Magyar and Khazars

[Meneldil]

The Parthians were known for their Heavy Cavalry. They invented Kataphraktoi I think.

The Khazar knew agriculture, built important cities, yet they were a steppe people, and all their cavalry wasn't heavily armoured aswell. And they had some quite good heavy cavalry.

As for the Khazar's religion, well I have no idea how many of them converted to Judaism, but in the high middle age, Khazar was kinda like Israel : the place where all jews wished to live in.

[Steppe Merc]

Thank you Meneldil. The chroniclors also claimed all Sarmatians were heavy armoured lancers, but that was obviously untrue. I am aware of the different sorts of horse armors, and there is no way that the majority of any nation's horse had horse armor. That would be impossible, especially for a steppe nation. Every warrior just wouldn't be rich enough, and it wouldn't be practical. Even light horse armor would slow down an unarmoured horse archer.
And the Parthians invented the Kataphraktoi type (or perfected it at least), and even they or the later Sassanains had only some horse armor, and only on the richest of the rich.

[Incongruous]

Dude!
I am serious, this horse armour would noy have been expensive, hardened animal skin/leather, with a fer strips or ringlets of metal, then after the Magyars had raided Europe and plundered the Byzantines, yes every warrior would have been wealthy.Remember there were very, very few Magyars.

[Steppe Merc]

Bopa, all knights were wealthy too. Every single one. Not all of them used horse armor. All Parthian cataphracts were wealthy. Not all used horse armor. To be a heavy horse, they have to be wealthy. However, not all used horse armor. And an unarmoured horse archer would not use horse armor of any sort either.

I'm not trying to be argumentitive, I just think it would be a grave mistake to assume that all Magyars had horse armor. No nation that I know of, not any, had every horse armored. The Byzantine's heavy horse wasn't all armored either.

[Incongruous]

Oh but they did, perhaps you are thinking too much of western horse armour, I will try to find a picture for. Having this early Magyar horse armour was not about wealth, they made it themselves from hunted animals and scraps of metal.

[Steppe Merc]

Trust me, when I think of horses, I think of steppe horses, not Western.

[skeletor]

Bopa/steppemerc: due to the game mecanics, all unit's of the same type must have the same armour... Could you figure out what unit's wold probably have a majority of horsearmour, and who wold not, so that we could make a comprimize?

Allso, as im doing with the vikings, i have split up unit's, that is the same unit, but have been given diffrent names over time. They were so varied in skills and armour, so i make one unit with the name most used early on, and then make a second, heavier unit with the later name.

This makes it work with the game-engines techtree, and allso gives you both aspects of the unit.

If you know(could find) diffrent names used in diffrent eras wold be comprimizing and great for us modelolers :-)

-Skel-

[Steppe Merc]

Well I'd say only the richest nobles, and the general's bodyguard unit.
But I won't be around for a week to continue arguing my case.

[Incongruous]

Well since your under limits Skeletor lets say that all first rung cavalry are without horse armour, but the second ring upwards would have it, possibly stretched to the third.
I stand by the beleif that the Magyars used horse armour, which they made themselves.

[caesar44]

A question for the moders - I suppose the Khazar generals will have Jewish names like Moses or Abraham ???

[skeletor]

I don't think we have looked too mutch in to the names, but i found a list of Khazarian names. They used a mixture of Turkic, Hebrew, and some Bulgarian names..

Male Khazarian names

Turkic names:
Alp (means "hero")
Baghatur (means "brave warrior")
Balgitzi, Belgichi, Bälgichi, Balghichi
Barjik
Bashtu, Bashtwa
Bihor, Biheros, Bihar, Virhor
Bugha (means "bull")
Bulan (means "elk")
Bulchan, Buljan, Bluchan
Buzer, Busir, Bazir
Chat
Chat`n
Chorpan (means "star")
Itakh (means "puppy")
Kayghalagh, Kayqalagh
Khatir, Khadir
Khuterkin, Quterkin (means "chief with heavenly good fortune")
Kisa
Kundajiq, Kundaj
Mänär
Mänäs
Morut, Marót
Menumorut, Menmarót, Mënü Marót
Ötemish
Papatzys
Samsam, Simsam
Tarkhan (normally a title; means "general" or "commander")
Tarmach
Trukeg
Tuzniq
Yilig, Ilig
Ziebil (probably equal to the title Yabghu, Jebghu)

Hebrew names:
Aharon, Aaron
Amram
Avraham, Abraham
Benyamin
David
Hanukkah
Hezekiah
Menakhem, Menahem
Menashe
Nisi, Nissi
Obadiah, Ovadiah
Pesakh, Pesah
Reuven, Reuben
Sabriel
Shmuel
Simson
Sinai
Yaakov
Yehudah
Yitzhak
Yosef
Zebulun, Zavulon
Zechariah, Zachariah, Zecharias

Slavic names:
Gostyata, Gostata
Ivan

Other names:
George, Georgios, Georgius
Kupin, Kufin
Zambri, Zambrios
Zoilus, Zoilos
Kibar

They should start with a general called [Itakh (means "puppy")] given all the tyrant and bloody traits...

-Skel-

[Dol Guldur]

I'm sure the modders are aware of the on-line resources such as http://www.khazaria.com - which contains a page on Turkic/Hebrew/Slavic Khazarian names among other things.

[skeletor]

Nice, i think i have seen it, but i have done most of my research on the "the thirteenth tribe" page.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13t...teenth%20Tribe

Alot of good reading there, and it's written in contex with the history of all the surounding empires.

-Skel-

[Forgus]

Guys, merc, Boba,

No offense intended, but there are serious problems with the unit descriptions. Unfortunately the Hungarian frases are really bad, to a native speaker they sound even hilarious. Sorry.
But if you let me I help you. Being native and having a good knowledge of Hungarian history I think I can put together something historically correct. And of course I can access a whole lot of resources unavailable to you...
What do you say?

[Forgus]

Cavalry.

Néptörzs Magyar.

It is not correct It would be correct to say Magyar Törzsszövetség - Alliance of the tribes of the Magyars (at least that's how we say it)


These fierce fighters from the Taranian

Where is it? Do you mean Turanian? It is a rather mythical place, hot a geographic unit...


plain shook Europe to its core, their ferociaty and skill with the bow and sabre allowed them to defeat every enemy they encountered for over a century, while the Englisc would dread the sails of the Viking keels, the rest of Europe would dread the thunder of Magayar hooves. "From the Magyars' arrows deliver us, oh God!". These horse archers would wear a knee lenght tunic of red and yellow cloth covered by a leather cuirass. Their boot were tough leather and went all the way up to the thighs. They wore leather bands around their hands to protect their fingers from the bow's lasserations. Their helmet was pointed iron with a horse hair crest of red upon it. Their horses had leather and scail protection and their stirrups allowed them great mobility upon the field.

If you wish I will come up full comments on the armament and accessories of the Magyars later, along with pictures.

Néptörzs Khabars.

Let's say the "Kabarok törzse" instead or "Kabar törzs" or even "Kabarok" would be fine.

These tribesmen split off from the main Khazar community and joined the Magyar federation in search of a better home. They would wear a green knee length tunic and knee length leather boot along with a leather pointed cap rimmed with fur. They carried the Magyar recurve bow and the curved sabre. Their horse would of had only leather padding. These men are some of the fastest cavalry around, but lack armour.



To Second Rung.

Magyars ból a Alföld.

I guess you mean Magyars of the Alföld. That would be "Alföldi magyarok".
Unfortunately we are more into the realm of fantasy here,sorry to say.

These Magyars enjoy the benefits of technology and wealth. They wear a red and yellow knee length tunic under a sleeveless fir trimmed green jacket. Their boots are knee length and leather trimmed with white fur. They wear black leather gloves on their hands. They carry, a recurve bow and a sabre. Their horses are protected by scale and leather padding armour.

Nyugatra Avar.

This is Nyugati Avarok, or rather plainly Avarok. Once again te describtion is doubtful.. By the time the Hungarians got there there were only traces of Avars in the area.

These Avars are all that remains of the people that once stormed forth from the Taranian plain. But they are still deadly. They would wear a chain mail hauberk and thigh lenght leather boots, a steel "Frankik" helmet with nose guard and eyepieces. These men would carry a long spear and a kite shield. Their horses had scale and leather padding/armour. These men are the earliest form of Magyar heavy cavalry.

Nagy Székely.

This is totally wrong. The origins of the székelys is still debated, but appearantly they were not part of the seven tribes. How did you get this description????

These are the last nobles of the western Branch of the Huns, they are a proud race who ache for better times, they see the coming of their Magyar bretheren as their salavation. "They thought the scourge gone, but it was only drawing breath". These men wear black and grey furs over a cote of mail. Their helmets have developed from Rus and Hunnic designs, the result is a truly fearsome look. A pionted steel helm rimmed with black or grey wolf fur, it has a nose guard and eyepieces, a chain mail neck guard covers all of the face and neck save the eyes, atop this helm is a black horse hair plume. They wear chain and leather boots and and gloves, they carry the dreaded recurve bow as a secondry weapon, their main weapon is the dreaded double headed hun battle axe, at the tip of its head are hooks which they use to catch routers or pull other cavalrymen from their saddles. They also carry a round wooden shield coverd with leather and rimmed with steel. Their horses have scale armour covered with a black and grey fur horse coat. These men were called the scourge of god for good reason.

To Third Rung.

Lovasság ból a Fejedelem.

A fejedelem lovassága? Doesn't sound too good...

These are the lesser nobles of a "prince's" tribe, some would even be his family. After seeing what heavily armoured horse could do the Magyar princes started to equip themselves and their retainers with heavy mail hauberks, they also started to put heavy scail-mail armour on their horses. These men wear a rich green and yellow thigh length tunic over a (long sleeved) knee length mail hauberk, there boots are still of leather as are their gloves. They wear the same helmet as the Nagy Székely except they have a green horse pleum instaed. They carry the recurve bow, and a larger version of the Magayar sabre. They are lead into battle by a prince, who would be wearing a lavish red and yellow cloak over a chainmail hauberk, they would wear black leather boots and gloves. They carry a recurve bow and a a sabre. Upon their heads they wear a steel frankik helm with a steel crouwn on it, atop this they would have a plume of red and yellow horse hair and three black feathers. Their horses are armoured exactly the same way as their men.

Lovasság ból a Alföld.

Forget this please.

These heavy lancers of the Pannonian plain are the second arm of the Magyar heavy cavalry wing. Armoured with a round wooden shield covered with leather and rimmed with steal, plate-mail, and a Frankik helm with nose guard and chain mail coif along with chain mail gloves. armed with a strong heavy lance and a sabre. Their horses are armoured with scail and leather padding. These men are part of the new Magyar cavalry wing, a heavy westernised lancer, they do not use the bow. These men have the edge over their western counterparts as they have more experiance because of almost constant warfare with Byzantium and the Bulgars for near a hundred years.

To Fourth Rung

Nemes ból a Palota.

A nemesek - nobles - scame in feudal times, around 250 years later. Similarly, the Magyars had no palaces at that time.

I'm sorry, I can't take it any longer... It is full fantasy.

[ScionTheWorm]

thanks!

[Steppe Merc]

Forgus, I didn't even work on the descs, I was just trying to help.
What info do you have on the appearance and the arms and armorment of the Magyars?

[Forgus]

Pictures, describtions, detailed describtion of tactics, etc. I have to scan them though, most part is at my partents' house.

stuff like you see on http://istvandr.kiszely.hu/ostortenet/036.html

I do some research and will come up with a unit list too.

Generally Magyar military was not very diverse. Usually they had ligt horse warriors with leather armour or sometimes chainmail armour, I doubt they had horse armour but I will take a look. All warriors werw equipped with a bow, and either a lance (koplya) or a long shafted pick (fokos). Most wielded also the scimitar like szablya. There is evidence that some used small round buckler-like shields too. Historically the Kabars and Besenyős as allied non-Hungarian (Turkish) people who came with the Magyars were made to provide the avantgarde and rearguard and therefore acted like light horse archers, little or no armour, light horse skirmishers etc.
The Magyars at that period had no infantry at all, sometimes in defense irregulars or pesants might have been pushed to service unmounted, but this is all guesswork.
At that period, the hungarian armies applied three kinds of tactics: as later the Mongols they were strictly organized into groups of ten, one hundred and one thousand, and were pretty discliplined in carrying out orders.
So the three tactics mentioned:
1) Softening attack: advance quickly, shoot some salvoes of arrows, then withdaw mostly made unit by unit
2) charge with lancers in front, firing arrows on the way
3) fake routing: this made the enemy to charge ahead, where they could be decieved to preak into smaller groups and dealt with one by one, mostly by shooting arrows backwards. This was pretty effective against heavy cavalry.
Interesting fact that the bodyguard of the Magyar tribal leaders (nemzetségfők, vagy bők (careful, it is not a title! The title is úr) very often employed viking or normann mercenaries. (though I don't think that they would make up a unit...

This much for now...

[Forgus]

how to insert pics?

[Forgus]

I see...
Check this out:

[Rodion Romanovich]

Thanks, very useful info from all of you!

@Forgus: will you make a unit list, or can you look at the new magyar tech tree I'll post in the first post, and come with suggestions for better unit names and other changes? Would be very helpful for us.

[Forgus]

Thanks, very useful info from all of you!

@Forgus: will you make a unit list, or can you look at the new magyar tech tree I'll post in the first post, and come with suggestions for better unit names and other changes? Would be very helpful for us.

Shure thing. Just give me a few days, I'm redecorating the kitchen at the moment. Damn carpenters...

[Forgus]

OK the unit list as promised:
Pre martian
Kabarok – light skirmishers armed with bow, good movement, tires slowly, can fire backwords
Vitézek – bow, longer distance and rate, sword, tire quick in melee, can fire backwords
Koplyások – clad in leather armour, bow, (shorter distance) small round shield lance
Köplények – see kylfingar or kolbjagi, Varegian medium heavy cavalry chainmail, should not be recruited easily

Ante martian - at 1001 (first christian king I. (saint) Stephan was crowned, the military turns gradually into western style military

German (Schwab, Bayernish) knights – I don’t really know what type armour, sword, shield lance?
Varjág testőrök – household cavalry of the king, Varegian heavy cavalry, lance shield short shafted axe, chainmail
Várjobbágyok – see koplyások but christian looking, stonger melee
Besenyők – similar to the Kabars, different skin
Vitézek see above, a more chrisrian skin, stronger melee

No infantry. All names in plural.

Shame the mod ends at 1100. some years later we could add quite interesting units like Arab archers, Cumani, etc...

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok, thanks a lot!

We're not planning marian reform system, but we'll form the tech trees based on scripting etc. to make the new units appear when historically appropriate, according to your info, plus adapt it to the system of buildings complexes and balance it, more historically than gameplay based, against the other tech trees.

As for the ending date, we're thinking about later making an early crusader era mod, spanning from perhaps 1099 to 1204, but one thing at the time...

[Forgus]

OK. I thik about including these into the tech tree... Conversion into cristianity was quick, for many forced and cruel, and really changed everyday life dramaticly. Is it possible to build a building that can be used as as a prerequisite for buildings in other settlements? I think about a "Conversion to christianity" "Building" (rather an event) after wich temples and monasteries could be built instead of secred groves and stuff, nand therefore enable to build barracks for christian units?

[Rodion Romanovich]

I've not yet begun on scripting (will do when most basic campaign map stuff has been fixed), but I'm sure you can have events set at certain dates, or create events related to dates and a slightly random-looking factor or two to not make it related to the exact date (making it more interesting perhaps). One can also seek more complex triggers reminding of the historical triggers. The reason why magyars were converted isn't certain afaik, but it could be something along the lines of:
1. there was a conflict between orthodox and catholics.
2. the magyars had reached their settlements in the pannonia area.
3. the magyars had become slightly weakened, and benefitted somewhat from the alliance a conversion would mean.
4. date should be after say, 950.

Could that be a valid set of triggers or is anything in it wrong? How that is converted to game triggers may be discussed, but for example I think it's possible to control province ownerships, whether certain factions are at war (not sure), and minimum date. Another way of creating triggers could be to have it through a trait. If, say, a man who gets the trait "Supports Christian conversion" becomes ruler, he could cause this conversion. And how he'd get that trait, could depend on a number of factors like date, province ownerships etc.

BTW, about the szekely, are they an unhistorical unit?

[Forgus]

I've not yet begun on scripting (will do when most basic campaign map stuff has been fixed), but I'm sure you can have events set at certain dates, or create events related to dates and a slightly random-looking factor or two to not make it related to the exact date (making it more interesting perhaps). One can also seek more complex triggers reminding of the historical triggers. The reason why magyars were converted isn't certain afaik, but it could be something along the lines of:
1. there was a conflict between orthodox and catholics.
2. the magyars had reached their settlements in the pannonia area.
3. the magyars had become slightly weakened, and benefitted somewhat from the alliance a conversion would mean.
4. date should be after say, 950.

Could that be a valid set of triggers or is anything in it wrong? How that is converted to game triggers may be discussed, but for example I think it's possible to control province ownerships, whether certain factions are at war (not sure), and minimum date. Another way of creating triggers could be to have it through a trait. If, say, a man who gets the trait "Supports Christian conversion" becomes ruler, he could cause this conversion. And how he'd get that trait, could depend on a number of factors like date, province ownerships etc.

Is it possible that all characters could have one trait from the following group:
pagan, muslim, israelite (Khazars were convertites therefore not Jevish), orthodox or catholic? From different fractions the distribution should vary like for the Magyars in 1000 should be like 35% pagan, 15% orthodox, 5% muslim, 50% catholic. This could change every say 50 years.
The conversion could occur, if the ruler becomes any kind of christian, is allied to either Bizantium or Rome, and the date is after 950... or something like that.
So when I suggest the tech tree can I count on having any kind of conversion event in the game?

[Csatadi]

Maybe I can help you in this project, but what is the starting time?

I do not remember any horse armour from the books I read about the theme.

The 'Néptörzs' word is too complicated, only historians use this word. The simply 'Törzs' is better choice. But similar to the Gauls they can be simply Magyars.

Baptizing people especially by force does not mean they throw away their original religion. No surprize there were pagan revolutions in 1046 and ~1072. The people -in this case the Magyars- will keep their customs and their old religion for decades until the missionaries and the rulers (soldiers) will wins.

I never heard about Varagians in the service of the Hungarian kings.

The people of the steppe were very similar. Besenyők (Pechenegs), Bolgárok (Bulgarian), Magyars, Kabars (or Kavars) Khazars all the same. Exceptions can be the special circumstances. I do not know how many chainmails and swords get the Magyars, did they use them or not.

Forgus the picture you inserted is an idealized one. Most of the people had only a bow and nothing else. Maybe a cheap koplya (spear) or a fokos (spontoon?). Only the richest may have sabres (there are only few in the findigs).

It can be important they go in fight with a lot of horses. They were able change the tired or injured horse to anoter one. Therefore I suggest (very) good stamina to (all) the steppen people.

Székelys or Székelyek are not a fantasy people they live yet (now!) in Transylvania. Their origin is not clear. They were maybe Bulgarians, Kabars or who knows?

The Várjobbányok were the officials of the Várnépek (=Castle warriors in this meaning).

Do you need old Hungarian names?

I have an English languaged history book for school children. I will scan it for myself and can drop it in file if you are interested.

[Meneldil]

Fergus already gave us a list of name, but I wouldn't mind if you had some surnames to share with us

Edit : the starting date is 843

[Forgus]

Maybe I can help you in this project, but what is the starting time?

I do not remember any horse armour from the books I read about the theme.

The 'Néptörzs' word is too complicated, only historians use this word. The simply 'Törzs' is better choice. But similar to the Gauls they can be simply Magyars.

Baptizing people especially by force does not mean they throw away their original religion. No surprize there were pagan revolutions in 1046 and ~1072. The people -in this case the Magyars- will keep their customs and their old religion for decades until the missionaries and the rulers (soldiers) will wins.

I never heard about Varagians in the service of the Hungarian kings.

The people of the steppe were very similar. Besenyők (Pechenegs), Bolgárok (Bulgarian), Magyars, Kabars (or Kavars) Khazars all the same. Exceptions can be the special circumstances. I do not know how many chainmails and swords get the Magyars, did they use them or not.

Forgus the picture you inserted is an idealized one. Most of the people had only a bow and nothing else. Maybe a cheap koplya (spear) or a fokos (spontoon?). Only the richest may have sabres (there are only few in the findigs).

It can be important they go in fight with a lot of horses. They were able change the tired or injured horse to anoter one. Therefore I suggest (very) good stamina to (all) the steppen people.

Székelys or Székelyek are not a fantasy people they live yet (now!) in Transylvania. Their origin is not clear. They were maybe Bulgarians, Kabars or who knows?

The Várjobbányok were the officials of the Várnépek (=Castle warriors in this meaning).

Do you need old Hungarian names?

I have an English languaged history book for school children. I will scan it for myself and can drop it in file if you are interested.

Believe me, I have my sources...
"A királyi sereg másodikként említendõ nehézfegyverzetû páncélos törzsét a Taksony kori skandináv "kölpény", a Géza kori "sváb" és az István fejedelem kori "bajor" t lovasság után 1030-ra varég-orosz fegyveresekkel egészítették ki. Ezt a megállapítást a következõ egybevetés igazolja. Imrérõl egykorú forrás azt jegyezte fel, hogy címe dux Ruizorum, azaz "oroszok vezére" volt, trónörökös utódjáról, Orseolo Péterrõl pedig azt írták, hogy mint trónörökös, princeps exercitus regis, "a királyi sereg parancsnoka" lett. Minthogy régi magyar nyelven az oroz szónak "királyi ajtónálló, csatlós, a testõr" jelentése is volt, a bizánci császárnak pedig, ugyanúgy, mint a kijevi nagyfejedelemnek, rúsz, ill. varég (varang, varjág) testõrsége volt, a magyar királyi testõrséget az államalapítás után az a népelem alkothatta, amelynek Orosz és Varang. helyneveinkben maradt emléke. Ennek a csapattestnek jellegzetes fegyverzete volt a' rövid nyelû csatabárd, meg a pajzs és a lándzsa. A királyi seregben a páncélos had a számban kisebb, de harcászatilag legerõsebb törzset és a testõrséget adhatta. Ezek fegyverzete a király tulajdonát képezhette, és, mint Nagy Károly birodalmában és a bolgár cárságban, fegyverraktárakban a seregvezérek õrizetére volt bízva"
in detail:http://www.bgrg.sulinet.hu/tant/inf/...MANDOB/g34.htm
http://ww3.szentes.hu/honfoglalas/kaland/text61.htm
http://ww3.szentes.hu/honfoglalas/kaland/text64.htm
http://www.bgrg.sulinet.hu/tant/inf/...MANDOB/g03.htm
http://www.bgrg.sulinet.hu/tant/inf/...MANDOB/g11.htm

Of course I did not say that the székelys were fantasy people I merely said that Bopa'sescribtion is fantasyish...

Under Taksony right right after the age of adventuring a transition began from the all ligt cavalry of the early ages towards a more heavy form of cavalry, that's when the first eastern Viking household cavalry was hired. You can read an interesting article on the transition of the Magyar cavalry:
http://epa.oszk.hu/00000/00018/00016/03bszabo.htm


I hope after having read these we will reach the same conclusion...