictly necessary. Both times I've played, the Danes had it and I had no trouble with them. It can be used as a pot for the survivors, but if it goes rebel with either faction knocked out, you must take and hold it. Finland is not strictly necessary either. Again, if you knock the Russians out and it's rebel, you must take and hold it (Finland is very hard to hold) to prevent a recursion. You will have time afterwords to go after the provinces you skipped. Generally, if the garrisons are small, they are hesitant to attack and siege occupying forces so they are safe to bypass. These include Pereslavl, Smolensk, and Crimea.

    Settling the excellent Kiev-Lithuania line is preferable, along with a smaller garrison at Novgorod if you swept the Russian or Horde remnants into Finland and/or Livonia. If you sweep in a large stack, organize a force that you know will lose and send it in, pressing autoresolve. Your target is not to wipe them out entirely (unless you absolutely NEED to reset the Russians to 0 points) but to bleed their army down to a manageable size from which they can't recover.


    The Rest
    Once this is done, you should be in good shape. Look at the scoreboard and see if any of the other comps have snowballed large enough to challenge you for points and go after them systematically if there are. The most common culprits are an opportunistic Hungary that has overcome either Germany or Poland, and a Spain that has conquered up to Egypt or Cyrenacea. With Asia Minor and the Steppes under your control however, it ought to be simple to beat your way to victory with them. Even if it's some other dark horse AI that you can't reach that's bothering you, conquering your way to Morocco will certainly assure your victory.

  20. #80
    Anime Nerd Member Kenshin the vega bound's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    Hey thats a good guide Maloncanth.

    I tend to go for Trebizond just for the Trebizond archers valour bonus. Also I tend to train Trebizond archers Instead of Byzantine Infantry.

    I mainly focus on troops that get valour bonuses.

    I think the Byzantine army fights best eastern style instead of a catholic one.

  21. #81
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenshin the vega bound
    I think the Byzantine army fights best eastern style instead of a catholic one.
    Well, In Late they kinda have to. In earlier ages Varangians form a solid backbone making Byzantine army virtually unstoppable; without them, Byz army is simply incapable of fighting in a Western manner.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

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  22. #82

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Well if by Eastern way, you mean fighting by maneuver, it's hard to do that too, because nothing in their indigenous arsenal is particularly mobile either.

  23. #83
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    Quote Originally Posted by Maloncanth
    Well if by Eastern way, you mean fighting by maneuver, it's hard to do that too, because nothing in their indigenous arsenal is particularly mobile either.
    I'm sorry, did you intend to post in the Byzantium thread? There one of the more cav diverse factions, even more so in XL.


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  24. #84

    Default Re: Byzantium

    In Late VI to which I'm referring, they have three types of unique cavalry. One of them though heavy is 'Slow', another is a 'normal' speed but relatively heavily built mounted archer and the final one is a fairly generic one on the feudal knight level. Their unique infantry is also a unit of a hundred men. This means in general, more frontage and more turning radius.

    They may have horse, but it is by no means a particularly maneuverable army. In particular, they lack superheavy horse archers: The Turks and Russians have Sipahis of the Porte and Boyars. They lack "Fast" indigenous units of any kind: Much less such great things as unique fast horse archers like the Turks or Mongols or at least fast rout-chasers like Steppe Cavalry without reaching out and acquiring it. Nor are they particularly suited for desert fighting where winning by maneuver is more an issue of being able to maneuver rather than speed. Both their heavy cavalry are out. Byzantine cavalry are okay but critically lack a charge bonus. BI and TA will do fine, but the former as I said, isn't particularly mobile (especially since it can't sit still nearly as solidly as any contemporary spearmen which Byzantines lack) and the latter are outmatched by Desert archers. And of course, they don't have camels at all.

    Basically, Byzantine unique units tend to throw a bit of extra oomph or solidity about standard units. They have vanilla-class infantry which will last longer engaged due to greater numbers, they have an archer that will give an extra good account in melee, they have more solidly built but slower horse archers and heavy cavalry. They have extra options in terms of horse, sure, but they're strictly no more mobile than the average Catholic faction unless they outnumber the opposition in numbers of horse units and that is a matter of economics and production facilities rather than capability. In Late, the Byzantines start with no more provinces for building heavy cavalry (1) than any other faction and by this point, even the muslims have access to (albeit expensive) options to even better cavalry (Late Ghulam Bodyguards and Sipahi's of the Porte).
    Last edited by Maloncanth; 09-04-2006 at 07:26.

  25. #85
    Anime Nerd Member Kenshin the vega bound's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    I've done really well with all cavalry armys in the late era with the Byzantine's

    I think Byzantine cavalry speed is fine, as normally I use them to run rings round infantry. Also they are still fast enough to distact catholic heavy cavarly. (They often catch up, and destroy my Byzantine cavarlry, but that is normally ok with me, becuase by the time they return to the fight the rest of there army is destoryed.)

    I think its better to replace Byzantine infrantry with Trebizond archers. You often always win the missle arms race. I dont really care if the enemy infrantry is tougher at close range fighting, becuase they are going to be shot to bits.

  26. #86
    Noli Me Tangere Member SCRIBE's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    ah the Byzantines...great guys, but really terrible fighting conditions in the late game.
    They OWN in the early period, still at fighting strength at the high period, but is a crippled warrior in the late period.
    Im pretty sure the Byzantines had more interesting and effective troop types even up until their twilight days. (We'll see in MTW2)
    To win against your enemies as the Eastern Roman Empire, get to the highest level of armour and metalsmith (if the province has it), then you have a fighting chance.
    You must count your blessings as well, the Byzantine Infantry can still put up a fight with the Chivilric types, the Trebs got the missile range on lockdown, and as for the cavalry, their still quite fearsome, but sadly .
    Against the heavily barded types, you can only at the sight of your enemies and hope that you hit them in the right place.
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  27. #87

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Ref my question above, got the situation pretty much sorted - pulled back a bit, trashed Iberia and a re-emergent but weak English left neither them nor the French in a position to bother me. Beat the Horde surprisingly easily too, after the heirless Khan obligingly led the charge across the Kiev bridge and got a Varang's axe in his head. They do seem to lose their expansionist ambitions when they turn in to just another bunch of 'rebels'...

    Not sure I fancy starting on late though - sounds way too hard!

  28. #88

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Rebel Mongols are your signal to start bribing. Horde stacks start from 6,000 which is a real steal considering what they contain. :p

  29. #89

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Yup, I bought what I could, trashed the rest and have now hit the French with my shiny new MHCs!

  30. #90

    Default Re: Byzantium

    If anything the Byzantines in the late period have it to good, by 1320 the empires condition was pushing terminal, it had the chance to remain a small Greek empire around the Aegean, but that was pushing it with the number of enemies it had.

    Anyway, the best i've ever done with the Byzantines in late was to reconquer all of Asia Minor, plus Rum with the exceptions of Georgia (Russians). The islands that had been lost were recovered as was the old western frontier Greece and along the Danube (Bulgaria, Croatia, Wallchia and Serbia) also i'd overran Hungary and the Crimea, my greatest achievement though was to re-establish a presence in Italy, taking Naples and Sicily and Rome fell on the last turn to my armies, just in time.

    I'd had it very hard early on, there was a period when the Italians, Turks, Hungarians, Russians and Egyptians were all at war with me and I very barely held on. The real low point was when I was forced to sacrifice Nicaea, my last territory in Asia, to the Egyptians to ensure Constantinoples survival, after so many desperate defences of Nicaea it was hard to give it up. A couple of important battles in Bulgaria and in Serbia though and I was able to finally after 60 years of endless warfare in the west, knock the Hungarians out of the war. At that same time I dealt the Russians 3 successive defeats during my defence of Crimea which I refused to surrender and was guarded by mostly mercenaries.

    My economy was in ruins though, the army hopelessly overstretched and the Egyptians massing to attack Constantinople, the worst though was that the Italians were still dominating the seas, it wasnt until peace was finally made in 1400 that I could even trade.

    It wasnt until with about 40 turns remaining (around 1410-1415) that I could go on the offensive properly, when I did though with only 1 main army I showed absolutely no quarter. My main tactic was to chase a small Egyptian garrison out of a province, then wait for the massed counter-attack, then i'd rout them from a defensive position, before charging down hill and taking hundreds prisoner. In 1424 I dealt the Turks a deathblow when the old menace was finally destroyed after a hard fight in Armenia.

    By this point the Russians whom I was at peace with now, had drifted south into Georgia and Armenia which I couldnt hold through lack of men so allowed to rebel. With Asia minor back in my hands I turned west and ended once and for all the Hungarian threat by smashing them in Hungary itself and annexing their homeland.

    By 1450 I was sitting pretty and happy that the game was going to end happily, when I decided that the Popes constant scheming against me was provocation enough, I invaded Italy and on the very last turn took Rome itself.

    I was curious though how, if I had had more time the game would have gone, after Italy I had grand schemes of a Justinian type reconquest, but all in all it was a great campaign which really challenged me.

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