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Thread: Names

  1. #31
    Member Member Csatadi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Names

    The Magyar Christian names are not important because most of the players will not play in that late period. And the Christian names were used seldom in the 11. century yet.

    Forgus: this 'fia' (son of) thing is correct but I am afraid the AI are not able to follow the family tree and will be strange if e.g. Taksony's son get the Farkas fia Zolta (Zolta son of Farkas) name.

  2. #32
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re : Names

    Yeah, that's precisly why I might not use surnames for the Magyar (and maybe for some other faction like the welsh)

  3. #33

    Default Re: Names

    Well, I got RTR 6.0 the other day, and it seems that the faction leader for the Romans "Quintus" doesn't have a surname. Of course, he may have one "behind the scenes", but no surname appears. From each of his sons, a new line of surnames is created - the third generation each have the same surname as their father. I think this was accomplished by making it impossible for Quintus to have children.

    In any case, there must be a discrepency between the surname recognized by the program and the surname that appears in-game. Otherwise, nicknames like "The Wrathful" wouldn't be possible. With this in mind, I think it's possible to write a script so that "son of (father's name)" surnames would work.

  4. #34
    Devout occultist Member Forgus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Names

    This would be nice...

  5. #35

    Default Re: Names

    Kool !
    I saw my name in the List!
    I swear I thought Akos derives from the greak word Achos which mean pain.
    Looks like im wrong.

    "Latiatuk feleim mik vogmuk: poru e humu"

  6. #36

    Default Re: Names

    Im sry i couldnt edit message. I donnu how so i had to double post

    Valamelyikotok tudna nekem adni egy weboldalt amin korai Magyarokrol van informacio!
    Koszi

  7. #37
    Arbeit macht fleisch Member ScionTheWorm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Names

    Quote Originally Posted by MagnosAkos
    Valamelyikotok tudna nekem adni egy weboldalt amin korai Magyarokrol van informacio!
    Koszi
    I'm going to take a guess here...

    "I'm talking magyar and I have a lot of secret information about them"
    Last edited by ScionTheWorm; 09-28-2005 at 00:40.

  8. #38
    Member Member Csatadi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Names

    Quote Originally Posted by MagnosAkos
    Valamelyikotok tudna nekem adni egy weboldalt amin korai Magyarokrol van informacio!
    Koszi
    Yes, I have a lot of infos about the early Magyars.
    And I'm not such mysterious like Scion. Try this: http://www.google.co.hu/
    There are a lot of useful writings on this page.

  9. #39

    Default Re: Names

    Hi, everybody. New in this forum. Sorry for my english. I´m spanish and want to help with some of the history dudes about Spain in your fantastic mod.

    Ok, let´s begin with the names. This is the list you have posted.

    ASTURIA
    =======
    Pelayo/Pelagius
    Favila/Favilac/Fafila
    Alfonso
    Fruela
    Aurelio
    Silo
    Mauregato
    Bermudo/Vermudo/Veremund
    Alfonso
    Ramiro
    Ordoño/Ordono
    ---
    Garcia
    Sancho
    Ferdinand
    Fernando
    Urraca
    - Surnames:
    of Leon
    of Galicia
    of Asturias
    of Navarre
    of Castile
    Aznarez
    Gonzalez
    Fernandez
    Garces
    Sanchez
    - "Cognomina":
    the Usurper
    Deacon
    the Chaste
    the Great
    the Emperor

    All are names of kings and queens of Asturias. It´s quite accurate.
    Note that "Ferdinand" and "Fernando" are the same name, so you can eliminate one of them (if you have chosed the spanish form for the names eliminate "Ferdinand"). The correct name for Favila could be this one or Fafila. I have never heard about "favilac" (german form, culd be?). Same for Bermudo, that could be scribed as B o V form. Veremund is the germanic form.

    New names for your mod

    Males:

    Pedro/Petrus (Father of king Alfonso I)
    Vimara/Vimarano (brother of king Fruela)
    Nepociano/Nepotianus (failed usurper to king Ramiro)
    Hermenegildo/Hermenegild (son of king Mauregato/Mauregatus)
    Rodrigo (yes, as El Cid)
    Bernardo (named "del Carpio" if it can be used as a surname)
    Diego
    Nuño
    Odoario
    Berengario
    Sancho

    Female:

    Caudiosa (wife of mitical Pelayo)
    Froiliuba
    Ermesinda/Bermesinda
    Adosinda
    Munia
    Creusa
    Favinia
    Ozenda
    Nunilona
    Jimena/Ximena
    Paterna
    Urraca
    Cristina
    Thisiena
    Aldonza
    Leodegundia
    Hildegarda

    surnames:

    you can create almost any name putting an "ez" as last syllable of a male nae. i.e Rodriguez, Nuñez, Fernandez, Fruelez, Sanchez, as it means (as in other languages) "son of".

    And
    of Alava
    of Vizcaya
    of Guipuzcoa
    of Bureba
    of Cangas
    of Pravia
    of Oviedo
    of Cantabria

    Late i´ll writen again with more names and facts.

    Keep up the good work. AOVF is a fantastic mod

  10. #40
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Names

    Thanks for the info!
    Under construction...

    "In countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia and Norway, there is no separation of church and state." - HoreTore

  11. #41
    Member Member Csatadi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Names

    I made a new list of Magyar names in which I used the work of Forgus and mine and new research. In this I used only names which have some written source. I could write more but I find it enough in number for you.
    I tryed to present the OLD form of the names, e.g. Ákus instead of Ákos. Especially the women's names are from deduction.
    If you are interested in Magyars in the middle-ages visit this page: http://www.birbin.tar.hu, there are "English articles", too. And e.g. a pronunciation guide to the Magyar language.

    Mogyers
    --------

    MEN
    Acsád
    Adony
    Ajtony
    Ákus
    Álmus
    Apor
    Bánk
    Bátur
    Becse
    Béla
    Berény
    Bogát
    Bojta
    Bókony
    Bors
    Bot
    Botond
    Bökény
    Buda
    Bulcsu
    Csanád
    Csege
    Cseke
    Csepel
    Elmér
    Előd
    Ézelek
    Falicsi
    Farkas
    Gyeicsa
    Hollus
    Huba
    Jutocsa
    Kadocsa
    Kál
    Karád
    Kartal
    Katapán
    Keled
    Kerecsen
    Ketel
    Keve
    Kond
    Kuppány
    Kurszán
    Küzsdég
    Lél
    Levedi
    Livünti
    Makó
    Mikán
    Mike
    Miske
    Móg
    Nyárád
    Obus
    Ócsád
    Ond
    Öden
    Özséb
    Pozsony
    Súr
    Szecsőd
    Szerénd
    Szoárd
    Szolnok
    Taksony
    Tarcal
    Tarkacsu
    Tas
    Teveli
    Tormacsu
    Töhötöm
    Turda
    Vajk
    Vál
    Vata
    Zolta
    Zoltán
    Zombor
    Zsolt


    WOMEN
    Ajánduk
    Ajnácska
    Áldáska
    Arany
    Arencsa
    Arika
    Barót
    Bíbur
    Bogárd
    Bolda
    Buga
    Csente
    Cseperka
    Csepke
    Csikó
    Csillag
    Csuda
    Delin
    Déva
    Emesu
    Emőke
    Enét
    Fehéra
    Gilvád
    Gyöngy
    Hajna
    Havadi
    Heta
    Jóleán
    Karold
    Kecse
    Köncse
    Lelle
    Lente
    Mag
    Manga
    Mikolt
    Nyesta
    Örsi
    Öte
    Rásdi
    Réka
    Sáfély
    Sarolt
    Somocsa
    Szecsőke
    Szépa
    Virág

  12. #42

    Default Re: Names

    Quick question. There are NO áéíóú used in the Irish or Scotish names. Why? Also there is no 'k' or 'y' in the Irish alphabet. I speak fluent Irish and Im not too bad on Irish history. I'd be happy to help where I can if someone wants to get in contact with me.

  13. #43
    Dungalloigh Brehonda Member Ranika's Avatar
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    Default Re: Names

    I'm aware there is no K, and no Y in proper Irish, however, I used some names that are Anglicized (mostly because I was copying a list of names from the late middle ages, when some Anglicized Irish names were used in the Pale, which accounts for some, but not all K names; other K names I selected from Ivernic {elaborated below}). The Y are mostly the same thing, but some names in Desmumu had Y in them because they were modified from Welsh (from when Dyfedd was under the control of the Desmumu, numerous Welsh immigrated, and some Welsh still did even in the late dark ages; trying to represent slightly Gaelicized Welsh names; if they can be particularly rare, it'd be nice, but they can be dropped altogether; it could probably be represented in the same way by just bribing Welsh characters to get a character with a Welsh name). Also, K DOES appear sometimes in Scotland in the dark ages, presumably because of Angles who inhabitted southern Scotland, and introduced the earliest forms of 'Kenneth', modified from Cennad and Cinaed, so some variants, like "Kennad" exist among some early Anglo-Saxon subjects, though it is true that that was a minority. Also, there are some very early names in Ireland with 'K', which are not from the Irish language (they come from Ivernic, likely, which is not a Q-Celtic language, but related to continental Celtic from Belgica; names from Ivernic usually were modified into Irish by changing the K to either /gh/, /c/, or dropping it altogether; the Irish language as we know it today is more descended from Galaecian-Iberian than continental Celtic languages; though, the Galaecians did speak a Celtic language {specifically a form of Q-Celtic, accounting for Gaelic branching out of Q-Celtic}). Ivernic was still spoken by a minority in Munster (where the Irish faction starts) until the tail end of the 800s AD, and Ivernic names still existed. Again, also a minority, and if they could be made very rare, I think it'd be a nice nod to an unusual, often overlooked state of affairs in Ireland (since it's more of a linguists' footnote than any major historical note; much like the existence of a Gaelic-speaking minority in parts of Dyfedd until into the middle ages, accounting for Gaelic influences in Welsh, first introduced when Dyfedd was brought under the control of an Irish-speaking aristocracy).

    More on Ks, for the interetsed; K does not exist in any surviving Celtic language. However, K did exist in the language of Gauls and Belgae; in the Gauls, presumably taken from Greek words (examples like 'kua'; 'strength', or 'kutos'; 'powerful'). The Belgae spoke a dialect of Gallic (presumably, considering their close relations and dealings with them, and similarities of inscriptions from Belgica). The Belgae invaded Ireland before Iberians (who brought the Q-Celtic language to the region; as an aside, Q-Celtic bares a closer resemblance to proto-Celtic, and thus, probably the original Celtic language, than latter Gallic and the like). They settled mainly in the south originally, and were overwhelmed by Gallic and British tribes who settled as well. The more indepedent minded Belgae migrated into western Ireland, overwhelming the natives there with superior weaponry and tactics.

    Then came Iberians. This is recounted in Irish myth as the invasions of Milesus (his name in Irish is literally broken down as 'Spanish Soldier'). They conquered the southwest, and overcame the island through war and cultural strength. This probably recounts, in its own folklore way, the submission of the Celtic tribes to the men from Iberia (themselves actually Celts; these were not 'Iberians', they were Galaecians, who were essentially Hallstatt Celts/demi-Celts with heavy Iberian overtones, evidenced in their clothing and such). This would mean the introduction of these tribes' language (Q-Celtic). However, the Belgae subjects maintained their own language, for quite some time. Ivernic is written down in the post-Christian period, and was the day-to-day language of several parts of western Munster, and occassionally a few kings. It was lost though, helped along by the matter that few real power-centers in Munster spoke Ivernic; additionally, few major players from Munster really spoke it as a first language (at best). Church records in Munster even note that some cheifs were actively trying to stamp out the language, because it was causing problems with keeping certain parts of the population loyal (an indepedent language has historically been impetus for much in rebellion; it gives the sense of two different groups, hence why non-standard languages have historically been pressured out of existence). This language did use the letter K (presumably first adopted from Greek, like it was in the language of the Gauls).

    For those confused about how we know Gauls used K; they did write. It was rare, but they did write inscriptions and epithets. For the curious about ogham, it is not of Irish origin, the first versions of it appear in Iberia. Or, at least, it looks that way, considering nowhere else but Iberia and Ireland used the system (though Iberia's is different, and Ireland didn't actually use it in any pertinent amount until the 3rd century AD). Something irritating about Ivernic is that we know too little about it to use it very much in rebuilding other languages of Celtic origin that employ the letter K. We know it does from a few inscriptions and brief notations. Some things seem to have been the same at one time; such as 'mavi'. Mavi means 'son of'. However, when Gaelic first experienced its first gout of major foreign language influence; that being Latin, during Christian conversion, 'Mavi' became 'Mac' or 'Mc'. However, Ivernic writing maintained 'Mavi', but written in Latin letters instead of ogham (which is, itself, an imitation of Latin letters, but was just used for gravestones and such).

    Mavi (or Maqi, in some cases), of course, exists in Primitive Irish, but out from that, is no longer used. Except in the case of Ivernic speaking regions. Primitive Irish lacks a lot of the distinctive parts of what one can easily recognize as Irish. Old Irish (from the 6th century on) takes on the characteristics we recognize (introduced the letter P, big chunks of consonants due to removing syllables that were not being stressed, completely changing some vowels and consonants, such as VI/QI to C). In the 5th century though, both were being used. Such as in the most common example, the king of Laigin. His name was Mac Caírthinn Uí Enechglaiss, but his grave says Maqi Cairatini avi Inequaglas.

    This is presumably closer to Ivernic, which was, then, still being spoken. My long-winded babbling is coming to an end though; we're getting there. Just hold on. The Irish called the language Iarnnbélrae in the 9th century, recounting it in Sanas Cormaic. However, by that point, no Ivernic speakers still existed (or, at least, no populations spoke it; it is possible that the rare scholar might have taken an interest in the language). St. Bede also makes vague mention of it as a language. The names it produced did use Ks, in place of a few letters used by Irish-speaking Gaels. I was only trying to imitate a potential minority. But, I don't actually recall when the mod is set (and I initially wrote the additional names from Ivernic because I was thinking of names for a pre-Roman Britain/Ireland mod).

    My assertion here does not imply a support of theories of certain loanwords being taken from Ivernic that are present in Irish. I believe most of these supposed loanwords are Brythonic, which is the general concensus, but not totally argued. However, any K influence is invariably drawn from this language. However, the last recorded Ivernic name was that of a chief in 780, which did contain a K (Kian, presumably the Ivernic 'Ceann'; the name means 'Fish'. For modern English speakers, may not sound like a great name, but that was an old style of naming, for naming one after traits, objects, and animals that represented admirable qualities; fish in Celtic societies did hold certain special significance, especially coastal societies). He was mentioned in passing as having been one of a few men who commited suicide in the light of being suspected of conspiring against the king of Munster.

    However, I'm not trying to moot your point, at all, just explaining selections. In fact, if the mod is set after 850, I'd be adverse to using either, and even if it wasn't, with as short a name list as being employed, I'd opt in favor of more common names and spellings.

    As for accents, I don't usually type of a standard keyboard (my own at home, which I don't have here, has accents already present on it; I am horrendous with a computer, if one can't tell), and not certain how to write them on one. ...Not as long-winded as the above.
    Last edited by Ranika; 10-23-2005 at 17:41.
    Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.


  14. #44

    Default Re: Names

    Ranika, did you know that language reserchers actually think that up until the 1400'ds irish, scot, and scabdinavian pople allmost spoke the same language, and could very well have a conversation.

    -Skel-

    Age of vikings and fanatics: Total War

  15. #45
    Dungalloigh Brehonda Member Ranika's Avatar
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    Default Re: Names

    I'm an actual linguist (it's my job, not a hobby), and I have never heard that except from wags, hacks, and the occassional conspiracy theorist. We know a great deal about old Gaelic languages, and they don't look at all like Norse languages. Verbs are conjugated differently, pronunciations are wholely different, dipthongs are substantially more abrupt (less rounded) in Norse (and later in Scottish Gaelic, as it absorbed this trait from Norwegian invaders). Additionally, even during the period of viking invasion, their affect on the Gaelic languages (except Manx) isn't really that profound (based in part by how different they are, and the lack of total immersion of them into one another); it certainly had a clear, definite effect, but it was not nearly so transformative as it could've been.

    The Manx were recorded as speaking both their own language (a Gaelic language, which, at the time, was not unlike Irish), and had a Norwegian aristocracy for a while that spoke a Norse language, after the vikings invaded Mann. They were plainly set apart by language. Manx absorbed the most Nordic influence of all Gaelic languages, and it STILL isn't that similar to Norse, except in the blatant sense (that is, loan words, which are often extremely similar). In all three languages' cases, however, Latin and English had more of an effect (all of them experienced long periods of immersion in English, and all of them adopted aspects of Latin when Christianized). Early and Old Irish are not some mystery; we know what they looked like and how they were spoken (the sheer amount of literature written in the languages is staggering; Irish monks copied innumerable texts, mainly in Irish and Greek at first, then started using more Latin in the middle ages).

    There are far too many differences between Old Irish and Old Norse (specifically western Norse) to think that they were that closely related. That all said, there was a Hiberno-Norse trade cant (a series of simple phrases and words) that was used by merchants in the region. It was not a regular language, and was just used to give the Norse and Gaels a bit of ease in trading. Conversely, the same cant fell out of use in the late 1300s or early 1400s, but it could hardly be considered a language (Rohn de Vella briefly mentions it in a dictionary of Britain, and notes that it seems to have had less than 300 words).

    The assertation that they spoke the same, or near the same language is ludicrous; have you ever read anything in old Irish and compared it with old Norse? Consider some other problems with this theory; in Ireland, Norse lords had to learn Irish to effectively administrate. The Gaelic population had a rather heavy aversion to speaking Norse a lot of the time (it was considered the language of pagans for quite a while), and aside from that, it was difficult to learn. On the other side of things, the Norse had trouble learning Irish. There are numerous references to the horrendous butcher of the language by non-native speakers (which shouldn't be that unusual; the Gaelic languages are very complicated to learn, often, for non-native speakers, unless they have a pre-existing relation with the language and a basic understanding of it). If their languages were so similar, why did they trouble learning eachothers, and why did they even have to learn them? There were occassional Scottish chiefs in Ireland and vice versa in the period, and niether of them had any reported trouble administrating due to their language; their languages were genuinely very similar.

    That all said; some similarities do exist. But those are generally pretty old (like the name of 'Loki' is clearly related to 'Lugh'; Loki used to mean 'The Blazing One', and Lugos (from Gaul) was 'The Shining One'). Most of the similarities far predate the period, and aren't really that intense. During and after the period, there are clear loan words and some additions to the language, emergence of a few dialects, etc., but that's entirely different. In Ireland, Scotland, and Mann, though, there were Norse-speaking minorities for a few centuries, but they all disappeared during the high/late middle ages, absorbed into the Gaelic-speaking populations. The most basic refutation is that Gaelic languages are Celtic in origin, and Scandinavian languages are Germanic, and the two families of languages are extremely different.
    Last edited by Ranika; 10-24-2005 at 06:17.
    Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.


  16. #46
    Devout occultist Member Forgus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Names

    Quote Originally Posted by MagnosAkos

    "Latiatuk feleim mik vogmuk: poru e humu"
    actually: Latiatok feleim zumtuchel, mic wogmuc. Isa pur es homu wogmuk. ... Isa pur es
    homu wogmuc, es cealtsatoc Uromuchoz harmul: kyrie eleison.

    Just for the sake of preciosity

  17. #47
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re : Names

    Csatadi, Nacheras, if you have some more names, just post them. The more is the better
    If you have ideas for Asturian or Magyar specifics traits or ancillaries, we'll gladly use them aswell :)

  18. #48
    Member Member Csatadi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Names

    Two important Magyar ancillaries are also on the forum, the Táltos and the Regös.
    Maybe the Falconer would be good. In Magyar it is called 'Solymár' but English is better in this case I think.
    The benefit can be some influence or line of sight instead of Pet Hunting Dog.
    The barbarian ancillaries are good in general. The regös takes the role of the bard, the táltos is the priest. The pet hunting dog isn't such good the Falconer may get it's role.

  19. #49

    Default Re: Names

    Hi again.

    I put on more names, with ist first word in spanish and the second in latin (if hispano-roman name) or gemanic (if gothic) if known. All are real and documented names.

    male

    Adolfo/Dolfo/Dolfus/ Astolfo (german)
    Alfonso/ Adefonsus (latin)/ Athalfuns (goth)
    Aloisio/ Aloitus (latin)/ Alois (france-german)
    Ansuro
    Arduga/Ardega/Arduca (it is gothic but I don´t know its german form)
    Arias
    Armonio/ Harmonius (latin)
    Bellido/ Bellidus
    Cervello/ Servilius (latin)
    Cristóforo/ Christoforus
    Christuevalo- Cristobal
    Dulcido/ Dulcidus (latin)
    Eita (gothic)
    Félix/ Felix (very popular in Spain those days)
    Flacencio/ Flacencius (latin)
    Froila/Fruela
    Gemeno/Gimeno/ Ximeno (it is a local pre-roman name)
    Juan/ Iohannes (greek-latin)
    Muño/ Monnio (latin)
    Munito / Monnitus
    Severo (Severus)
    Tello/ Tellus
    Teodulfo/ Teodulfus (latin)/ Teodulph (german)
    Valero/ Valerius (latin)
    Vicencio/ Vincentius (latin)
    Zamma (unknowed origin)
    Zonio (unknowed origin)


    female

    Argilo
    Ermesinda
    Icka (germanic, I think)

    I´ve read, too, that surnames were very unusual before XI century, and the termination -az were more popular than -ez, that is laterly.

    If you are interested in create Navarrese (around 860) or catalonian (around 890) as emerging factions, I can provide you of typical local names.

    For traits and ancillaires, and more names (specially of females, that are hard to find) I´ll will wrote later. Now I´m at job, and my boss is looking at me nearly!

  20. #50
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re : Names

    Nacheras, would these name fits for the mod (for the Spanish faction) ?
    http://www.gaminggeeks.org/Resources...eval/Goths.htm
    http://www.geocities.com/mariamnephi.../visigoth.html
    Here's a list of Basque names we'll be using, if you have more ideas, feel free to share (even for catalonian names)
    ¬++++++Basque Names
    ¬++++Men
    {Antso} Antso
    {Eneko} Eneko
    {Fortun} Fortun
    {Garcia} Garcia
    {Gartzia} Gartzia
    {Sancho} Sancho
    ¬++++Surnames
    {Arista} Arista
    {Darditia} Darditia
    {Garces} Garces
    {GartziaI} Gartzia
    {Handia} Handia
    {Iniguez} Iñiguez
    {Penalengoa} Peñalengoa
    {Santxez} Santxez
    ¬++++Women
    {Aldoncia} Aldoncia
    {Anderazo} Anderazo
    {Belascuza} Belascuza
    {Belasquita} Belasquita
    {Cinara} Çinara
    {Constanza} Constanza
    {Domeca} Domeca
    {Domicussa} Domicussa
    {Elvira} Elvira
    {Emazteona} Emazteona
    {Iuxta} Iuxta
    {Jurdana} Jurdana
    {Justa} Justa
    {Leguntia} Leguntia
    {Maria} María
    {Mencia} Mencia
    {Oneca} Oneca
    {Ortissa} Ortissa
    {Sancia} Sancia
    {Sancha} Sancha
    {Toda} Toda
    {Urraca} Urraca
    {Yenega} Yenega
    {Zianna} Zianna
    Last edited by Meneldil; 11-02-2005 at 11:38.

  21. #51

    Default Re: Names

    Meneldil: both links you posted are related on gothic names. It´s quite problematic, due to the fact that the kingdom of Asturias does not exactly inherit the spanish gothic kingdom.
    in my opinion is better to use only histroic names, because in Asturias kingdom were used only a few of gothic names, and also other roman or pre-roman names. If you are lacked of name you can use gothic names, but not sistematically, in my opinion.

    Good account of basque names you fit.
    I posted some more and more catalonian and aragonese names (sometimes you can use the same of asturian names).

    Basque (kingdom of Navarra) male names

    Ximeno/Gemeno
    Enneko/ Iñaki
    Gonzalo
    Rodrigo/Ruy
    Bela
    Sigerici/ Geriz
    Fortun/ Fortunio
    Garcia
    Sancho


    Hispanic Mark (catalonian and aragonese) male names

    Bellon
    Borrell/ Borrelius
    Sunifredo/Sunifred
    Humfredo/Humfred
    Oliva
    Vifredo/ Wilfred (named as surname "el Velloso", the pilous)
    Mirón/ Miro
    Armengol
    Sunyer/Suñer
    Rodulfo/ Rodulf (german form)
    Aznar
    Galindo
    Ansur
    Guitart/ Witard
    Elias
    Arifredo/ Arifred
    Cesario
    Ferriol/ Ferriolus
    Gilabert
    Oleguer
    Robert
    Pere/Pedro / Petrus
    Bertran/Beltrán/ Bertrand
    Mascaró/ Mascarone
    Berenguer
    Raimon/Raymond
    Arnau/ Arnaldo
    Ponç or Pns or Ponce (it´s a latin name derived from Poncius)
    Martin/ martino
    Vicenc/ Vincentius
    Magier (not Magyar )
    Geral/ Gerallo
    Ramiro/ radomir
    Vida
    Hug/ Hugo
    Porcel
    Bivas
    Guillem/ german Wilhelm
    Mir
    Esteve (Stepehen)

    Hispanic Mark female names

    Emon
    Cixilona
    Richildis
    Maria
    Ermisenda
    Ahalaez


    Castilian-asturian-leonese male name

    Veila
    Ansur
    Melendo or Menendo
    Fortun/ Fortunio
    Garcia
    Sancho
    Alvar
    Johannes
    Pedro/ Petrus
    Julianus
    Vida
    Manrique
    Raimundo/Raymond
    Velasco
    Antín or Antón
    Pascual
    Belaio (another form of Pelayo-Pelagius)
    Mamés
    Lope
    Miguel (late, about 1100 AD)/ Michael

    This from now.
    Later I´ll try to post more names.

  22. #52
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re : Names

    Thanks for the help :)

  23. #53

    Default Re: Names

    More names for you.

    Asturian male names

    Teodomir
    Casio/ Casius
    Lope
    Adanino
    Odoario
    Gatón
    Sarracino
    Fortis
    Lucas (Luke)
    Gomez
    Beato/ Beatus
    Eterio/ Heterius

    Asturian female names

    Nuña/ Nunia


    Hispanic Mark male names

    Bera
    Rampón
    Alerán
    Angelino
    Sabarino
    Viliesindo/ Wilesind

    Hispanic Mark female names

    Petronila


    Let´s go with Al-Andalus names

    Emires and Caliphes of Al-Andalus

    Tarik (berber)
    Muza ben Nusair
    Abd-Al-Aziz ben Muza
    Ayub ben Habib
    Al-Horr
    Al-Sama ben Malik
    Abd-ar-Rahmán
    Ambaza
    Odra ben Abdala
    Yahya ben Salema
    Hodaifa ben Al-Ahguas
    Otman ben Abunisa
    Al-Haitam ben Obaid
    Abd al-Malik ben Katan
    Okba
    Balec ben Baxir
    Taalaba ben Salama
    Abultajar
    Toaba ben Salama
    Yusuf
    Hixem
    Al-Hakem
    Muhammad
    Al-Mondir
    Abd-Allah
    Suleiman

    Other andalusian names

    Zeyad
    Omar ben Abdallah Al-Muradí
    Munuza (berber)
    Habib
    Maisara Al-Hakir (berber)
    Baleg ben Biser
    Katan
    Umaiya
    Halid ben Hamed as-Zanati (berber)
    Mohawiya
    Bader
    Alkama
    Teman
    Ibrahim ben Sagara
    Asim Al-Uryan
    Abusaid
    Abusuluad
    Xaquia
    Husein ben Yahya
    Omar
    Malik
    Hasdail ben Saprut (jewish)
    Abul Hattar
    Darrag Al-Kastali (berber)
    Ubaid Allah ben Kasim
    Chammas
    Isa
    Garbib
    Amrus
    Obaidala
    Abu Hafs
    Umar
    Idris
    Ziryab (persian)
    Nasr
    Hasim
    Sadun
    Ibn Marwan
    Omar ben Hafsun
    Aisun
    Hafs
    Sauwar
    Said
    Hagag
    Haldun
    Gad
    Umaiya
    Bakr
    Aben Mastana
    Ahmed
    Chafar
    Saih Al-Aslami
    Halaf
    Aben Marwan
    Galib
    Nachda ("slav", or european slave)
    Abu Alí
    Mushafi
    Aben Gannun
    Al-Mugira
    Ibn Abu Amir Muhammad, named Al-Mansur Billah (Almanzor in spanish), or "the victorious". General, politic and dictator of Al-Andalus between 978 and 1002 AD). Many times victor over christians, and conqueror of Barcelona, Coimbra, Leon, Zamora and Compostela. He preffered sack and/or exterminate those cities more than conquer.
    Chaudar
    Bologgin
    Askalacha
    Ziri ben Atiya
    Wadih
    Al-Mudaffar
    Zawi
    Hairan
    Muchahid
    Gawhar
    Ibn Rumatris


    Andalusian female names

    Tarub
    Subh
    Asmah
    Radia
    Fatima
    Lobna
    Fadal
    Calam
    Adal

    About traits: I think all the usual christian traits are valids for asturian generals. Could be posible, if you are going to adopt the BI "religious-type", add a new trait: adopcionist believs. Adopcionist was a teological controversy in Spain in VIII century, and separated Asturian Church from mossarab (goth cristian in andalus kingdom) church, bringing it near roman european church. Adoptionist believs in a asturian general must (as donatist or arian believs in a roman general in BI) decrease popularity and public order if that general is a governor.

    I think important trait for a christian general (Asturian, Navarre, Catalonian) is despise or hate muslims. Of course the same about christians for an andalusi general. Don´t forget war in Spain had an central motivation about religion.

    I don´t know if you are going to reintroduce offices, as in MTW and BI, but if you are interested, here are some of them:

    Andalusian offices (or ancillaries):
    Sultan, at 929 Caliph: king or faction leader
    Haxib: Prime minister or Chancellor of Palace. head of Royal House, Chancillery and Public Treasure
    Vizir: Each one of minister or state secretaries.
    Amir or wali: governor of a province. Before Caliphate first emir were the effective gobernor of all Andalus.
    Cadi: judge or major of a town. Cadi aljamaa: head of all judges of the caliphate.
    Sahib Surta or Chorta: head of policy of Cordoba.
    Sahib as Sikka: head of the coin factory

    Some ancillaries: Mursif or tax collector (+ in tax collection and in administration), Akim or auxiliar judge (+ law and public order), Al-wazir or policy agent (+ in public order), Mutashib or inspector of weights and measures (+ in trade, farmer production, tax and population grow), Caid or general (+ in personal security and command), ulema or alim, a muslim saviour (+ in muslim conversion and happiness in muslim provinces, - ), faqui, teacher at university (+ in management and influence).

    Real Ancillaries: Al-Gazal, a poet and ambassador; Aben Abd er Rabihi, enciclopedist and scholar; Aben Hani, poet; Azzobaidi, famous teacher of caliphas; Said of Bagdad, poet and epigramist; Habid, bard; Walada, princess and poet; Aben Zeidun, poet; Aben Jaldun, singer; Ziriab, musician; Abd el Malik ben Habib, Law expert; Aben Masarra, philosopher; Aben Hazam, philosopher (don´t forget that a philosopher improves management but decreases popularity of a general due to be suspect of heresy); Ahmed Aben Nasar, mathematician; Moslema ben Alcasim, astronomist, astrologist and alquimist; Maslama, astronomist: Yahya ben Ishak, physician; Said ben Abderrahibi, physician; Albucasim, famous chirurgeon around dark ages world.

    Enough for today. Next day I´ll try to find trais and ancillaries for Asturias, and, if possible, of kingdom of Navarre (basques) and County of Barcelona (catalonians)

  24. #54
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re : Names

    Well, Catalonia will be owned by the Western Franks at start, and the Basques won't be a faction on their own. Do you think either the Western Franks or the Asturians could use these offices ?

  25. #55

    Default Re: Names

    Well, I have posted about andalusian offices, not christian yet. I´m not sure about what are you talking about.

    At 843 Pyrenaic spanish area was divided between the kingdom of Navarra (basques) at west and the Hispanic Mark at East. The Hispanic Mark belongued to West Frankish Kingdom, and were divided by about 10 countys. It depended of the marquis of Gothia (former gothic gaul province of Septimania). Hispaniv Mark and Gothia were united until 865, being then divided. The most powerful count was the count of Barcelona, that usually (not always) were the effective marquis of all the Hispanic Mark.

    At 877 frank emperor Charles declares offices inheritable.
    About 898 count Wilfred of Barcelona began an semi-independent way from the frankish kings for Hispanic Mark. But officialy the counts of Barcelona continue to be theorical vasals to the West frankish king.
    Legal independence from him has a difficult exactly date.
    Around 950-970 AD counts of Barcelona dominated most of countys of the Mark (except those that remained aragonese) and then their territory received the name of County of Barcelona. Catalonia is a later name, used in full XI century.

    If you are thinking about make the catalonians an emerging faction, I believe is better name the province as Hispanic Mark (historical accurate at 843) and County of Barcelona as faction name, that this is the official name for catalonians until XV century. Its banner was a red cross over white flag (St George cross). Later was quarted with the four red stacks on gold.

  26. #56
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re : Names

    Unhappilly, there won't be any other spanish faction beside Asturia and the Omeyyads.

    I was speaking about the Basque and Catalunians (?) offices. Do you think they could be used by the Western Franks, by the Omeyyads or by the Asturians ? If not, they will be of little use for the mod, since we we won't have Navarra and Catalunia as playable factions.

  27. #57

    Default Re: Names

    Ok, now I understand. I think that, in fact, were the catalonians who used frankish offices.
    Navarre kingdom was very "original", so I think you cannot use its offices for franks, could be for asturians.

    For Asturias:

    offices: Alfonso II (about 800-842) reconstructed the "Aula Regia", the gothic royal court.
    comites or counts: governors of provinces. Most importants were count of Galicia and Count of Castilla.
    comites palatinii: court offices. Cubicularius, coperus
    dukes: military heads of the towns.
    iudex: judges of the towns.

    traits: adoptionist believes (- popularity in christian provinces), hates or despises muslims (+ command against muslims), saint apparitions (+ morale of troops and christian conversion), gothic blood in his veins (+ influence), devout of Saint James (+ influence and christian conversion), likes hunter (+ movement), dislikes hunter (- popularity), believes in ordalia (God´s judgement) (+ christian conversion - management)

    ancillaries: monk (+ christian conversion and popularity in christian provinces), monastery copist (+ management) catholic bishop (+ christian conversion and influence), chancillery priest scribe (++ management), trujiman or translator-ambassador to muslims (+ influence), jewish financier (+ management or/and tax, - popularity), jewish trader (+ trader and trader taxes, - popularity), sayon or law agent (+ public order and law), fidel palatii or bodyguard (+ personal security), majordomus similar to frankish (+ management and influence), hunter (+ sight line and movements)

    real ancilliaries: Bernardo del Carpio, famous warrior (+ command), Cross of Pelayo (+ christian conversion and ++ influence), Eulogius of Cordoba, bishop and martyr to sarrains (+ christian conversion and command against muslims), Beatus of Liebana, erudit and polemist against adopcionists (+ christian conversion and management).

    That´s all for now. I will continue investigating.
    Generally you can assign frank trais and ancillaries to the asturian generals if necessary.

  28. #58
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re : Names

    Nice list.
    Btw, do you know if there was missi dominici in the Asturian Kingdom ?

  29. #59

    Default Re: Names

    What is a missi dominici?

  30. #60
    Dungalloigh Brehonda Member Ranika's Avatar
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    Default Re: Names

    What is the manner of offices?
    Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.


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