Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 75

Thread: How to use Horse Archers

  1. #31
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Posts
    10,415

    Default

    Sorry I missed your 1st request, fBe.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  2. #32

    Default

    Heh, I'd actually PMed Gregoshi but he's been busy; I forgot you were back KukriKhan, or I'd have sent you a CC. Um, oops?
    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  3. #33
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    9,058
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Added the list, thanks Ichi.
    Also added a table of contents and a note about Shogun. From my experience HA in STW and MTW work pretty much the same, except that the units are somewhat more sturdy than a number of their MTW collegues. But I never was proficient with horse archers in STW, so perhaps somebody will not agree with my comment. Feel free to point it out.

    And thank you Kukrikhan for moving the topic



    Looking for a good read? Visit the Library!

  4. #34
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Fayetteville, AR
    Posts
    2,455

    Default

    Something almost too obvious to mention ...

    We've all noted how horse archers should avoid missile duels with foot archers and (usually) charge them instead.

    The opposite applies when opposing handgunners and such types, as a rule. Cav archers can fire from range and cause serious casualties to a hand weapon gunpowder units at very light cost to themselves.

    Most handgunner-types can't hit a guy on a horse at long range. Makes a point about handgunners, doesn't it?

    However, most handgunner-types have decent melee. Mameluke handgunners don't, but that's the only exception.

    ==================

    There are some foot archers you just don't charge unless they're routing or you can attack from behind. Turkish Futuwwas come to mind.

    It's always a good idea to check for valor flags on any foot archer unit you want to melee with HA. Even crossbows will give a nasty fight if they have a couple of valor points and you don't have any.

    Here's a short list of foot archers that any type of HA should respect:

    Almuhavars -- fortunately, these mercenaries are rare.
    Futuwwas -- Turks only.
    Golden Horde Warriors -- Faris, for example, should win if they are not at a valor disadvantage, but it will be costly.
    Christian Handgunners -- Faris with equal valor should win in a tough fight.
    Muslim Hashishin -- Also rare.
    Janissary Infantry -- Turkish only.
    Nizari -- Egyptian only.
    Sherwood Foresters -- Rare.



    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  5. #35

    Default

    I have uploaded Sinan's replays in the PBM space (hope nobody gets upset for doing that), since I don't know where else I can put them. You can find them here

    The file name is TurkCavalryTacticsSP.zip

    All they are is just 3 replays, I'm afraid. I have no idea if there used to be more of them or what not. Enjoy.



    Therapy helps, but screaming obscenities is cheaper.

  6. #36
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Fayetteville, AR
    Posts
    2,455

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (ichi @ June 18 2004,13:32)]Excellent work Ludens.

    Note to all MP players Those Szeks I have stationed out there are just fast - not really very strong - just fast - so don't worry about them plowing into the melee or getting behind you - they are weak

    ichi
    All things are relative. Szeks are strong for HA. Their melee would equal or slightly exceed that of Alan Merc Cav, IMO.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  7. #37
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    9,058
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Sorry for the tardy reply. I expected the topic tracker to warn me if something happened in this thread, but for some reason it didn't.

    Thanks Blodrast, I will try those replays as soon as I get home.

    Doug-Thompson, good point indeed, but this is very dependent on valour, upgrades and the type of HA your using. Turcopoles have trouble with everything stronger than vanilla archers, but Szekely will often put up quite a good fight.
    Looking for a good read? Visit the Library!

  8. #38
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    9,058
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Unfortunatly, those replays are MTW replays and not VI replays. Does anyone know how you can watch MTW replays on VI?

    BTW, I have asked TosaInu if the replays could stay in the PBM space and he had no objections.

    Thank you, TosaInu.



    Looking for a good read? Visit the Library!

  9. #39
    Member Member mcv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Netherland
    Posts
    38

    Default

    I'm in no way an expert on horse archers, but I just discovered a really easy, no micromanagement way of using mounted crossbows in my current late HRE game.

    On defense, I put my entire army way back on a hill or something, and my mounted crossbows as far to the front as possible, in those two forward prongs in your deployment area, se they're close to the enemy and a bit to the side. Just one unit on each side, preferably on a hill.

    Since I want no MM, I leave them on skirmish.

    I target the nearest enemy unit, and then I can basically just leave them alone. Most of the time, the enemy is more focused on my main force in the distance, and simply ignores my unit. Sometimes it sends a unit after it, and my
    unit runs away, shooting at it occasionally if the AI sends infantry.

    I've had battles where my mounted crossbows decimated a general's bodyguard, I've had battles where the AI sent two big infantry units after it, which my unit kept busy while slowly decimating them, although I've also had battles got into an archery duel, which is not so good, and battles where the AI sent a horse archer of his own after mine, keeping two equivalant units out of the battle. Those are situations where you need to interfere and set your horse archers to do something else, but in many cases, this tactic makes horse archers useful without having to put a lot of effort into it. And even if they die, as long as they sufficiently disrupt the opponent's attack, the sacrifice may be worth it.


    mcv.

  10. #40
    For TosaInu and the Org Senior Member The_Emperor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The United Kingdom of Great Britain
    Posts
    4,354

    Default

    For me Horse archers fill a very important role in an army, to harass and decimate the enemy before the main battle begins (or even during the main battle).

    I always hire Mercenary szekely, turcoman horse and other solid horse archer units when playing a Western faction such as the English.

    The best tactic I find is to target the light cavalry first and to thin them out, since fast light Cavalry stand the best chance of catching your Horse archers. This way you ensure that you maintain an advantage in speed and mobility.

    Another extension of this tactic is that it is to lure them out of position...
    If you have heavier cav nearby it is possible to bait the enemy cavalry with your horse archers and get them to pursue you into a waiting trap.

    Other good tagets for Horse archers include, Camels (very susceptable to arrowfire, and a good way of defeating them in the desert), Generals (to soften him up ready to rout him), and all infantry (expect archers of course).

    And lastly even when they have ran out of ammo, good horse archer style units are still good for one last task...

    Mopping up the routing enemy infantry and chasing them off the map.
    "Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it."

  11. #41
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Fayetteville, AR
    Posts
    2,455

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (mcv @ June 27 2004,19:58)]On defense, I put my entire army way back on a hill or something, and my mounted crossbows as far to the front as possible, in those two forward prongs in your deployment area, se they're close to the enemy and a bit to the side. Just one unit on each side, preferably on a hill.
    Absolutely. Putting units far forward is the key to good use of HA. That way, the enemy just about has to march into a trap to get to your main army, and gets shot up all the way there.

    Sometimes, you get a nasty surprise and get chased all the way back to your lines by Royal Knights. Even in that worst case scenario, though, the knights are tired. HA, as a rule, don't get tired as quickly.

    In the best case, the curtain lifts and you are in easy charging distance of a group of archers or something and can wipe them out before they can get off more than a volley or two.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  12. #42

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Ludens @ June 25 2004,11:57)]Unfortunatly, those replays are MTW replays and not VI replays. Does anyone know how you can watch MTW replays on VI?

    BTW, I have asked TosaInu if the replays could stay in the PBM space and he had no objections.

    Thank you, TosaInu.
    heh, that's ok. just rename the files to .vrp instead of the current extension .mrp. It worked for me, although it did get stuck a couple of times, and I had to restart the game, but other than that, they worked fine after renaming.
    Therapy helps, but screaming obscenities is cheaper.

  13. #43
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    9,058
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Blodrast, I just tried that. It worked, although MTW did lock-up at one point. Also, Windows is giving damage reports. Everything seems to be funtioning all right, though.

    EDIT: added extension change trick + a disclaimer



    Looking for a good read? Visit the Library!

  14. #44
    Member Member mcv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Netherland
    Posts
    38

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ June 28 2004,05:26)]For me Horse archers fill a very important role in an army, to harass and decimate the enemy before the main battle begins (or even during the main battle).
    Currently playing Turks, and now I'm really starting to see how amazing horse archers are. When defending, I put my main army far back on a hill, and my horse archers to the front, in order to harass the enemy while he walks up to my main army.

    Switching beteen simple shooting and the occasional charge with my Siraphi of the Porte (and even those light, fast Turcomans can charge weak unit if needed), I just managed to almost wipe out an English crusade with just the horse archers. At least it got seriously disrupted, so bits and pieces arrived piecemeal in range of my main army.

    My only mistake was not paying enough attention to my Siraphis. At some point one got trapped between English peasants and spearmen, and crusader knights were approaching fast. I managed to save the prince, but most of the unit was gone.


    mcv.

  15. #45
    Member Member Spartiate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    On the site of the Battle of the Boyne
    Posts
    422

    Default

    My cheap affordable favourite HA unit has to be the Turcopoles For their incredible speed.Okay so you have to keep an eye on them constantly because if they get caught by anything and i mean anything they are just so much horse meat.In general though they seem to be able to pepper the approaching enemy and wait until they are much closer before wheeling away to reach a safe position and start all over again than other horse archers.My favourite are still the Boyars but the price puts me off.I have a nice little mod that allows the Sipahi of the porte to be trained in 60 men to a unit size and a little bit earlier in the game.Love using them.
    "Go tell the Spartans,stranger passing by that here,obedient to their laws we lie."

  16. #46
    Member Member ah_dut's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    London England
    Posts
    2,292

    Default

    that's a bit cheesy m8, 60 man siphai's are waaaaaaaaaaaay OP

  17. #47
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Cambridge, MA, USA
    Posts
    3,739

    Default

    60 men siphai of the porte? by earlier I assume high? tha's insane

    they no can easily trump boyars.

    I lie turcopoles fine as often they are the only HAs catholics like English or French can build (excluding specialized ones like jinettes)

  18. #48
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    9,058
    Blog Entries
    1

    Arrow

    Updated Ichi's table with the upkeep of various HA. Also changed 'camel warriors' into 'Berber camels'.

    I guess the guide is finished now.
    Looking for a good read? Visit the Library!

  19. #49
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Fayetteville, AR
    Posts
    2,455

    Default

    I looked at Ichi's table in the finished guide. I don't think I ever realized how cheap Golden Horde Horse Archers are to maintain.

    That cost is dirt cheap for a HA. Shame you can't replace losses, though.

    =============

    Also note that mercenary Steppe heavies have a maintenance cost only slightly higher than Byz Cav you own.

    I check my inns every turn, looking for three things: powerful siege weapons, longbows and Steppe Heavy Cavalry.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  20. #50
    Member Member Oleander Ardens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    1,007

    Default

    Same goes for the GHW - hilarious even if they woudn't be one of the best ranged troops out there


    AO
    "Silent enim leges inter arma - For among arms, the laws fall mute"
    Cicero, Pro Milone

  21. #51
    Member Member RollingWave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Republic of China (Taiwan)
    Posts
    352

    Default

    Well against the AI since most of them are too dumb to fight ur charging horse archer until ur acturally hitting them.... charging into futuwwa and nizari is usually quiet good since they have horrible defense and waiting even a split second or 2 and take the full charge while trying to skrimish will usually destroy most of the group before they even start fighting..... personally turcoman foots are also not worth charging into... they have very high defense value... you will not take much loss from them and will probably beat them... but it'll take you a while risking being flanked/mobbed

  22. #52
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Cambridge, MA, USA
    Posts
    3,739

    Default

    that's a good point but pull out immediately as those archers have huge attacks and will eat your HAs quickly so charge and pull out.

  23. #53
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Fayetteville, AR
    Posts
    2,455

    Default

    I've started to use the ALT button when micro-managing HA.

    As everybody knows, holding down the ALT button while issuing a movement command means that the unit will move, then turn to face the same direction it was facing when you started.

    So, if you are micro-managing some HA and enemy units start getting uncomfortably close, find some safe spot to run too and hold down the ALT button when you double-click that spot.

    Your HA will run back and then turn back around to face the enemy. Then the HA will start firing by themselves as soon as something comes within range. It's a small thing, but it does save a little of the intense micromanagement you have to fool with to use these units.

    ========

    By the way, my estimation of Golden Horde HA has risen greatly since I fully realized just how cheap they are to maintain.

    Even vanilla HA cost 1 florin per man in upkeep. GH-HA cost less than that and are one of the best HA out there.

    I bribe the fool out of those suckers now. I'm in a game where I assassinated the khan with Syrian assassins, bribed a bunch of his former troops and left a lot of the Russians provinces in rebellion. A few turns later, the Horde will re-emerge. I'll kill the khan, bribe a bunch of his former troops and leave a lot of Russian provinces in rebellion. Rinse and repeat.



    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  24. #54
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Cambridge, MA, USA
    Posts
    3,739

    Default

    wow, really? I'd assasinate the khan then.

    my emissaries will go nuts

  25. #55
    Member Member ah_dut's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    London England
    Posts
    2,292

    Default

    doug, i tried that, i went bankrupt, i bribed a total of about 15,000 horde troops dismissing all but the HA's. that still left me with 5,000 yes 50000 Ha to maintain, i blitzed all afterwards, but just saying what do i do with 15,000 horde troops. Katank knows the answer blitz the world
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]If you gave me an army that size i'd show you and empire

  26. #56
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Fayetteville, AR
    Posts
    2,455

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (ah_dut @ July 22 2004,13:00)]doug, i tried that, i went bankrupt, i bribed a total of about 15,000 horde troops dismissing all but the HA's. that still left me with 5,000 yes 50000 Ha to maintain,
    Too much of a good thing, sounds like.

    Perhaps I did leave the impression that I'm going to bribe everyone that comes my way. Not so; I'm going to bribe a bunch and, when I need replacements for these troops that I can't build myself, I'm going to kill the khan again, let them go rebel and bribe some
    more.

    There are serious drawbacks. There's the low loyalty of bribed units, for instance.

    =========

    As for upkeep cost, ALL Golden Horde-only troops are a serious bargain.

    Obviously, bribes cost a lot of money. It is perfectly possible to bribe units and get them killed before you recoup your bribe. However, people ought to know the figures and then decide for themselves.

    Golden Horde Warriors have a maintenance cost of 22 florins for a 60-man unit. That works out to the same florin-per-man upkeep cost as PEASANTS for a ranged, disciplined unit that could also probably beat militia sergeants a straight-up melee fight.

    Mongol heavy cavalry have the same support cost as an equal number of Jinettes. This unit can beat Pronoiai Allagion pretty handily.

    Those GH-HA have the same upkeep costs as Bulgar Brigands, Genoese sailors or Turcomon foot.



    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  27. #57
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Cambridge, MA, USA
    Posts
    3,739

    Default

    that is pretty sweet.

    I might assasinate the khan then.

    I don't know about the mongols being that buff now.

    I think I built my current Turkish empire to be godly.

    I have all lands betwen Greece, Bulgaria, Kiev, Lithuania, Navarre, and Aragon.

    I have citadels or better in every province in Khazar and all provinces within two moves away.

    jannisary production in Const. and soon in Bulgaria and Egypt.

    futtuwwa and turcoman production everywhere as well as entire siege trains of catpults in provinces next to khazar.

    khazar also has culv towers from modding.

    I think my bets are on the Turks. did I mention 2.7 million in the bank? I think I might switch to GH when they arrive and see if I can beat the Turks. likely to have half my guys bribed away from me.

  28. #58
    Member Member ah_dut's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    London England
    Posts
    2,292

    Default

    2.7 million florins how da heck do you get that much, before the horde, the best i've done is 5 or 6 million but that's by about 1350, when i draw most games to a close, seriously how do you get that much money?

  29. #59
    Member Member lonewolf371's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    381

    Default

    He's close to the crusader provinces (Antioch and Tripoli), both of them have ridiculously high incomes alone from farming and even better with trade lanes. I'm pretty sure you can get both of them up to a higher maximum yearly income than Venice, Flanders, or Constantinople. Not to mention the Anatolian provinces have fairly decent income as well.

  30. #60
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Cambridge, MA, USA
    Posts
    3,739

    Default

    actually I had 3.3 when the horde arrived.

    I had all of the baltic states in addition Const, Tripoli, and Antioch as well as Egypt

    Cordoba and Portugal were also hauling in decent cash. Ireland was good too but less for trade than for lowering naval costs.

    I also got a few early ransoms so I got to build economy almost nonstop.

    all my trade provinces are more or less at master merchant now. I also have janny production coming online and tons of fortresses and citadels.

    it's amazing how I cannot seem to blow all that cash.

    my revenue is something like 68k.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO