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Thread: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

  1. #61

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Further to this, you should also note that the composition of the Marian army in 107bc still contained Velites. Velites were last recorded being used by Sulla in 88bc in his campaigns in the east. Also there are records which state that some units were armed as slingers, but no specific unit was committed to this.
    The Romans also used Gallic horsemen, Sulla recruited these horsemen for the Numidian campaign.

    As i see it, hastati & triarii were dropped as tactical units and the principes formed the core of Marian legion. Equipment stayed largely the same until the Augustan reforms.

    ER, have a look on RedRampant.com for more info on this.

    I hope this helps with the roman area of your mod!!!!

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  2. #62
    EB Pointless Extras Botherer Member VandalCarthage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    As an aside regarding my notes there on the independent Ptolemaic kingdom in Cyprus and Cyrenaica... since Ptolemy IX was formally distinguished as 'Lathyros,' a good name for this independent kingdom would simply be the Lathyrosian Kingdom, in keeping with the presumed idea of dynastic rule - again presuming that he would be set up as irreconciled with the Alexandrian backed Ptolemies in Egypt. Of course for the first release, this would just be a good name for a new rebel faction there.

    Some other more interesting specifics that I referenced in one of the Ptolemaic histories I have, is that he actually became powerful while still ruling this independent kingdom. He sent 6,000 Cypriot levies to aid one of the feuding Seleucid dynasts, and actually maintained the loyalty of Cyrenaica throughout his time on Cyprus. Apparently he also emplyed a good many mercenary pirates in his navy, and some of the peoples of Southern Asia Minor in a small local force on Cyprus, which he successfully fortified and defended several times.
    Last edited by VandalCarthage; 08-26-2005 at 04:08.
    "It is an error to divide people into the living and the dead: there are people who are dead-alive, and people who are alive_alive. The dead-alive also write, walk, speak, atc. But they make no mistakes; only machines make no mistakes, and they produce only dead things. The alive-alive are constantly in error, in search, in questions, in torment." - Yevgeny Zamyatin

  3. #63
    Egomaniac sexpert Member Dux Corvanus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    About Iberian faction, there is something that worries me.

    You know, that it must limit itself to the only peninsular areas still not conquered by Rome at your start period. This is, Asturia and Cantabria.

    We have some units from that area. The problem is the rest of Iberian stuff. Asturian-Cantabrian culture was very different from the SE and central stuff we normally take as Iberian. This means that a good portion of EB Iberian faction-specific stuff -gameplay, cultural references, artwork and most common recruitable units- is simply not fit for those northern provinces, Iberian as they are.


  4. #64
    dictator by the people Member caesar44's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Europa ...(?)
    "The essence of philosophy is to ask the eternal question that has no answer" (Aristotel) . "Yes !!!" (me) .

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  5. #65
    dictator by the people Member caesar44's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Quote Originally Posted by VandalCarthage
    As an aside regarding my notes there on the independent Ptolemaic kingdom in Cyprus and Cyrenaica... since Ptolemy IX was formally distinguished as 'Lathyros,' a good name for this independent kingdom would simply be the Lathyrosian Kingdom, in keeping with the presumed idea of dynastic rule - again presuming that he would be set up as irreconciled with the Alexandrian backed Ptolemies in Egypt. Of course for the first release, this would just be a good name for a new rebel faction there.

    Some other more interesting specifics that I referenced in one of the Ptolemaic histories I have, is that he actually became powerful while still ruling this independent kingdom. He sent 6,000 Cypriot levies to aid one of the feuding Seleucid dynasts, and actually maintained the loyalty of Cyrenaica throughout his time on Cyprus. Apparently he also emplyed a good many mercenary pirates in his navy, and some of the peoples of Southern Asia Minor in a small local force on Cyprus, which he successfully fortified and defended several times.

    Please if you can , a short chronology of the Ptolemaic dynasty since 166 bce the confusion...
    "The essence of philosophy is to ask the eternal question that has no answer" (Aristotel) . "Yes !!!" (me) .

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  6. #66

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    The Ptolemies were indeed confusing, I believe that Ptolemy IX that VC refers to held power on three different occasions, swapping back and forth with Ptolemy X. But anyway, I would suggest you start with this and then click on the successor to follow the story along.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandal Carthage
    As an aside regarding my notes there on the independent Ptolemaic kingdom in Cyprus and Cyrenaica... since Ptolemy IX was formally distinguished as 'Lathyros,' a good name for this independent kingdom would simply be the Lathyrosian Kingdom, in keeping with the presumed idea of dynastic rule - again presuming that he would be set up as irreconciled with the Alexandrian backed Ptolemies in Egypt. Of course for the first release, this would just be a good name for a new rebel faction there.
    Sounds very interesting, he was deposed in 107BC right? I suppose that leaves the question of do we go with Ptolemy IX or X as the faction leader? Both could present exciting challenges if their kingdom starts divided.

    I imagine these dynastic struggles were feuds that took place mainly at the highest levels and the common man was not much involved. Would it be the case that different cities would support different dynasts? Or would it all be handled behind closed doors more than on the field of battle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dux Corvanus
    We have some units from that area. The problem is the rest of Iberian stuff. Asturian-Cantabrian culture was very different from the SE and central stuff we normally take as Iberian. This means that a good portion of EB Iberian faction-specific stuff -gameplay, cultural references, artwork and most common recruitable units- is simply not fit for those northern provinces, Iberian as they are.
    To be sure, Iberia will be a challenge to play. But we're not really able to play around with changing the factions around for the first release. Plus it gives Iberia great potential for development, as it expands and beats back the Romans it liberates its homeland and gains access to new troops and reclaims its sacred sites.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centurion Cato
    I hope this helps with the roman area of your mod!!!!
    It does indeed, many thanks for your help. Obviously there's a lot to think about as to how best to represent this all
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  7. #67
    EB Pointless Extras Botherer Member VandalCarthage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Sounds very interesting, he was deposed in 107BC right? I suppose that leaves the question of do we go with Ptolemy IX or X as the faction leader? Both could present exciting challenges if their kingdom starts divided.

    I imagine these dynastic struggles were feuds that took place mainly at the highest levels and the common man was not much involved. Would it be the case that different cities would support different dynasts? Or would it all be handled behind closed doors more than on the field of battle?
    I believe they should be divided, as independent faction leaders, since he was deposed early in 107 from his rule in Alexandria. Ptolemy IX obviously should head the Cypriot/Cyrenaican Ptolemaic faction, while Ptolemy X Alexander and his wife Berenice III should rule in Alexandria, over the rest of the Nile territories. With some unique Cypriot units, and Cyrenaican auxilia, it would be pretty awesome to see the two go at each other - with what were by all accounts pretty equally equipped forces.

    And the feud was actually not a behind the scenes affair. Ptolemy IX deployed troops independently in Syria during his reign in Cyprus. The Alexandrian citizens were also known for a good deal of individual personal activism - most notably lynching a king 20 minutes after he poisoned his mother. The people of Alexandria were always active in the political struggles, often forcing upper level decisions through their own insistance, while the people of the country outside the city were equally active and frequently supported the factions outside of Alexandria Though they never confronted each other on the battlefield in any significant fashion, they were clearly rivals; one for holding the throne in Alexandria, and the other for taking it. Since similar rivalries had very frequently in the past brought native populations to arms in the defense of their individual faction leader, it stands to reason that under Ptolemy IX's stable rule in Cyprus, that the condition would have been equally inflammatory to subject populations.
    Last edited by VandalCarthage; 08-27-2005 at 00:40.
    "It is an error to divide people into the living and the dead: there are people who are dead-alive, and people who are alive_alive. The dead-alive also write, walk, speak, atc. But they make no mistakes; only machines make no mistakes, and they produce only dead things. The alive-alive are constantly in error, in search, in questions, in torment." - Yevgeny Zamyatin

  8. #68
    EB Pointless Extras Botherer Member VandalCarthage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Since I mentioned his intervention in Syria, it seems like the Seleucid's situation als bears some discussion.

    For our period, the Seleucid kingdom being restricted to Syria, was divided between Antiochus VIII Grypus and Antiochus IX Cyzicenus. Grypus was allied with Cleopatra III and Ptolemy IX on Cyprus, and was the recipient of his aid, while Cyzicenus was supported by Ptolemy X in Alexandria. This is probably one of the most confusing points of the dynastic feud, as the Ptolemaic factions were reversed at this point; the Alexandrian party having been previously supported by Cyprus, while being opposed by partisans in the Egyptian country. Despite that, in 107, the positions were reversed yet again - with Ptolemy IX supporting Cyzicenus, and even sending him the 6,000 local levies I mentioned earlier.

    (As an aside, the numbers here demonstrate how much stronger the Ptolemies in Cyprus were then those centered around the 'old kingdom' regions. They simply had less local loyalty and fewer resources to maintain an army abroad, and Ptolemy IX may have controlled more of the Libyan coast East of Cyrenaica)

    Fortunately, there are a lot of specific dates regarding some of the local events around here. Around 108, Grypus granted Seleucia it's independence in Syria, but retained personal control of the Northern reaches of the now entirely Syrian cenetered kingdom, including Pamphylia. Cyzicenus also granted the independence of Tyre and Sidon a few years earlier, and Samaria was taken by the Hasmoneans only a couple years later, indicating that the last of his power was centered around Southern Syria and Northern 'Palestine/Judea' with less significant possessions to the East. Grypus also probably controlled Cilicia, as his son later established his own court there when he was defeated.

    So, again we find out that the there were two distinct independent kingdoms of the Seleucids, in much the same boat as the two independent Ptolemaic kingdoms (save in the respect that they weren't at war) The individual alliances make it even more interesting... the more powerful Ptolemaic kingdom supported the declining Seleucid faction, while the more powerful Seleucids were ostensibly supported by the declining Ptolemaic faction - in so far as they could support them. The latter alliance wasn't of substantial use to either faction, but in game, with a Jewish kingdom between the two, it would make for some incredible interaction - especially considering that the two Seleucid kingdoms had a stable peace bewteen each other that lasted for a goodly while.
    Last edited by VandalCarthage; 08-27-2005 at 05:35.
    "It is an error to divide people into the living and the dead: there are people who are dead-alive, and people who are alive_alive. The dead-alive also write, walk, speak, atc. But they make no mistakes; only machines make no mistakes, and they produce only dead things. The alive-alive are constantly in error, in search, in questions, in torment." - Yevgeny Zamyatin

  9. #69

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Most interesting. It strikes me that perhaps there is a way we can allow the player to try their hands at both dynastic lines. It would just be a matter of swapping the territory and changing the names and the Ptolomeioi and Seleukid factions would portray the other side of the struggle. We could have a Provincial Campaign for these 'alternate dynasties'. This would allow us to offer a different starting position and a different challenge to the Ptolomeioi, the Seleukids, we could represent a different Indo-Greek kingdom, a different Roman faction (though not at civil war, a game starting in Gaul facing the Cimibri & Teutoni would be very different from one as Marius facing the Numidians).
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  10. #70

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Epistolary Richard
    Most interesting. It strikes me that perhaps there is a way we can allow the player to try their hands at both dynastic lines. It would just be a matter of swapping the territory and changing the names and the Ptolomeioi and Seleukid factions would portray the other side of the struggle. We could have a Provincial Campaign for these 'alternate dynasties'. This would allow us to offer a different starting position and a different challenge to the Ptolomeioi, the Seleukids, we could represent a different Indo-Greek kingdom, a different Roman faction (though not at civil war, a game starting in Gaul facing the Cimibri & Teutoni would be very different from one as Marius facing the Numidians).
    In such an alternate campaign, would it be possible to change the Gallic faction to the Arverni, or are they no longer faction material at this point in time?

  11. #71

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    what is the evidence for the Casse in the late 2nd century BC?

  12. #72
    Dungalloigh Brehonda Member Ranika's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    A lot of it comes from Roman's understanding of the region; further, coins with their king (Cassivellaunus; the title of the king of the Catuvellauni as reported by Caesar about 50 years later; the 'Casse' had developed into this tribe through the influence of Belgae, like the Atrebates) were present in the regions ascribed; midlanders didn't use coinage themselves, but Gallic-Britons did. Remaining understandings of Celtic histories point to the same development; it was the extent of any British king's holdings in this period, and represents the appex of any single Celtic-Briton's individual power in this period.
    Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.


  13. #73

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Quote Originally Posted by NeonGod
    In such an alternate campaign, would it be possible to change the Gallic faction to the Arverni, or are they no longer faction material at this point in time?
    Not just in a simple provincial campaign as you can't change the name of the factions - so they'd still be called the Aedui. It would take a proper expansion mod of EB to do, rewriting some of the primary text files and lord knows how many other places where their name might be mentioned as well as creating a patch pak to overwrite the Aedui symbol.

    As for the Averni in 107BC... to my (limited) knowledge they had rather gotten the worst of the alliance between the Aedui and the Romans. Bituitus was defeated by the Romans in 123BC and a Roman 'Provincia' was established. I believe they are largely subjugated at 107BC and their lands would be limited to around Gergovia.

    Their glory days will return again, though, with Vercingetorix and his revolt against the Romans, but that won't be until 52BC.
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  14. #74
    EB Pointless Extras Botherer Member VandalCarthage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Most interesting. It strikes me that perhaps there is a way we can allow the player to try their hands at both dynastic lines. It would just be a matter of swapping the territory and changing the names and the Ptolomeioi and Seleukid factions would portray the other side of the struggle. We could have a Provincial Campaign for these 'alternate dynasties'. This would allow us to offer a different starting position and a different challenge to the Ptolomeioi, the Seleukids, we could represent a different Indo-Greek kingdom, a different Roman faction (though not at civil war, a game starting in Gaul facing the Cimibri & Teutoni would be very different from one as Marius facing the Numidians).
    I'm not certain what you mean... are you suggesting that in the various campiagns, cumbersome factions would be relegated to status as rebels to accomodate the others, and then reversed in the other campaign?

    So, there aren't enough faction slots to represent them both in the same campaign?
    "It is an error to divide people into the living and the dead: there are people who are dead-alive, and people who are alive_alive. The dead-alive also write, walk, speak, atc. But they make no mistakes; only machines make no mistakes, and they produce only dead things. The alive-alive are constantly in error, in search, in questions, in torment." - Yevgeny Zamyatin

  15. #75
    dictator by the people Member caesar44's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    [QUOTE=Epistolary Richard]The Ptolemies were indeed confusing, I believe that Ptolemy IX that VC refers to held power on three different occasions, swapping back and forth with Ptolemy X. But anyway, I would suggest you start with

    Thanks
    "The essence of philosophy is to ask the eternal question that has no answer" (Aristotel) . "Yes !!!" (me) .

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  16. #76

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Quote Originally Posted by VandalCarthage
    I'm not certain what you mean... are you suggesting that in the various campiagns, cumbersome factions would be relegated to status as rebels to accomodate the others, and then reversed in the other campaign?

    So, there aren't enough faction slots to represent them both in the same campaign?
    Two different Ptolemy, Seleukid & Indo-Greek factions? Perhaps there would be, but there wouldn't be room for anything else, based on the number of faction slots we know to be free at present.

    Also, you have to consider that to have, say, a Ptolemy IX and a Ptolemy X faction - you'd still need to put in the work to swap the Ptolemaioi stuff across into the other faction space you're using, which is all possible, but it would be at the level of having a patch.pak to overwrite some of the EB UI.

    My approach to these split 'dynastic' factions would be this:

    Ptolemy IX & Ptolemy X - which one of these really represents the Ptolemaioi in 107BC? An argument could be made for both sides.

    So instead of just picking one, we have two campaigns where the player has the choice which one he wants to play as - and that faction is the Ptolemaioi faction, and the other 'dynastic' faction is represented by strong independents. The first objective for the dynastic player would therefore be to defeat the other claimaint to his position.

    Doing Ptolemaic and Seleukid dynastic wars would be really interesting, and I know a lot of other people would be keen to have them, but I think they would really need their own EB campaign so they could be focused on - that way you could really do them properly with separate dynasts as separate factions.
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  17. #77
    EB Pointless Extras Botherer Member VandalCarthage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Ok, I understand Sounds good.

    I do however think that leaving Ptolemy IX's faction in the game as opposed to the other Seleucid faction, would be preferable. But of course I might be misunderstanding you again, and you meant that we'd have dynastic campaigns for both

    You're right though, it would be easier to just make another campaign - cut Iberia, West Africa, and Britain off to accomodate the faction slots.
    "It is an error to divide people into the living and the dead: there are people who are dead-alive, and people who are alive_alive. The dead-alive also write, walk, speak, atc. But they make no mistakes; only machines make no mistakes, and they produce only dead things. The alive-alive are constantly in error, in search, in questions, in torment." - Yevgeny Zamyatin

  18. #78

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Now the EB OB has been released, work will actually begin on converting it. Of course, those of you who've had a look in the text files will realise that it may not be exactly easy, so patience and coding help appreciated.
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  19. #79
    SOLVE LORA INFERNIS Member Shrapnel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    from Wiki

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_p...ican_provinces

    List of republican provinces

    241 BC Sicilia, propretorial province
    231 BC Corsica et Sardinia, propretorial province
    197 BC Hispania Citerior and Hispania Ulterior, propretorial provinces
    167 BC Illyricum, propretorial province
    146 BC Macedonia-Achaea, propretorial province
    146 BC Africa proconsularis, proconsular province
    129 BC Asia (province), proconsular province
    120 BC Gallia Transalpina (later Gallia Narbonensis), propretorial province


    107BC

    Events
    Gaius Marius arrived in North Africa to lead the war against Jugurtha, with a young quaestor name Lucius Cornelius Sulla as a subordinate.

    106BC

    Events
    Sulla captured Jugurtha, thus ending the Jugurthine War.
    The Chinese and the Persians establish diplomatic ties.

    Births
    January 3 - Cicero, Roman politician and author (d. 43 BC)
    September 29 - Pompey the Great, Roman general and politician
    Servius Sulpicius Rufus, Roman politician

    105BC

    Events
    October 6 - The Battle of Arausio, where the Cimbri destroy two Roman armies on the Rhône, is the most severe defeat of Roman forces since the Battle of Cannae.
    Marius, together with the consul P. Rutilius Rufus, initiated sweeping reforms of the Roman army.

    104BC

    Events
    Aristobulus I succeeds John Hyrcanus as king of Judea.
    Sima Qian starts writing his Shiji.
    Athenion starts a slave rebellion in Segesta.
    Gaius Marius is consul of Rome, the first of five successive consulships.
    Second Servile War starts in Sicily

    103BC

    Events
    Alexander Jannaeus succeeds his brother Aristobulus I as king of Judea.
    Tryphon and Athenion lead the Second Servile War in Sicily.

    102BC

    Events
    The Chinese capture Kokand.
    Marius defeats the Scirii and Teutones at Aix-en-Provence (or Battle of Aquae Sextae).
    Cimbri defeats the Consul Q. Lutatius Catulus in the Adige Valley.


    101BC

    Events
    The Roman consuls Marius and Catulus defeat the Cimbri in the Battle of Campi Raudii (or Battle of Vercellae).
    Ptolemy Apion inherits the kingdom of Cyrenaica.

    100BC

    Events
    Tigranes II of Armenia is placed on Armenian throne by the Parthians in exchange for the cession of "seventy valleys". (approximate date)
    Quintus Caecilus Metellus Numidicus is banished from Rome, as the only senator not to support the land redistribution plan of Lucius Appuleius Saturninus, and goes to Rhodes to study philosophy.

    Births
    July 13 - Julius Caesar, Roman general and politician (according to the Julian Calender's solar years)
    Titus Labienus, Caesar's chief lieutenant in the conquest of Gaul

    99BC

    Events
    Consul Manius Aquillius suppressed the rebellion in Sicily, thus ending the Second Servile War

    Births
    Lucretius, Latin philosopher and poet

    Deaths
    Gaius Servilius Glaucia - ally of Lucius Appuleius Saturninus (suicide)

    98BC

    Events
    The Roman Senate passed a resolution forbidding human sacrifice.


    96BC

    Events
    Start of the Taishi era in the Han Dynasty
    Cyrene left to the people of Rome by its ruler Ptolemy Apion.
    Seleucus VI Epiphanes becomes king of the Seleucid Empire following the death of his father Antiochus VIII Grypus, and defeating in battle Antiochus IX Cyzicenus.

    Deaths
    Antiochus VIII Grypus, king of the Seleucid Empire (murdered)
    Antiochus IX Cyzicenus, king of the Seleucid Empire (died in battle)

    95BC

    Events
    Philip I Philadelphus and Antiochus XI Ephiphanes succeed as co-rulers after the deposition of Seleucus VI Epiphanes.
    "Forty metre structure" at Emain Macha (near modern Armagh, Northern Ireland) built and destroyed, presumably for ritual or ceremonial purposes.

    Births
    Marcus Porcius Cato, the younger, Roman politician
    Clodia, daughter of Appius Claudius Pulcher and Caecilia Metella Balearica.

    94BC

    Deaths

    Bakru II bar Bakru, ruler of Osroene
    Events

    The first failed attempt to open a Latin rhetorical school.
    Lucius Cornelius Sulla elected praetor urbanus.


    92BC

    Events
    In the first diplomatic contact between Rome and Parthia, Sulla meets with a Parthian envoy, resulting in the parties recognizing Euphrates as a common frontier.
    Sulla repulsed Tigranes of Armenia from Cappadocia.
    Gaius Sentius becomes Roman governor of Macedonia, serves until 88.

    Births
    Publius Clodius Pulcher, Roman politician

    91BC

    Events
    Beginning of the Roman Social War
    Nicomedes III succeeds his father Nicomedes II as king of Bithynia.

    90BC

    Events
    The Etruscans are granted Roman citizenship.
    Corfinium in south-central Italy is the center of a rebellion against Rome.
    Nicomedes_III_of_Bithynia is defeated in battle by a coalition of Nicomedes' brother Socrates, and Mithridates_VI_of_Pontus. Nicomedes flees to Rome.

    Births
    Aulus Hirtius-consul 43 BC

    Deaths
    Dionysios Trax, Greek linguist
    Antiochus X Eusebes, king of the Seleucid Empire (approximate date)



    ALL OF THESE WERE RETREIVED FROM WIKIPEDIA
    Last edited by Shrapnel; 12-30-2005 at 13:34.

  20. #80

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    A WIP shot - I've managed to sort the background script to start in 107BC and removed the factions no longer present:




    And here's the intended faction distribution, including the newly revealed factions.

    Last edited by Epistolary Richard; 01-17-2006 at 00:23.
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  21. #81

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    When is this intened to end? Id really like it to go to the year of the four emperors, i reckon that could be scripted by locking the other family members in settlements deep in the Sahara which are impossible to get to (surrounded bt high mountains or something) so that when the time comes you spawn all the correct characters in the right places. But thats just my two cents as there are enoguh faction slots

    For the glory of Rome

  22. #82

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Ends at 14AD, same as EB, as we can't have additional 'later' units than those already in EB. Even a 121 year game still gives you 484 turns to play with - almost as long as the vanilla game.
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  23. #83
    EB Pointless Extras Botherer Member VandalCarthage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Looking great ER Love those two in the far East; though you may want to consider changing the map a bit around India to reflect just how wealthy their territory was.

    As an aside, I've never seen Heliokles II dated to that period. What's your source for that?
    Last edited by VandalCarthage; 01-17-2006 at 03:11.
    "It is an error to divide people into the living and the dead: there are people who are dead-alive, and people who are alive_alive. The dead-alive also write, walk, speak, atc. But they make no mistakes; only machines make no mistakes, and they produce only dead things. The alive-alive are constantly in error, in search, in questions, in torment." - Yevgeny Zamyatin

  24. #84

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    IMO, the eastern part of the map could definitely call for several more steppe powers. Namely Kangju, which would be in Kangha and Sogdiane provinces, with Kangha as their capital. The Wusun can probably just be conventionally given Wusun Yabgu. Dayuan, though not entirely a steppe power, can be given namely Dayuan province. By 107 BC, these powers were definitely on the current EB map by this time. Also, maybe some Indo-Sakae kingdoms could even do. Perhaps Sakae in Drangiane and Gandhara. Interestingly, just a few years after 107 BC, the Han empire conquered current "Yuezhi Yabgu" and made Dayuan a tributary vassal; of course I'm not suggesting the Han should be in as a faction, but perhaps make rebels more active in provinces in Dayuan or west of it to sort of "simulate" the Han conquest of those areas.
    Last edited by jurchen fury; 01-17-2006 at 05:17.
    "Why did you not say to him, -- He is simply a man, who in his eager pursuit of knowledge forgets his food, who in the joy of its attainment forgets his sorrows, and who does not perceive that old age is coming on?" - Kong Fu Zi, Lun Yu Book 7, Ch. 18


  25. #85
    EB Token Radical Member QwertyMIDX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    The Himyarites are rising to power at this time in Southern Arabia, if you want to put a faction down there. The Nabateans are more valid for this time frame than they would be in 272 BC as well.
    History is for the future not the past. The dead don't read.


    Operam et vitam do Europae Barbarorum.

    History does not repeat itself. The historians repeat one another. - Max Beerbohm

  26. #86

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Would be nice to use the spare faction slots of course, however, until this little project acquires artists/skinners/modellers etc. I'll just have to make do.

    Quote Originally Posted by VandalCarthage
    As an aside, I've never seen Heliokles II dated to that period. What's your source for that?
    Nothing fancy, of course. As I said up top, I'm not a historian and am quite happy to be corrected. As for where I got the info from, it was down to a choice between Strato I who seems to stop around 110BC and Heliokles II who pops up around 100BC. If it's a toss-up between the two I'd prefer to go with a faction leader who I can be confident will be around for a few years.
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  27. #87
    EB Pointless Extras Botherer Member VandalCarthage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Tarn dated his rule up to, and potentially past 100 BC (which is why I find that wikipedia article odd, as it's only cited source is Tarn), and even the Cambridge History of Iran (2003 reprint, incase you think it's out of date ) presents his rule as enduring around the same length of Antialkides (100 BC). So, I'd be inclined to say Strato would be a better bet... plus, for Indo-Greek history fans, it'd be really cool to have Menander and Agathokleia as the deceased faction founders

    Also, if Strato I didn't live past the end of his rule, it wasn't because he was old (obviously, considering he only ascended to his position after his mother's fairly recent regency).
    Last edited by VandalCarthage; 01-19-2006 at 21:58.
    "It is an error to divide people into the living and the dead: there are people who are dead-alive, and people who are alive_alive. The dead-alive also write, walk, speak, atc. But they make no mistakes; only machines make no mistakes, and they produce only dead things. The alive-alive are constantly in error, in search, in questions, in torment." - Yevgeny Zamyatin

  28. #88

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Good point, cooler name anyway. I'll make a couple of changes.

    Talking of names, I need to start completing the list of faction leaders and other named characters: quibbles, comments and additions to below gratefully received:

    Baktria/Indo-Greek
    Antialcidas - Faction Leader

    Baktria/Indo-Greek alternative faction
    Strato - Faction Leader
    Heliokles

    Ptolemaioi
    Ptolemy IX Soter - Faction leader

    Ptolemaioi alternative faction - I've decided to switch these two around
    Ptolemy X Alexander - Faction Leader

    Seleukid alternative faction
    Antiochus IX Cyzicenus - Faction leader

    Seleukid
    Antiochus VIII Grypus - Faction leader
    Seleucus (VI) Epiphanes
    Antiochus (XI) Ephiphanes Philadelphus
    Philip (I) Philadelphus
    Demetrius (III) Eucaerus

    Pontos
    Mithridates VI Eupator - faction leader
    Pharnaces (born yet?)

    Romani
    Gaius Marius - faction leader
    Lucius Cassius Longinus
    Lucius Cornelius Sulla

    Hayasdan
    Tigranes - faction leader
    Tigranes - faction heir

    Pahlava
    Mithridates II

    Sauromatae
    None recorded?

    Casse
    Morganorix

    Iberia
    None recorded?
    If no other names present themselves:
    Laro - faction leader
    Corocotta

    Aedui

    Averni

    Sweboz

    Yuezhi
    None known?

    Getai
    Choice of Rholes, Dapyx, Cotiso
    Last edited by Epistolary Richard; 01-20-2006 at 21:15.
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  29. #89
    EB Pointless Extras Botherer Member VandalCarthage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    As a note, for the Indo-Greeks under Strato, Sagala will need to be added as a city in a new province, since it was an Indo-Greek capital for Strato and both Menander's reigns.

    After 30 minutes in front of the damn computer with some of my books, I've put together a family tree for both Indo-Greek factions (with Indian dynastic names for faction leaders):

    Indo-Greeks under Antialkidas
    -Lysias = Founder, deceased age-68
    -Antialkidas (Maharajasa Jayadharasa Antialikitasa = Victorious King Antialkidas) Faction Leader age-42
    -Amyntas = brother age-27
    -Demetrius (III) = son of Antialkidas age-22
    -Heliokles (II) = brother age-39

    Indo-Greeks under Strato
    -Menander & Agathokleia = parents, deceased age-65(though if possible, it would be neat to have Agathokleia alive, age-63 either way)
    -Strato (Maharajasa Pracachasa Tratarasa Stratasa = Savior King Strato, Manifestation of God) = faction leader age-36
    -Polyxenios = brother age-33
    -Epander = brother age-29
    -Menander (II) = son of Strato age-15
    -Thraso = son of Strato age-12
    -Apollodotus = son of Strato age-1
    Also, I wanted to suggest switching these two as well, making Antialkidas' faction the alternate. Strato was the heir of the greatest Indo-Greek/Baktrian-Greek king of their couple of century run, and ruled a much larger kingdom (that probably extended a great deal East of our current boundaries). Antialkidas' borders can't actually even be set for certain, considering the way things had been going for his bunch.
    Last edited by VandalCarthage; 03-16-2006 at 21:51.
    "It is an error to divide people into the living and the dead: there are people who are dead-alive, and people who are alive_alive. The dead-alive also write, walk, speak, atc. But they make no mistakes; only machines make no mistakes, and they produce only dead things. The alive-alive are constantly in error, in search, in questions, in torment." - Yevgeny Zamyatin

  30. #90
    Gangrenous Member Justiciar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Should the Sauromatae be a unified power?
    When Adam delved and Eve span, Who was then the gentleman? From the beginning all men by nature were created alike, and our bondage or servitude came in by the unjust oppression of naughty men. For if God would have had any bondsmen from the beginning, he would have appointed who should be bound, and who free. And therefore I exhort you to consider that now the time is come, appointed to us by God, in which ye may (if ye will) cast off the yoke of bondage, and recover liberty. - John Ball

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